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Serperior Discussion

KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
Alright Prakhar, let's break this down...

Heatran and Talonflame, I'll give you. But I should point out...

mega metagross

...is outsped and dies to the combination of Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire so it can only act as a check (i.e., it can't switch in).

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 87-104 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(The second and third calcs are adjusted for Mega Metagross's stats since Smogon's damage calcs STILL don't have the new Megas uploaded)

heracross

Same as above, barring Scarf variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 100-118 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 250-294 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


It is not even viable in UU with stuff like aerodactyl

1HKO'ed with Stealth Rock up so it's only a check (again, can't switch in)

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 243-289 (80.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


No longer in UU, and considering its mega has one of the best defensive typings in the game regardless, that's not saying much. It also walls both Mega Charizards entirely, if you hadn't noticed.

mega amphy

Can't switch in AT ALL and isn't even a check because it can only 2HKO Serperior while Serperior does the same and outspeeds it.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 208-247 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 309-364 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 190-225 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

arcanine, beedrill, chandelure, darmanitan,etc.

Every one of these is 2HKO'ed, although Beedrill with Protect can afford itself the speed boost it needs to check Serperior. If Arcanine, Chandelure, or Darmanitan are not using a Scarf though, then they can't switch in because Serperior outspeeds them.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 116-136 (36.1 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 230-272 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 104-123 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 307-361 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

And then what do you know, you're left facing a Serperior at +4.

In RU, it faces Abomasnow

Just like Mega Ampharos, Abomasnow isn't even a reliable check because it can't switch in at all and is horribly outsped.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 109-129 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 270-322 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 541-640 (140.8 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 458-541 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile if it tries to do something like Ice Shard...

4 Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 116-138 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

amoonguss, braviary, drapion,

Can serve as a counter.


Can take a few hits but can't do much in return to Serperior. Also gets set up on pretty easily.


2HKO'ed by the combination of Leaf Storm and HP Fire and it's outsped so it can't switch in. Plus, it's only pulling about 65% max with Close Combat so it's not even a great check.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 309-367 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 160-189 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


2HKO'd by Leaf Storm if Stealth Rock is up so it can't switch in unless it has a Scarf.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 96-113 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 191-226 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


2HKO'ed once again. Plus, it barely takes out half of Serperior's HP total on offensive variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 113-133 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 225-265 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 278-328 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO


This one's a little closer due to Dragalge's special bulk, but with Stealth Rock it still falls to the combo of Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse. Dragalge can check an unboosted Serperior though, or a +2 Serperior but it'll be hanging by a thread so Rocks can't be up.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 40-47 (11.9 - 14%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 278-330 (83.2 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

It will still sit in NU...

Seriously, you didn't even think this through at all. Leaf Storm is practically a no-risk move for Serperior. Even if the thing that switches in resists it, Serperior has a +2 boost under its belt and just pelted them with a decently strong STAB, so barring things that resist Dragon/Fire/Grass, many of those things it outspeeds suddenly get picked off by a +2 attack. This is especially true if Stealth Rock is in play. And it's very easy to outspeed considerable portions of the metagame when you're sitting at a solid base 113 speed tier. No one expects it to be a top-tier threat in OU; far from it since it doesn't have good defensive typing, and it's very predictable with limited coverage. But to insist it's gonna sit in NU based solely on the fact that it has checks in each tier is extremely limited thinking. Especially since every single Pokemon has checks.
 
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Mye

Someone has to win..
Alright Prakhar, let's break this down...

Heatran and Talonflame, I'll give you. But I should point out...



...is outsped and dies to the combination of Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire so it can only act as a check (i.e., it can't switch in).

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 87-104 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(The second and third calcs are adjusted for Mega Metagross's stats since Smogon's damage calcs STILL don't have the new Megas uploaded)



Same as above, barring Scarf variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 100-118 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 250-294 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




1HKO'ed with Stealth Rock up so it's only a check (again, can't switch in)

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 243-289 (80.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



No longer in UU, and considering its mega has one of the best defensive typings in the game regardless, that's not saying much. It also walls both Mega Charizards entirely, if you hadn't noticed.



