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Should college and work places make the shot mandatory

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
If religious exemptions don’t count when it comes to LGBT discrimination, where the basis is it harms other people, it should be the same logic for vaccines when necessary, as they harm other people.

It’s a pretty consistent idea that having a religion should not give you an excuse to do something that harms other people without consequence.
 

Vernikova

Champion
If religious exemptions don’t count when it comes to LGBT discrimination, where the basis is it harms other people, it should be the same logic for vaccines when necessary, as they harm other people.

It’s a pretty consistent idea that having a religion should not give you an excuse to do something that harms other people without consequence.
What are you referring to?

There are plenty of states that have laws that don't protect LGBT people from (negative) discrimination in some environments, including medical environments. If you mean a recent SCOTUS decision, that was worded in a way to include LGBT people in with discrimination through, which is illegal on the federal level (e.g. you can't punish this man for dating a man when you are okay a woman dating a man). In any case, the reasoning for LGBT protections isn't relevant here since LGBT protections are based on negative discrimination on a protected class.

And while some states agree with your reasoning, most have laws protecting religious groups and even moral reasons to not be vaccinated. Furthermore, it doesn't look like the exemptions are a major reason for high or low vaccination rates among children, so attacking the exemption seems pointless at actually getting a relevant number of children to be vaccinated.

More generally, while states can establish consequences for not being vaccinated when trying to make a mandate (e.g. fines), they can't force anyone to be vaccinated even with a mandate. Even mandating vaccination, though, will fall under scrutiny and be challenged in the courts because they can really only impose a mandates under specific circumstances, the last of which being, if I remember correctly, when there was a disease with an 80% fatality rate decades ago that could possibly be spread around.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
Literally going around forcing vaccines wouldn’t work from a practical perspective, which is why you make it so specific places like schools and workplaces won’t allow people until they’re vaccinated. If they don’t want to get vaccinated give them consequences until they do.

Plus it’s still very easy to discriminate against LGBT people if you don’t say it, my point is more that if you’re using religious exemptions in a situation where it harms other people, it’s not a good excuse and shouldn’t be allowed.
 

Vernikova

Champion
Literally going around forcing vaccines wouldn’t work from a practical perspective, which is why you make it so specific places like schools and workplaces won’t allow people until they’re vaccinated. If they don’t want to get vaccinated give them consequences until they do.

Plus it’s still very easy to discriminate against LGBT people if you don’t say it, my point is more that if you’re using religious exemptions in a situation where it harms other people, it’s not a good excuse and shouldn’t be allowed.
I can understand that being a far-off goal for some, but it's not practical for the present time. 46 states have laws allowing for religious exemptions, and state schools will have to abide by those laws until the courts rule otherwise (and there are cases going through the courts now, probably).

Removing religious exemptions isn't a practical solution for the time being, and it may not even be an effective solution since most unvaccinated adults aren't in school anyway. Do we even have numbers for the amount who are using the religious exemptions in schools?

At the same time, I don't think it's in our long-term best interest to continue dumbing down our population, which is why I would recommend a compromise by allowing more work-from-home jobs and online classes to be accessible while increasing incentives to be vaccinated.

States also need to be more creative. In Ohio, they had a lottery, I think, which increased vaccination rates by 45%. While West Virginia's lottery didn't spur an increase, it still pushed more people to receive the vaccine. There are plenty of alternate strategies that don't force more people into poverty or paying for fines beyond their means, which was a big reason that Trump was elected in the first place.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
It’s not just schools considering we aren’t at herd immunity levels and likely will never be unless changes are made. And we are on a little bit of a time limit considering vaccinated people will eventually need another shot to keep up, and that means if they don’t all get one then we just make things worse again.

But yes, bribing people is effective and whatever means work should be used, and people should be able to work from home if able, but there should be some negative consequences for not doing the bare minimum to help in a pandemic, which in this case is access to places that could spread the deadly virus.

Granted I don’t see how this is dumbing down the population either. When we have a good 25% of Americans beginning to think that vaccines are putting secret microchips in you the floor can’t be much lower than that.
 

Zora

perpetually tired
No, I would not entertain religious exemptions. This is like, a whole other discussion, but white Evangicalism is a more so a political ideology than a religion. In the context of COVID vaccines, this should be obvious: are most of these people refusing vaccines because of something Jesus said, or because of something Fox News said? Note: Amish are not most people; using them as a shield is some whataboutism.

