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Should disobedient Pokemon be disqualified from official battles?

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matt0044

Well-Known Member
Squirtle getting DQ'd was an extreme exception to the norm. I figured that the writers only called it against Ash because they were setting him up to lose before the battle even started.

Plus, they were making stuff up as they went along then.
 

Rovian

Kodoku no Koori
No, as long as they stay on the field and battle.


Pokemon battles are meant for a Trainer to bond with their Pokemon in the anime not to just battle and win like in the games
This...
Bonding with the Pokemon is fine, but tournaments are official battles meant to show the skill of the trainer




Oh, I know! It must be because Charizard wasn't being disobedient in that fight.
Wasn't Charizard battling for himself? Also, didn't Charizard burn Ash when he tried to give him a command?
 

ConUxie223

Kalos Trap Queen
And if someone gets sent to the hospital from a stray attack? Remember when Dragonite went crazy?




Gee, I wonder why...

Oh, I know! It must be because Charizard wasn't being disobedient in that fight.
Gee, I wonder why people forget that Dragonite was obidient for most of the battle with Ash until his Krokorok evolved when he was about to lose and won the battle that way! Charzaird obeyed Ash for the same amount of time that Dragonite obeyed Iris that episode but it didnt cost Ash anything because why? Charzaird was obidient for no reason, there was no story behind it.. No focus was put on it before the OI episode. Dragonite got 2 episode dedicated to Iris talking to Dragonite along with Cynthia. What did Ash do before the Blaine battle? Nothing. He did nothing expect send Charzaird out to battle because Charzaird had a little rivalry with Magamar. And OMG, Dragonite would not hace hurt someone! Alder or Cynthia would have intervened way before that happend. Notice how two Champions let it be disobdient, so that Iris could see where she needs to improve. Who helped Charzaird and Ash grow? Oh right, no one. It took a stand-alone episode to make Charzaird get over his disobidience. So yes, some folks on Bulbagarden are still butthurt over Dragonite but ignore Charzaird's disobdience flaws =__=

Why should they have complained? Charizard was obedient against Blaine.
Notice how Charizard was disqualified for not listening in the Indigo League and automatically counted as a loss in the first Blaine fight for not listening.

Iris should have been disqualified in the WTJC, she had no control over Dragonite, the first and second round were bad enough, but the 3rd had it rampaging and endangering everyone there, and Iris just stood there and watched. Bonding with the Pokemon is fine, but tournaments are official battles meant to show the skill of the trainer, a disobedient Pokemon has no place there, since it defeats the very purpose of the tournament. If the method Iris used to win the first 2 rounds is allowed, then anyone can win as long as someone lends/gives them a ridiculously powerful Pokemon. They don't even need to issue a command, just let it out of the ball and recall at the end.

Iris didn't win a single round in that tournament, Dragonite did it all on his own, yet she takes the credit. That makes no sense and she should have been disqualified the moment it was clear she had no control in round 2.

I dont even think I should reply to this.. At least Iris used Dragonite to bond with it. Which she did by the time the 3rd round started, then he was hurt when he trusted Iris a little to order him around so he went a bit beserk. He won the first two fights without Iris, yeah, boo-hoo.. But by the time the 3rd round rolled around he was obeying Iris's orders! Something no disobdient Pokemon was able to do in 2 episodes, which proves that battling and consulting a Pokemon will help to both bond with them and help them obey. And wants again.. I say.. Dragonite- it happend get over it. Disobidient Pokemon will battle in matches because the officials have no right to correct a Trainer on their battling style. And the reason Charzaird was disqualified in Kanto, was because it was Kanto! The show had just started..
 

An00bis

Wicked Witch
I was about to ignore this, but ...

Disobidient Pokemon will battle in matches because the officials have no right to correct a Trainer on their battling style.

Yes they do. That's their jobs.

We won't even have to speculate on it because it actually happened before. In " Crusin' for a Brusin' " we saw the Judges stop the match against May even though Bulbasaur could still fight. It's not only the official's job to keep score. They have to make sure that all the Trainers and Pokemon play fair so no one gets hurt.