Can't switch in AT ALL and isn't even a check because it can only 2HKO Serperior while Serperior does the same and outspeeds it.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 208-247 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 309-364 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 190-225 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Every one of these is 2HKO'ed, although Beedrill with Protect can afford itself the speed boost it needs to check Serperior. If Arcanine, Chandelure, or Darmanitan are not using a Scarf though, then they can't switch in because Serperior outspeeds them.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 116-136 (36.1 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 230-272 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 104-123 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 307-361 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

And then what do you know, you're left facing a Serperior at +4.



Just like Mega Ampharos, Abomasnow isn't even a reliable check because it can't switch in at all and is horribly outsped.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 109-129 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 270-322 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 541-640 (140.8 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 458-541 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile if it tries to do something like Ice Shard...

4 Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 116-138 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage



Can serve as a counter.



Can take a few hits but can't do much in return to Serperior. Also gets set up on pretty easily.



2HKO'ed by the combination of Leaf Storm and HP Fire and it's outsped so it can't switch in. Plus, it's only pulling about 65% max with Close Combat so it's not even a great check.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 309-367 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 160-189 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



2HKO'd by Leaf Storm if Stealth Rock is up so it can't switch in unless it has a Scarf.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 96-113 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 191-226 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



2HKO'ed once again. Plus, it barely takes out half of Serperior's HP total on offensive variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 113-133 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 225-265 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 278-328 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO



This one's a little closer due to Dragalge's special bulk, but with Stealth Rock it still falls to the combo of Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse. Dragalge can check an unboosted Serperior though, or a +2 Serperior but it'll be hanging by a thread so Rocks can't be up.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 40-47 (11.9 - 14%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 278-330 (83.2 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Seriously, you didn't even think this through at all. Leaf Storm is practically a no-risk move for Serperior. Even if the thing that switches in resists it, Serperior has a +2 boost under its belt and just pelted them with a decently strong STAB, so barring things that resist Dragon/Fire/Grass, many of those things it outspeeds suddenly get picked off by a +2 attack. This is especially true if Stealth Rock is in play. And it's very easy to outspeed considerable portions of the metagame when you're sitting at a solid base 113 speed tier. No one expects it to be a top-tier threat in OU; far from it since it doesn't have good defensive typing, and it's very predictable with limited coverage. But to insist it's gonna sit in NU based solely on the fact that it has checks in each tier is extremely limited thinking. Especially since every single Pokemon has checks.

...and the ones who don't Smogon creates entire tiers for or just bans them entirely (like m-ray and moody, because we all know moody glalie wouldn't at all be overpowerful).

Also, I've been thinking a lot about this: will servine see any use if Serperior "is" banned from the lower tiers? I know it's a longshot, but it does have access to leaf storm and has similar special attack to serperior (base 60). Its speed is only base 83, but in the lower tiers it may not matter too much.
 

Divine Retribution

No war but class war
...and the ones who don't Smogon creates entire tiers for or just bans them entirely (like m-ray and moody, because we all know moody glalie wouldn't at all be overpowerful).

Also, I've been thinking a lot about this: will servine see any use if Serperior "is" banned from the lower tiers? I know it's a longshot, but it does have access to leaf storm and has similar special attack to serperior (base 60). Its speed is only base 83, but in the lower tiers it may not matter too much.

Ugh, I can't believe you're asking this. Every time anything ever gets banned, there's inevitably speculation as to whether or not its pre-evolution will be viable. People did it with Combusken when Blaziken was banned. They did it with Doublade when Aegislash was banned. They're doing it right now with Frogadier as Greninja is being suspected. Guess what? It never happens. These Pokemon's stats are irredeemable, and their evolutions being banned does not make them any more viable. The only instance where this would be a viable hypothetical is in the case of something like Chansey/Blissey (Eviolite notwithstanding) where the difference in overall effectiveness is negligible, and even then I'd still argue against it.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Alright Prakhar, let's break this down...

Heatran and Talonflame, I'll give you. But I should point out...



...is outsped and dies to the combination of Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire so it can only act as a check (i.e., it can't switch in).

