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Should people move away from eating/using animal products?

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by keepitsimple, Nov 11, 2018.

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  1. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    note: Yeah, this thread again. so I know I deleted the last thread about this topic and all (didn't care too much for my attitude at some points in the thread) but I guess since this part of the forum is dead we might as well try to get it back to its old state. so... here's the remake lol. I promise not to delete this one guys!

    ____________________________________

    There are reasons from an environmental standpoint and an animal welfare standpoint why we should collectively move away from animal products. This thread is meant for discussing why we should or shouldn't do that, and whether it should or shouldn't be flat out considered unethical for someone with access to a fully plant based diet to continue to consume animal products. We can also discuss the ethics of using animal products in other products such as clothing, furniture, cosmetics etc.

    Generally I intend for the topic to be centered around attacking (or defending) the positions that (1) consuming/using animal products is ethically justified or (2) that people who don't buy animal products should still "live and let live" and allow animal agriculture and consumption to continue despite their ethical objections to it. However if soneone has some valid criticism of veganism then go ahead lol (as long as that isn't just vague complaining about the minority of pushy vegans. That was a real drag on the last thread and isn't exactly relevant to the actual issue whatsoever)
    ____________________________________

    Anyway guess I'll throw the first punch to whatever omnivore is reading this: Why do you consider the slaughter of billions of animals per year for food ethically justified when

    ?
    So basically, what I'm getting at is since we assign moral value to our own species, I'm asking what further trait (aside from the ones mentioned in the last bullet point) would a non-human animal need to share with a human in order for you to assign value to the animal's life, and no longer consider it justified to kill them for food we don't need? In order to be logically consistent, it needs to be a trait that if we lacked, you would consider it also justified to treat us in the way we currently treat these animals.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  2. Gizmoduck

    Gizmoduck Burns eternally hot

    Eat or be eaten is the law of life, really.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  3. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    Good point, those chickens/cows/pigs/fish will totally without a doubt eat us if we don't eat them rofl

    Especially those damned chickens. I don't trust them
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  4. Gizmoduck

    Gizmoduck Burns eternally hot

    I don't mean we eat meat to avoid being eaten ourselves, I mean in a general sense. Life has always been about consuming other life.

    Also, yeah, pigs would gladly eat a human if given the chance. Pigs will literally eat anything. And I'm sure almost any other animal would gladly partake in a human corpse without a second thought.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  5. Dragalge

    Dragalge Leaked footage

    There's a lot of delicious vegan meals out there! I can live without consuming meat tbh because pasta exists among other dishes!

    That and I don't like seeing animals having to live under awful conditions prior to being killed. Just seeing pigs living in such cooped-up, unsanitary places is disheartening. :c
     
  6. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    I know lol it was a joke. Not a good one but a joke nonetheless

    Anyway yeah but the question isn't "should we stop eating other life" because that includes plants lol. It's about animals specifically because they're sentient, have the will to live and don't give us any nutrients that we can't get from consuming something else. You're taking the context out of the question

    If people don't breed them for slaughter the ones that we eat wouldn't be alive in the first place so it's a moot point, either way there's no actual threat from not eating them
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  7. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    Dude I already mentioned the difference between killing plants and killing animals and why it's fine to kill plants. Read my posts. You're misunderstanding my position

    Sentience makes the difference here, I never said we should stop consuming other *life*
     
  8. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    I enjoy meat and animal products to such an extent that I would find it very, very hard to adopt any other dietary lifestyle, and like the overwhelming majority of consumers I'm simply quite comfortable with the ethical considerations raised when killing sentient animals.

    If any of those products could be switched to a lab-grown version, I'd do so in a heartbeat, and I've no doubt that carnivorous diets will be widely considered morally reprehensible 50 years from now (though it will also inevitably entail the virtual extinction of the species we rely on for these products).
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  9. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    Well glad you realize that "causing unnecessary suffering and death to animals is bad" will be the mainstream position in the future, but I do take issue with part of your post so...

    Why?
     
  10. Gamzee Makara

    Gamzee Makara Let people enjoy things...

    Sentience =/= Sapience.

    Should we? Ultimately, yes.

    Can we? If the logistics are planned correctly, yes.

    Will we? Not likely, the meat lobby and big pharma have made it nigh-impossible w/o resorting to breaking the law, which shouyldn't be nessecarey to achieving a higher ethical standard.

    Should we force this on pets? HELL NO!

    That is the one thing I hate:Forcing carnivores to eat a vegan diet. Now THAT is unnatural. Your cat and/or dog does not need nor wants a vegan diet. So how do you propose the animals that eat other animals be fed w/o animal meat to be obtained from humans killing other animals?

    These are the problems...