I suspect that the only reason that Addler and Cynthia let the fight continue was because it looked like Ash had the situation under control.
 

PAndrews

Well-Known Member
So what? Iris still would've won if D-nite listened to her. The power of that beast is there whether it listens or not. It would've been great if it listened to Iris, but the writers were establishing a story.

Despite Georgia being a rather pathetic and sore loser, it is exactly as she stated, Dragonite won, Iris didn't, she just took the credit.
Iris didn't do anything to earn that beasts power, Dragonite trained itself to that level and then fought while ignoring her alltogether.
So in what way is that Iris win? All she did was throw a Pokeball at it, Dragonite did EVERYTHING else itself (including its own capture :p).

If she bonds with it and gets it to listen to her properly, its a different story, but if it basically fights on its own, then its his wins and nobody else's

Gee, I wonder why people forget that Dragonite was obidient for most of the battle with Ash until his Krokorok evolved when he was about to lose and won the battle that way! Charzaird obeyed Ash for the same amount of time that Dragonite obeyed Iris that episode but it didnt cost Ash anything because why? Charzaird was obidient for no reason, there was no story behind it.. No focus was put on it before the OI episode. Dragonite got 2 episode dedicated to Iris talking to Dragonite along with Cynthia. What did Ash do before the Blaine battle? Nothing. He did nothing expect send Charzaird out to battle because Charzaird had a little rivalry with Magamar. And OMG, Dragonite would not hace hurt someone! Alder or Cynthia would have intervened way before that happend. Notice how two Champions let it be disobdient, so that Iris could see where she needs to improve. Who helped Charzaird and Ash grow? Oh right, no one. It took a stand-alone episode to make Charzaird get over his disobidience. So yes, some folks on Bulbagarden are still butthurt over Dragonite but ignore Charzaird's disobdience flaws =__=

Did you not watch any Kanto episodes or something?
It was stated after evolving Charmeleon viewed Ash as weak and didn't want to listen anymore. He later only participated in battles if he found his opponent worthy. If not, he took a nap.
He found Magmar a worthy opponent and decided to fight him, he found Charmander semi-worthy as a fellow firetype, but beyond that all he ever did was sleep unless a Pokemon annoyed him, such as Tauros (then went on a rampage). This was flat-out stated and shown.
This also cost Ash the Indigo League and a loss vs Blaine the first time they fought.

As for how they grew, Ash gained the remaining badges, entered a league and continued getting stronger, add that to spending a full night defrosting and caring for a severely injured Charizard and you see why Charizard stopped viewing Ash as weak and started to respect him again (which he did as a Charmander before). Beyond that the only major thing Charizard did was beat Blaine. Its only other event was the League, where it got disqualified.

Now take Iris and Dragonite.
Dragonite ignores her completely 2 battles in a row, then listens in battle 3 for no apparent reason outside of plot convenience (2 conversations mean little, especially when getting ignored), then goes on a rampage again after taking 1 hit from Krookodile. And yes, Dragonite could have seriously hurt someone, he was firing wildly into the area, including freezing the wall the spectators were sitting behind. Firing slightly higher meant frozen/crispy spectators.

I dont even think I should reply to this.. At least Iris used Dragonite to bond with it. Which she did by the time the 3rd round started, then he was hurt when he trusted Iris a little to order him around so he went a bit beserk. He won the first two fights without Iris, yeah, boo-hoo.. But by the time the 3rd round rolled around he was obeying Iris's orders! Something no disobdient Pokemon was able to do in 2 episodes, which proves that battling and consulting a Pokemon will help to both bond with them and help them obey. And wants again.. I say.. Dragonite- it happend get over it. Disobidient Pokemon will battle in matches because the officials have no right to correct a Trainer on their battling style. And the reason Charzaird was disqualified in Kanto, was because it was Kanto! The show had just started..