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 87-104 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(The second and third calcs are adjusted for Mega Metagross's stats since Smogon's damage calcs STILL don't have the new Megas uploaded)



Same as above, barring Scarf variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 100-118 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 250-294 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




1HKO'ed with Stealth Rock up so it's only a check (again, can't switch in)

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 243-289 (80.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



No longer in UU, and considering its mega has one of the best defensive typings in the game regardless, that's not saying much. It also walls both Mega Charizards entirely, if you hadn't noticed.



Can't switch in AT ALL and isn't even a check because it can only 2HKO Serperior while Serperior does the same and outspeeds it.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 208-247 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 309-364 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 190-225 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Every one of these is 2HKO'ed, although Beedrill with Protect can afford itself the speed boost it needs to check Serperior. If Arcanine, Chandelure, or Darmanitan are not using a Scarf though, then they can't switch in because Serperior outspeeds them.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 116-136 (36.1 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 230-272 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 104-123 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 307-361 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

And then what do you know, you're left facing a Serperior at +4.



Just like Mega Ampharos, Abomasnow isn't even a reliable check because it can't switch in at all and is horribly outsped.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 109-129 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 270-322 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 541-640 (140.8 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 458-541 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile if it tries to do something like Ice Shard...

4 Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 116-138 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage



Can serve as a counter.



Can take a few hits but can't do much in return to Serperior. Also gets set up on pretty easily.



2HKO'ed by the combination of Leaf Storm and HP Fire and it's outsped so it can't switch in. Plus, it's only pulling about 65% max with Close Combat so it's not even a great check.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 309-367 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 160-189 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



2HKO'd by Leaf Storm if Stealth Rock is up so it can't switch in unless it has a Scarf.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 96-113 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 191-226 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



2HKO'ed once again. Plus, it barely takes out half of Serperior's HP total on offensive variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 113-133 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 225-265 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 278-328 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO



This one's a little closer due to Dragalge's special bulk, but with Stealth Rock it still falls to the combo of Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse. Dragalge can check an unboosted Serperior though, or a +2 Serperior but it'll be hanging by a thread so Rocks can't be up.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 40-47 (11.9 - 14%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 278-330 (83.2 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Seriously, you didn't even think this through at all. Leaf Storm is practically a no-risk move for Serperior. Even if the thing that switches in resists it, Serperior has a +2 boost under its belt and just pelted them with a decently strong STAB, so barring things that resist Dragon/Fire/Grass, many of those things it outspeeds suddenly get picked off by a +2 attack. This is especially true if Stealth Rock is in play. And it's very easy to outspeed considerable portions of the metagame when you're sitting at a solid base 113 speed tier. No one expects it to be a top-tier threat in OU; far from it since it doesn't have good defensive typing, and it's very predictable with limited coverage. But to insist it's gonna sit in NU based solely on the fact that it has checks in each tier is extremely limited thinking. Especially since every single Pokemon has checks.

I wouldn't say completely no risk because as far as I can see, the only safe counter for it in UU is AV sap sipper goodra...it can come in on the leaf storm and force a switch...d-pulse won;t be doing anything without the boost either...
 

KillerDraco

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say completely no risk because as far as I can see, the only safe counter for it in UU is AV sap sipper goodra...it can come in on the leaf storm and force a switch...d-pulse won;t be doing anything without the boost either...

Hence saying "practically" and not completely.

Are you really gonna nitpick that one sentence? The fact is, Serperior can get a free Leaf Storm off on virtually 99% of the Metagame, since most other Sap Sipper Pokemon not named Goodra aren't viable at all. If you see Team Preview and Goodra isn't on it, you're usually good to fire off a Leaf Storm since it gets the free +2 SpA boost regardless of whether the thing resists it or not.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Hence saying "practically" and not completely.

Are you really gonna nitpick that one sentence? The fact is, Serperior can get a free Leaf Storm off on virtually 99% of the Metagame, since most other Sap Sipper Pokemon not named Goodra aren't viable at all. If you see Team Preview and Goodra isn't on it, you're usually good to fire off a Leaf Storm since it gets the free +2 SpA boost regardless of whether the thing resists it or not.