Religious exemptions have a time and place, but vaccines passports for accessing schools and workplace ain't it. But 46 states allow it! yeah, and 46 states are wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Like, literally, California literally had to ban all non-medical exemptions in 2016 (and had to further limit medical exemptions in 2019) because of how often it was used to enable politically-driven vaccine hesitancy.
 

Vernikova

Champion
It’s not just schools considering we aren’t at herd immunity levels and likely will never be unless changes are made. And we are on a little bit of a time limit considering vaccinated people will eventually need another shot to keep up, and that means if they don’t all get one then we just make things worse again.

But yes, bribing people is effective and whatever means work should be used, and people should be able to work from home if able, but there should be some negative consequences for not doing the bare minimum to help in a pandemic, which in this case is access to places that could spread the deadly virus.

Granted I don’t see how this is dumbing down the population either. When we have a good 25% of Americans beginning to think that vaccines are putting secret microchips in you the floor can’t be much lower than that.
I agree that negative consequences will probably be necessary to increase vaccination rates, but it's important to remember that disproportionately, most are low-income minorities and low-income people in general, who are already experiencing hardship due to this past year. There's a good reason why states aren't pushing for mandates right now, and it's because it will hurt the people who can't afford to be hurt because of general distrust of these vaccines, which can only hurt. And it may get them voted out, I guess, and increase further resentment and mistrust in government.
No, I would not entertain religious exemptions. This is like, a whole other discussion, but white Evangicalism is a more so a political ideology than a religion. In the context of COVID vaccines, this should be obvious: are most of these people refusing vaccines because of something Jesus said, or because of something Fox News said? Note: Amish are not most people; using them as a shield is some whataboutism.

Religious exemptions have a time and place, but vaccines passports for accessing schools and workplace ain't it. But 46 states allow it! yeah, and 46 states are wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Like, literally, California literally had to ban all non-medical exemptions in 2016 (and had to further limit medical exemptions in 2019) because of how often it was used to enable politically-driven vaccine hesitancy.
The fact of the matter is what you think ought to be the case isn't the same as what can practically be done to increase them now.
A federal judge did confirm that a university can have a vaccine mandate.
Of course it was allowed. They followed state law and kept exemptions intact:

"The university will recognize certain medical and religious exemptions to its requirement, but IU officials say unvaccinated students will need to continue following some coronavirus mitigation strategies the university is easing for other students who are fully vaccinated. "
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I think it depends on accessibility. You can't demand people to have been vaccinated when accessibility to those vaccines is limited by vaccine supply and age restrictions themselves, if there is no reasonable way to follow the doctrine (because it's not your turn to get vaccinated yet so you can only get it by cheating the system somehow), a rule making it obligatory is just unfair. It's one thing to make it obligatory in for instance pools, restaurants, or gyms, where you can live without access, but basic needs like education or your workplace not so much.
 
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Teravolt

cilan lives forever in my heart
Why are you associating Christanity let alone religion with white evangelicalism? Islam? Hinduism? Buddhist? Mormon? Orthodox? Anglican? Catholic?
It’s because the white evangelical subgroup of Christians are more likely to oppose vaccination than other sects of Christianity, or other religions.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
The thing is we are on a time limit with vaccines, we can only wait so long before we need to take stricter and stricter actions. It’s kind of a telling sign to how well climate change is going to go when things get really bad.

The messaging is there, the incentives are there, and we get new science almost every day about how well the vaccines could be vs how bad Covid is now and long term. I do not know what else we can really do to push how safe and effective they are with positive benefits.

Also white evangelicalism is a death cult field by racism, but they do control the GOP now, who are the main force against vaccines, so they have to be brought up in some way
 

Teravolt

cilan lives forever in my heart
Majority=\=only religion sub group opposing the vaccine. There are Muslims and Jewish groups who had spoken out against the vaccine as well. Obviously most white evangelical are nuts but they aren’t the only religious people opposing it. Even if that group was removed from this conversation there would still be religion opposition and there are plenty of articles on this.
This is true.
 

Sham

The Guardian of War
This is true.
Yeah I didn’t mean to come off like I was disagreeing with you. Most misinformation about the vaccine is coming from white evangelicalism but I don’t believe that’s the full story. That’s all.
 