You're kidding right.
This is an official tournament meant to show the skill of a trainer, not the Iris bonding special
Iris had NO CONTROL over Dragonite in Rounds 1 & 2, she didn't do anything to earn or deserve those wins and the fact that it just listened out of nowhere in Round 3 made even less sense.
In Round 3 not only did it start ignoring her AGAIN, it went on a rampage and endangered everyone there, because SHE COULDN"T CONTROL IT.
THe match should have been stopped by the officials right then and there, it was clear beyond a doubt she had absolutely no control over Dragonite.

Tournaments are meant to show the skill of a trainer, Iris failed to command her Dragonite, it went on a rampage and she shafted her remaining 3 Pokemon entirely for it. So in what way did she show ANY skill and deserve even 1 win, letalone 2?

Bonding has nothing to with it, it was an OFFICIAL Tournament, it was meant for skilled trainers to show who is the most skilled and battle Adler. What Iris did would be no different from Cynthia giving her Garchomp to Ash, and then having Garchomp win all matches and facing Adler while Ash sits on the side playing with his dex. Would those have been wins for Ash? It would have been his Garchomp, he just wasn't controlling it. Thats EXACTLY what Iris did.

And yes, the officials have every right to disqualify a trainer, thats why they are there in the first place, to judge the matches.
 

Locormus

Can we please get the older, old forum back?
So what? Iris still would've won if D-nite listened to her. The power of that beast is there whether it listens or not. It would've been great if it listened to Iris, but the writers were establishing a story.

Owww.. So now they were establishing a story???

Honestly, back during that arc, I saw EVERYBODY whine about how they were giving Iris wins, and glorifying her and blablabla, and there I was yet again defending Iris (though not Staning) and that the battles will only have a bad backlash effect on her (proven by Georgia's quote), and that it was probably going to fall in battle against Ash and that it would be great if Drayden got involved in all of this.. etc.. Yet nobody wanted to hear that at that point in time..

But what do we have here! :p
 

d4rk_tailed

Doritoes,Leaf Storm!
Charzaird was obidient for no reason, there was no story behind it.. No focus was put on it before the OI episode. Dragonite got 2 episode dedicated to Iris talking to Dragonite along with Cynthia. What did Ash do before the Blaine battle? Nothing. He did nothing expect send Charzaird out to battle because Charzaird had a little rivalry with Magamar.

Apart from the fact that ALMOST ALL of the below post (not just the words I left in the box)....

You're kidding right.

...is relevant and gives logical enough explanations to all the questions posed in your rant, consider this difference:

two people live in your house. One is a stranger who came in off the street as a grown man. The other is your son, who youve seen grow up, as a baby, then a child, then a teenager and now a man.

They are both messy, and have all sorts of disobedient habits around your home.

And that is the difference between Dragonite and ones like Charizard and Mamoswine. Saying the latter two DIDNT get developed whilst the former DID? Mamoswine and Charizard were given stories in which they grew from obedient babies into grown nasty slobs; perhaps nowadays the Charizard plot would have been written better but at least that growth cycle played out on screen, making them relatable Pokemon. But Dragonite came into the story as an old man off the street, with its bad habits, and hence why the character doesnt endear itself to viewers.

I dont think you need to keep viewing this as anti Iris persecution.

ON TOPIC: I dont think disobedience is relevant for whether a Pokemon should be DQed. In play battles out in the wild, disobedience or anger plays out badly, like that Dragonite guarding the shrine in Johto, but in organised tournaments? I think its an unnecessary complication for a childrens show.
 
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PAndrews

Well-Known Member
Apart from the fact that ALMOST ALL of the below post (not just the words I left in the box)....



...is relevant and gives logical enough explanations to all the questions posed in your rant, consider this difference:

two people live in your house. One is a stranger who came in off the street as a grown man. The other is your son, who youve seen grow up, as a baby, then a child, then a teenager and now a man.

They are both messy, and have all sorts of disobedient habits around your home.

And that is the difference between Dragonite and ones like Charizard and Mamoswine. Saying the latter two DIDNT get developed whilst the former DID? Mamoswine and Charizard were given stories in which they grew from obedient babies into grown nasty slobs; perhaps nowadays the Charizard plot would have been written better but at least that growth cycle played out on screen, making them relatable Pokemon. But Dragonite came into the story as an old man off the street, with its bad habits, and hence why the character doesnt endear itself to viewers.