Sorry...I wasn't trying to nitpick lol...I was more or less agreeing with you because I personally would like to see serp in UU and AV goodra was the first thing that came to mind as a viable counter yet no one talked about it so I thought I'd bring it up...that's all...
 

Lion Demon

Fairy Type Champion
I was going to talk about Sap Sipper too. Sap Sipper completely counter's contrary Serperior.
Here are all the Pokemon that can wall Serperior if it abuses Leaf Storm.

Deerling
Sawsbuck
Boufallant
Skiddo
Gogoat
Goomy
Sliggo
Goodra
 

Vern

Why not both?
I was going to talk about Sap Sipper too. Sap Sipper completely counter's contrary Serperior.
Here are all the Pokemon that can wall Serperior if it abuses Leaf Storm.

Deerling
Sawsbuck
Boufallant
Skiddo
Gogoat
Goomy
Sliggo
Goodra

Out of those, only goodra is UU viable and it usually runs gooey to stop physical hits that ruin it.

So serperior can be very viable in UU.
 
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XXD17

Draco rex
I was going to talk about Sap Sipper too. Sap Sipper completely counter's contrary Serperior.
Here are all the Pokemon that can wall Serperior if it abuses Leaf Storm.

Deerling
Sawsbuck
Boufallant
Skiddo
Gogoat
Goomy
Sliggo
Goodra

It's not just sap sipper but rather sap sipper in UU specifically...gogoat, bouffalant and sawsbuck (mind as well add SS azumarill, miltank, stantler, zebstrika and girafarig in there as well) aren't going to showing up in UU so goodra is really the only one...
 
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Prakhar

Normal: The abnormal
Alright Prakhar, let's break this down...

Heatran and Talonflame, I'll give you. But I should point out...



...is outsped and dies to the combination of Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Fire so it can only act as a check (i.e., it can't switch in).

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 104-123 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 87-104 (28.9 - 34.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(The second and third calcs are adjusted for Mega Metagross's stats since Smogon's damage calcs STILL don't have the new Megas uploaded)



Same as above, barring Scarf variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 100-118 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 250-294 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




1HKO'ed with Stealth Rock up so it's only a check (again, can't switch in)

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 243-289 (80.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock



No longer in UU, and considering its mega has one of the best defensive typings in the game regardless, that's not saying much. It also walls both Mega Charizards entirely, if you hadn't noticed.



Can't switch in AT ALL and isn't even a check because it can only 2HKO Serperior while Serperior does the same and outspeeds it.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Ampharos: 208-247 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 309-364 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 190-225 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



Every one of these is 2HKO'ed, although Beedrill with Protect can afford itself the speed boost it needs to check Serperior. If Arcanine, Chandelure, or Darmanitan are not using a Scarf though, then they can't switch in because Serperior outspeeds them.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 116-136 (36.1 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 230-272 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 104-123 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 209-246 (80 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 153-181 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 307-361 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

And then what do you know, you're left facing a Serperior at +4.



Just like Mega Ampharos, Abomasnow isn't even a reliable check because it can't switch in at all and is horribly outsped.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 109-129 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 270-322 (70.3 - 83.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 541-640 (140.8 - 166.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 458-541 (119.2 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile if it tries to do something like Ice Shard...

4 Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 116-138 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage



Can serve as a counter.



Can take a few hits but can't do much in return to Serperior. Also gets set up on pretty easily.



2HKO'ed by the combination of Leaf Storm and HP Fire and it's outsped so it can't switch in. Plus, it's only pulling about 65% max with Close Combat so it's not even a great check.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 126-148 (39 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 309-367 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 160-189 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



2HKO'd by Leaf Storm if Stealth Rock is up so it can't switch in unless it has a Scarf.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 96-113 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 191-226 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



2HKO'ed once again. Plus, it barely takes out half of Serperior's HP total on offensive variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 113-133 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 225-265 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 278-328 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 135-159 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO



This one's a little closer due to Dragalge's special bulk, but with Stealth Rock it still falls to the combo of Leaf Storm + Dragon Pulse. Dragalge can check an unboosted Serperior though, or a +2 Serperior but it'll be hanging by a thread so Rocks can't be up.