Vernikova

Champion
Most misinformation about the vaccine is coming from white evangelicalism but I don’t believe that’s the full story
I don't even think that is the case to be honest. According to a recent report, the biggest spreaders of misinformation are:
  1. Joseph Mercola
  2. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
  3. Ty and Charlene Bollinger
  4. Sherri Tenpenny
  5. Rizza Islam
  6. Rashid Buttar
  7. Erin Elizabeth
  8. Sayer Ji
  9. Kelly Brogan
  10. Christiane Northrup
  11. Ben Tapper
  12. Kevin Jenkins
And none of their example posts seem to be Christian-oriented: https://252f2edd-1c8b-49f5-9bb2-cb5...d/f4d9b9_b7cedc0553604720b7137f8663366ee5.pdf

The thing is we are on a time limit with vaccines, we can only wait so long before we need to take stricter and stricter actions. It’s kind of a telling sign to how well climate change is going to go when things get really bad.

The messaging is there, the incentives are there, and we get new science almost every day about how well the vaccines could be vs how bad Covid is now and long term. I do not know what else we can really do to push how safe and effective they are with positive benefits.

Also white evangelicalism is a death cult field by racism, but they do control the GOP now, who are the main force against vaccines, so they have to be brought up in some way
The solution, I think, will probably have to be some type of federal (executive) or federal legislative gymnastics (any of which will be challenged). You won't get the necessary cooperation from the states.

In any case, it was nice to have this discussion with you. I'm going to bow out now in order to not continue taking up space in this thread.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
The fact that citizens of the United States got lucky enough to be in the first place where an actual scientific miracle drug is completely free, available at every pharmacy without an appointment, many places are literally paying them in cash and paid time-off to go get it, and it can literally save your life/prevent long-term heart and lung damage and save the lives of your neighbors and family, but still not getting it is the most depressing thing in politics right now.

They aren't just not getting it out of laziness or cost, but they are adamantly refusing to get it, encouraging others to do the same, and actively making life difficult and more dangerous for the people who did get it by allowing variants to brew inside them.


Just read as people who are dying in the hospital say they don’t want to take something because of pushed misinformation.

All these ****s deserve whatever they get, but I just wish that in doing so they didn't affect the rest of us
 

Gamzee Makara

Flirtin' With Disaster
Hence why I said BEYOND Amish.

As in, MORE isolated than them.

THey shouldn't teach people to skip, scan and skim text...
 

Zora

perpetually tired
Why are you associating Christanity let alone religion with white evangelicalism? Islam? Hinduism? Buddhist? Mormon? Orthodox? Anglican? Catholic?
Because they're the group that matters. Bona fide no-exceptions-allowed religious objections to vaccines exist, but they are not common (maybe 1-in-200 people). And people lie about having religious reasons when asking to be exempt from vaccines (sauce 1 sauce 2); the second article might suggest that for states where religion is the only non-medical reason to skip out on vaccines, 85% of folks are lying. That's because the main driving behind vaccine hesitancy isn't, nor ever has been, religion; it's BS like how MMR causes autism. COVID has much more successful anti-vax propaganda and struck a chord with Trump's base, of which the highest religious contingent are white Evangelicals, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

it really is as simple as "99% of religious exemptions from a hypothetical COVID vaccine mandate will be religious fundies who mistook the word of Tuckerson for the word of Christ."

------
Edit:
A point I neglected to mention is why white Evangelicalism is uniquely influential on the GOP. The elephant in the room is that white Evangelicalism and white supremacy are intimately intertwined, as Butler discusses briefly here (she has a whole ass book about this); most present day religious wedge issues really do stem from school re-segregation via "outwardly religious, inwardly white" schools (think Bob Jones U). Basically, why a diverse group of denominations may form the religious right, white Evangelicals form the backbone of leadership, agenda setting, and rhetoric of said religious right. Evangelicals are loyal to the GOP because they shape the GOP; other denominations, not so much. And yes, white Evangelicals being uniquely vaccine hesitant is a noted trend.
 
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U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
I work as a microbiology professor and I can say my university is on the vaccine train.

We got you to show us your meningitis vaccine to be on campus. We can make you do the same to this vaccine.

Also, I know several of the businesses and researchers who offer internships require the vaccine or a medical exemption.
 

bobjr

You ask too many questions
Staff member
Moderator
The only real christian religion that really has a justifiable religious excuse are Jehovah's Witnesses, since they're so determined they refuse blood and would rather die.

Anything else it's people usually warping the religion to their views, instead of anything the religion actually preaches.
 
Yes, Polio vaccines are mandatory here. For anyone working in healthcare Hepatitis A, B and Tetanus vaccines are mandatory as well. There's been talk here to make it mandatory for at least healthcare workers here, since there's antivaxxers among them as well (why they're doing a job that completely contradicts it is a mystery to me), but ultimately they decided not to make it mandatory.
 
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