I dont think you need to keep viewing this as anti Iris persecution.

ON TOPIC: I dont think disobedience is relevant for whether a Pokemon should be DQed. In play battles out in the wild, disobedience or anger plays out badly, like that Dragonite guarding the shrine in Johto, but in organised tournaments? I think its an unnecessary complication for a childrens show.

This has nothing to do with "anti Iris persecution" this is about disobedient Pokemon in official battles. Iris is the best example in this case.

Charizard got disqualified for not listening in an official tournament, which makes perfect sense
Mamoswine didn't win (or even enter) any official competitions until it listened.
Dragonite got 2 wins in an official tournament despite not listening and everyone ignored the fact that it endangered every spectator there. Thats the key difference in the 3

The other disobedient Pokemon cost the trainers dearly or weren't in official battles. In all honesty Charizard annoyed the hell out of me in the day. It viewed Ash as weak and didn't listen. Ash responded by whining at it every time with his "please listen" instead of being a man and saying he was tired of this nonsense. He's viewed as weak and unworthy to train Charizard, so responding as a weak crybaby just gives Charizard more reason not to listen. I'm glad all Charizard did in the League was get disqualified, since any win would feel very cheap and unearned on Ash's part. That made sense, there should be consequences and risks in using a Pokemon that doesn't listen. Not have it stomp its way through a tournament while completely ignoring its trainer, but the trainer does get the wins (doesn't matter who this is, it makes no sense)

The problem here is whether a disbodient Pokemon should be allowed in an official tournament. The answer is an obvious no.
Tournaments are meant to show the trainers skill, nothing more, nothing less. If the trainer can't control the Pokemon, he/she has no place in that tournament.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member

d4rk_tailed

Doritoes,Leaf Storm!
That made sense, there should be consequences and risks in using a Pokemon that doesn't listen. Not have it stomp its way through a tournament while completely ignoring its trainer, but the trainer does get the wins (doesn't matter who this is, it makes no sense)

The problem here is whether a disbodient Pokemon should be allowed in an official tournament. The answer is an obvious no.
Tournaments are meant to show the trainers skill, nothing more, nothing less. If the trainer can't control the Pokemon, he/she has no place in that tournament.

I actually agreed with all your post except for the bit about disqualification being necessary. The 'Iris persecution' comment was levelled at ConUxie, not you.

If we assume tournaments show a trainers skill ONLY, as you propose, then shouldnt they be congratulated and allowed to compete with a disobedient Pokemon merely on the basis it follows them? Remember the point when Ashs Pikachu kept flicking a Pokeball at him then sat on a tree ignoring him.

I know you dont like the idea of the Pokemon getting the wins, not the trainer, but once it steps on the field, Im not bothered that they are allowed to compete. The risks and consequences should be a burden on the trainer, not the tournament organiser. Dragonite might have decided to sleep, but it didnt. Iris took a risk that paid off. Conversely, the writers had Ash put his faith in Charizard. The writers could have made Sparky zap Charizard, sending it beserk and getting Ash a win. So Ash makes that gamble. It didnt pay off.

But by allowing disobedient Pokemon to compete officially, the writers show us character development for the trainer, the ability to show trust, faith and good judgement.

Ah, the whole "it's for kids" copout. Never gets old...

OK then, forget the 'its for kids' bit. Its an unnecessary complication for a show outright :)
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
I was about to ignore this, but ...



Yes they do. That's their jobs.

We won't even have to speculate on it because it actually happened before. In " Crusin' for a Brusin' " we saw the Judges stop the match against May even though Bulbasaur could still fight. It's not only the official's job to keep score. They have to make sure that all the Trainers and Pokemon play fair so no one gets hurt.