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 40-47 (11.9 - 14%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dragalge: 278-330 (83.2 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock



Seriously, you didn't even think this through at all. Leaf Storm is practically a no-risk move for Serperior. Even if the thing that switches in resists it, Serperior has a +2 boost under its belt and just pelted them with a decently strong STAB, so barring things that resist Dragon/Fire/Grass, many of those things it outspeeds suddenly get picked off by a +2 attack. This is especially true if Stealth Rock is in play. And it's very easy to outspeed considerable portions of the metagame when you're sitting at a solid base 113 speed tier. No one expects it to be a top-tier threat in OU; far from it since it doesn't have good defensive typing, and it's very predictable with limited coverage. But to insist it's gonna sit in NU based solely on the fact that it has checks in each tier is extremely limited thinking. Especially since every single Pokemon has checks.

I get it, i get it. most of those are checks and die to Leaf Storm and HP fire.
I dont have a lot in my defense right now...

It MAY come in UU, its possible in RU too..
 
People did it with Combusken when Blaziken was banned. They did it with Doublade when Aegislash was banned. They're doing it right now with Frogadier as Greninja is being suspected. Guess what? It never happens.

What? Doublade was a pretty solid defensive Pokemon in OU after Aegislash's ban before ORAS came out and made things like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross less relevant, and while Combusken may not be much in OU play, its insane Baton Passing abiltites combined with its decent sweeping capabilities got it outright banned from NU. So yes, it does occasionally happen, even of the pre-evo isn't used quite to the extent of success as its latter stage.

Try not to be so snappy with people when you don't know what you're talking about.
 

Divine Retribution

No war but class war
What? Doublade was a pretty solid defensive Pokemon in OU after Aegislash's ban before ORAS came out and made things like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross less relevant, and while Combusken may not be much in OU play, its insane Baton Passing abiltites combined with its decent sweeping capabilities got it outright banned from NU. So yes, it does occasionally happen, even of the pre-evo isn't used quite to the extent of success as its latter stage.

Try not to be so snappy with people when you don't know what you're talking about.

I actually know exactly what I'm talking about. When did Doublade ever get more than fringe usage on the same caliber as such top-tier threats as Pikachu, Cottonee, and Megaless Charizard? Never. Not once. It's not a viable defensive Pokemon, white its defensive typing is decent, it leaves it weak to Ground, Fire, and Ghost, which run rampant all around the tier, as well as Pursuit and making it even more vulnerable to Knock Off than other Eviolite users. It suffers from all the same shortcomings that ban opposers posed for Aegislash, but excels in none of the areas that Aegislash does. On top of that it plays completely differently than Aegislash, being a wall (if you can even call it that) rather than a wallbreaker. Combusken being banned from NU =/= Combusken being a relevant threat to replace Blaziken. That has to be the stupidest argument I've ever seen you make. Usually when you say something so ridiculous I can shake my head and move on, but that goes a bit far.

Try not to be so snappy when you don't have a damn clue what you're talking about. The statistics are not in your favour, although I suppose you're used to arguing despite that. Show me a single month where Doublade got more usage than something idiotic like Pikachu in OU and maybe you'll have the beginnings of a point. Then you'll need to explain how it fills the hole that Aegislash left in OU, even if it doesn't do so as well as Aegislash. Finally, you'd have to come up with a way that Doublade can perform all the roles that Aegislash once performed, again even if it doesn't do them as well as Aegislash did. Then you can say that Doublade was a viable replacement to Aegislash. Good luck!
 

Snorby

Snorby
Show me a single month where Doublade got more usage than something idiotic like Pikachu in OU and maybe you'll have the beginnings of a point.

147 Doublade 0.46939%

168 Pikachu 0.31746%

This is from this month, when Doublade isn't even actually very useful anymore, but it still fulfills your requirements.

Then you'll need to explain how it fills the hole that Aegislash left in OU, even if it doesn't do so as well as Aegislash.

Steel/Ghost typing scared away three of the best stallbreakers in post-Aegi XY, namely Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, and Mega Gardevoir. It filled an important hole in synergy on stall teams that used to be filled by SubToxic Aegislash, and while it doesn't do the job as well as SubToxic Aegislash, it

Finally, you'd have to come up with a way that Doublade can perform all the roles that Aegislash once performed, again even if it doesn't do them as well as Aegislash did.