    1. Cats, Dogs and other carnivores cannot subsist on vegan food.
    2. If only allowed to hunt, your pet will either become sick or develop anger/obidience issues from said unchecked hunting, as well as get into trouble.
    3. Where do all the former food animals go? Most people don't want a bull or chicken, let alone have room for one. Not to mention the ecological disaster greater than feral hogs that would occur...
    4. Big Meat, Big Pharma and Big Science can't just be shut down w/o massive overregulation that even a California prog Dem wouldn't allow.

    How do you solve them?
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  11. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    At the most basic level, just a simple disassociation between the animal and the product, but I'm also quite happy with the state of play re animal welfare in my own country - I'm not convinced many of them actually are suffering. Many farm animals live broadly comfortable, well-fed lives far beyond what they would experience in a state of nature, and our laws are pretty thorough when it comes to appropriate methods of slaughter. We'll also be banning the overseas transportation of live animals and introducing CCTV into slaughterhouses for an extra layer of protection for the animals.

    They die out over time because producers will breed less of them in line with decreasing demand.

    It can and almost certainly will. Consumer demand will almost certainly decrease in decades to come.
     
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  12. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    I've never proposed this question and there is absolutely no way would I ever support forcing veganism on other animals, that's cruel. Besides other animals don't even have moral agency so obviously they don't have to follow human ethical principles lol. What kind of lunatic do you take me for? ;)

    We keep feeding pets the way we always have because like said above, they don't have moral agency while we do so our rules don't apply to them (and also like you said some are carnivores so even if they had moral agency it wouldn't matter).

    The argument for *us* not eating meat is because we don't need it which makes us killing them to feed us unnecessary, and we should reduce unnecessary suffering and death. Since a cat actually requires meat in his diet and can't conceptualize morality there's really no reason for him to be vegetarian lol

    Although whether we should even be breeding animals to be companions in the first place is another discussion for another thread

    See above

    ...you're suggesting that the supply will remain at it's current level as the demand goes down. As people stop buying meat, the industry would stop breeding them for slaughter meaning they wouldn't be alive.
     
    Dragalge likes this.
  13. Gamzee Makara

    Gamzee Makara Let people enjoy things...

    Is wiping out their existence via artificially accelerated Darwinism not hypocritical to supposed champions of animal rights and welfare?

    How do you propose to make it go down?

    And explain humans possessing omnivorous teeth that predate the discovery of soy and other vegan products. And soy allergies.
     
  14. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    I'd much rather not be born than be factory farmed and I don't think you'll find many people who would consider being factory farmed the more appealing of the two
     
  15. Gamzee Makara

    Gamzee Makara Let people enjoy things...

    But killing a population is genocide, no?

    And someone's never heard of a

    CW:NSFW statement

    hucow fetish

    I'm just saying that people who want to liberate animals haven't thought how to apart from counter-cruelty. Which prevents me from going veg. I still eat veg as a dietary preference.
     
  16. keepitsimple

    keepitsimple my eggs

    Pretty sure there are protection sanctuaries that could be used
     
  17. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon A monument to all your sins

    This... is an interesting one.

    I myself only consume fish. That’s not a moral thing, it’s a sustainability thing. I’m not too fussed about the morality behind consuming other animals, because, like it or not, that’s kind of how life works. Food chains and the consequent transfer of energy from producer to apex predator, along with hunting, is absolutely fundamental to all ecosystems for all sorts of reasons. And besides, morality isn’t objective and is entirely a human concept, and I thus believe I cannot use it to answer questions such as these., relating directly to things which are not human.

    What I am concerned about is sustainability. I’m no expert but from what I know, it is clear to me that humanity simply cannot continue to factory farm like we are, and there isn’t the space for “free range” either. Thus an alternative food source is needed to sustain our growing numbers for an extended period of time. As this is not my field of expertise (I’m a mathematician) I don’t know what to suggest but insects always seemed logical to me.
     
  18. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    It's not really economically affordable. I went vegan a few months back but just couldn't afford the fresh produce on my low income so I had to go back to eating meat.. when an entire chicken that lasts a week costs as much as MAYBE 1 vegan meal, it would be stupid to not.

    When either I earn enough to support myself on a vegan diet or the price of fresh produce/cruelty-free options drops, I'll go back.

    As for animal byproducts, the manufacturing of alternatives leads to more pollution than the real thing so either way something damages the ecosystem. Something should be done. Cleaner productions need to be enforced more heavily.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  19. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Not artificially sustaining a population of animals isn't cruel, nor is it genocide.

    Animals won't be bred in the same numbers. Herds/flocks will shrink in size as the industry becomes less commercially viable.

    Explain not dying of cholera by age 26. Appeals to nature aren't very useful, and it's obviously feasible for many people to subsist on vegan or vegetarian diets. It's a respectable choice I choose not to make myself, not an impossibility.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  20. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    I just remembered about this video.

    It's totally unfair you deleted a thread just because you lost an argument.

    I'll ask this again. What do you think about religions that have animal sacrifice? Should they be banned?
     

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