That's a great point to make in here. It seems like people forgot about that match. But I think that if poor May could have got a scolding I don't see why Dragonite couldn't have. But I guess I should be fair here. AG was better writen.
 

ludiloco

Well-Known Member
They should be disqualified for the safety of the trainers and the audience, but since anime won't show a rampaging pokemon attacking humans during a tournament, mostly for the sake of children, it seems like not gonna happen.

reading this i remembered how Squirtle lost against Ritchie's Butterfree, it was so unfair, was sleep powder a OHKO move in Kanto?
 

Everlasting

Everything stays.
Depending the case. After all, some Pokémon may suddenly wake up and fight normally. But when, like tell before, Tyson's Meowth attacks an inoffensive Persian just for a bad experience... Or a sleeping Charizard, that could disqualify. Because, seriously, sometimes, it's annoying. Trainers are here to battle, not to sleep.
 
For once, I never thought of that way before or maybe I did not notice that topic. Maybe there is should be a rule of not having disobedient Pokemon in official battles or is it another way around.?
 

An00bis

Wicked Witch
reading this i remembered how Squirtle lost against Ritchie's Butterfree, it was so unfair, was sleep powder a OHKO move in Kanto?

Sleep Powder and to a lesser extent Stun Spore were used as decisive moves throughout Kanto.

Bulbasaur had a similar incident in Erika's Gym. Not that it mattered in the end, but still.
 

1rkhachatryan

Call me Robert guys
No but there should be a limit though, what Dragonite did was NOT ok.
 

Squirtle_007

Well-Known Member
Disqualifying a disobedient Pokémon is the minor of the things about that kind of ... committee, I mean ... we are talking about a committee that:
- Aren´t aware about the competitors and let everyone takes part in a disguise (James as Jessielina and that princess girl as Dawn)
- They don´t have control about the prizes they give (Jessie´s last illegal ribbon that she didn´t earned)
- Meanwhile in Johto you can replace your lost badges, in Kanto, you lose your badges and you´re screwed

In summary, the Pokémon Organization Committee is a real mess.
 

An00bis

Wicked Witch
Disqualifying a disobedient Pokémon is the minor of the things about that kind of ... committee, I mean ... we are talking about a committee that:
- Aren´t aware about the competitors and let everyone takes part in a disguise (James as Jessielina and that princess girl as Dawn)
- They don´t have control about the prizes they give (Jessie´s last illegal ribbon that she didn´t earned)
- Meanwhile in Johto you can replace your lost badges, in Kanto, you lose your badges and you´re screwed

- Well, we know you have to register yourself and your Pokemon when you enter a competition. Considering that Jessie works for a multi-million dollar criminal organization I wouldn't call it much of a stretch to say that she could forge some documents ... but I don't see why she bothered except for Giovanni possibly flipping channels and stumbling upon her side-gig. Everyone seemed to be aware that Jessie was Jessilina in Sinnoh, As far as Dawn / Princess goes ... she just lied.

- Considering that Gym Leaders can give Badges away like candy so long as they pass inspection this shouldn't be surprising. Paul and Barry's last badges were illegal too by that logic. So were half of Ash's Kanto Badges, his Dynamo Badge, and goodness knows how many he got without actually winning since.

- Technically, you can replace badges stolen from any region. heck, you don't even have to get all your badges in the same year apparently as long as you have eight. Tobias? He probably entered Sinnoh on the Friday before League, earned eight Badges on Saturday faster then Volkner could say " Holy crap! Was that Vincent Valentine on a Darkrai? ", Registered on Sunday, and entered on Monday.
 

matt0044

Well-Known Member

magicallypuzzled

Well-Known Member
I feel like disobediant pokemon should be disqualified immediately in official battles. It's true that battling in general is about bonding with a pokemon, but official battles are meant to be the proof of such a bond not the means to obtain that bonding. Someone that fails so hard that they don;t even reallize they don't have a bond with a pokemon before trying to order them about in a official battle should be rediculed and disqualified (it would of done ash good if he had been more embaressed by charizards disobediance and whould of been a great story in and of it's self.).

off topic

wow, when did this hatred of bulbagarden happen? was it there all along and i just didn't notcie or is this a recent thing?
 
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