That's simply ridiculous, because the goal of using Doublade was not to be a baby Aegislash, it was to fill the hole in synergy on stall teams left by Aegislash, which it pulled off with aplomb.

You yourself didnt initially ask for a perfect replacement for Aegislash, you said that Doublade wasn't ever viable, which is just plain wrong. Even still Doublade is in C+ Rank on Smogon, and it used to be higher. If it's on the viability rankings, that would imply it's at least somewhat viable.

Nobody's trying to say Doublade took over as Aegislash 2.0. All we are saying is give peace a chance you're f*cking wrong when you say:

Ugh, I can't believe you're asking this. Every time anything ever gets banned, there's inevitably speculation as to whether or not its pre-evolution will be viable. People... did it with Doublade when Aegislash was banned... Guess what? It never happens. These Pokemon's stats are irredeemable, and their evolutions being banned does not make them any more viable...

Have a nice day :)
____________________________________________

Anyhow, Serperior will likely be a fun cleaner in OU as well. Once you can get rid of the likes of Heatran, Talonflame, and Pinsir, Serperior can pretty much walk in and clean up.
 
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I actually know exactly what I'm talking about. When did Doublade ever get more than fringe usage on the same caliber as such top-tier threats as Pikachu, Cottonee, and Megaless Charizard? Never. Not once.

Usage stats do not correlate directly to viability. Does this seriously have to be explained in every competitive discussion in this sub-forum?

If you must know, Doublade actually did have a decent amount of usage in official Smogon tournaments, which is basically the highest level of play you can find. For example, it received more usage in Smogon Tour 18 than things like Conkeldurr and Sylveon and was tied with Mandibuzz.

It's not a viable defensive Pokemon, white its defensive typing is decent, it leaves it weak to Ground, Fire, and Ghost, which run rampant all around the tier, as well as Pursuit and making it even more vulnerable to Knock Off than other Eviolite users. It suffers from all the same shortcomings that ban opposers posed for Aegislash, but excels in none of the areas that Aegislash does. On top of that it plays completely differently than Aegislash, being a wall (if you can even call it that) rather than a wallbreaker.

Lol, where have you been the last several months? Right after Aegislash was banned, Doublade rose up as a decent and very much viable choice to fill in the holes Aegislash left in the metagame for defensive teams. It was ranked somewhere around B Rank in the OU Viability Ranking thread for a reason. Like MMS mentioned, it was an answer to key threats to stall like Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, and Terrakion, each of which became more common and better and stopped running coverage moves used specifically for Aegislash after the thing got banned. The fact that you can't see how it would be viable is stunning and makes me seriously wonder how much you actually play this game.

Combusken being banned from NU =/= Combusken being a relevant threat to replace Blaziken. That has to be the stupidest argument I've ever seen you make. Usually when you say something so ridiculous I can shake my head and move on, but that goes a bit far.

Way to move the goalposts, dude. You never said this conversation was limited to upper tiers, and Mye specifically mentioned lower tiers himself. If you intended to only discuss a Pokemon's viability in the exact tier that it's latter stage was banned from, then you should have clarified that.

Try not to be so snappy when you don't have a damn clue what you're talking about. The statistics are not in your favour, although I suppose you're used to arguing despite that. Show me a single month where Doublade got more usage than something idiotic like Pikachu in OU and maybe you'll have the beginnings of a point.

I encourage you to not use ladder stats as a legitimate argument for viability, because no one is going to take an argument like that seriously. If you're going to use any usage stats, it needs to be from real upper level tournament play. Please look these up next time you want to shoot your mouth off about usage because you'll see that Doublade actually did get notable tour usage.

Then you'll need to explain how it fills the hole that Aegislash left in OU, even if it doesn't do so as well as Aegislash. Finally, you'd have to come up with a way that Doublade can perform all the roles that Aegislash once performed, again even if it doesn't do them as well as Aegislash did. Then you can say that Doublade was a viable replacement to Aegislash. Good luck!

Oh wow, you aren't just moving the goalposts, you're outright changing the game. Never once in your original post did you say that a pre-evo just can't do everything its banned older sibling did.You said that they're never viable, which is untrue. Doublade may have become worse with the arrival of ORAS, but it was certainly a viable choice after the Aegislash ban, and no serious competitive player would tell you otherwise. It didn't do everything that Aegislash did since its mixed offensive stats were much lower, but its unique defensive typing and solid Eviolite-boosted bulk gave it a decent niche as a defensive Pokemon.

Okay, so serious question: are you an active competitive player? Because this isn't the first time you've said something outlandish that no one who has played actively for a while would say. Kinda like back during the Baton Pass suspect test when you thought that SmashPass was the problem and full chains weren't even an issue when in fact the latter was the whole reason that Baton Pass was being suspected. I encourage you to play the metagame more and participate in some more serious competitive discussions on a place like Smogon to strengthen your competitive knowledge before making posts like these. Because I guarantee that if you tried going around a community like Smogon with higher levels of competitive discussion saying the things about Doublade that you did here, you'd be laughed off the stage.
 

Mye

Someone has to win..
Wow, I was all ready to counter this guy's argument but jesusfreak and MMS did it for me...

In all seriousness though, with PU being an official tier (because rather than calling it "FU" due to the pokemon being offensive, they decided to name the tier after what people would say if the decency of these pokemon was classified as smell) I'm thinking Servine might actually see use. While leaf storm is resisted by quite a few things in the tier (literally 60% of the tier is either poison, bug, grass, fire, flying, or has sap sipper) access to glare in addition to its weird speed tier actually allows it to outspeed everything in the tier barring ninjask when they're para'd. In addition, despite its low offensive/only average defensive stats, leaf storm and eviolite combined make it pretty damn scary.
 

Aeon™

Rock Ultimate
Wow, I was all ready to counter this guy's argument but jesusfreak and MMS did it for me...

In all seriousness though, with PU being an official tier (because rather than calling it "FU" due to the pokemon being offensive, they decided to name the tier after what people would say if the decency of these pokemon was classified as smell) I'm thinking Servine might actually see use. While leaf storm is resisted by quite a few things in the tier (literally 60% of the tier is either poison, bug, grass, fire, flying, or has sap sipper) access to glare in addition to its weird speed tier actually allows it to outspeed everything in the tier barring ninjask when they're para'd. In addition, despite its low offensive/only average defensive stats, leaf storm and eviolite combined make it pretty damn scary.

FU is the tier below PU lol, it's the current metagame of the month.
 

Mye

Someone has to win..
FU is the tier below PU lol, it's the current metagame of the month.

Yeah, I just checked pokemon online and saw that they introduced that tier (mind you, it took me about 10 mins to stop giggling after I read "we're highlighting FU this month" ).

Also, I was thinking about potential sets for Serperior in UU, and I'm thinking we could see a few leftovers/Petaya/Salac berry sets appear. Its defenses aren't good, but do allow it to survive a couple of hits, and at +1 speed it's pretty scary. I'd need to do some calcs but I'm pretty sure it can actually outspeed and survive quite a few non-STAB ice beams if it uses glare on the switch and packs leftovers.
 
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XXD17

Draco rex
Yeah, I just checked pokemon online and saw that they introduced that tier (mind you, it took me about 10 mins to stop giggling after I read "we're highlighting FU this month" ).

Also, I was thinking about potential sets for Serperior in UU, and I'm thinking we could see a few leftovers/Petaya/Salac berry sets appear. Its defenses aren't good, but do allow it to survive a couple of hits, and at +1 speed it's pretty scary. I'd need to do some calcs but I'm pretty sure it can actually outspeed and survive quite a few non-STAB ice beams if it uses glare on the switch and packs leftovers.

So you are thinking a more defensive set with max HP rather the max SA, max speed set that everyone is expecting? In that regard, is that even viable? Max HP (or max SD/ D) and max speed that is...I know there's a volc set out there that relies on max defense and HP I think to allow it to set up QD...I know that volc already has a crazy SA to begin with so that set is super viable...I ask because serp is completely different since it is pretty mediocre to begin with and can't afford to not run max SA...
 
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