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Should people move away from eating/using animal products?

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by keepitsimple, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. Yeah meat and dairy receive way too much subsidy money compared to fruits and vegetables which makes more ethical/healthier choices too expensive compared to things we really should be eating less of. Obviously I'm not about pushing people to do things they can't afford, and it seems like you already agree with me on the ethical part which is what the thread is about anyway

    be more specific about which susbtitutes man. source?

    keep in mind nowhere in this thread did I claim morality was objective though, and ethical arguments against eating animals also don't rely on morality being objective (it's more like "is supporting factory farming consistent with the ethical standards that you already hold?") so this is kind of an irrelevant point

    You are correct about factory farming not being sustainable since livestock consumes more than half of our crops. We should just be growing food for people instead

    Yay you're back! <3

    I don't remember that, who did I lose an argument to? I could always ask a mod to restore the thread.

    Dafuq. Was this the argument you think I apparently "lost"? Because it's really bad.

    but no lol, why would I support banning religions? Totally phase out the practice of animal sacrifice tho, that's just shitty

    Anyway answer the question in the OP please:

     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  2. Minedreigon

    Minedreigon A monument to all your sins

    I wouldn’t exactly say it’s irrelevant. For me the subjectivity of morality basically makes moral arguments completely powerless to convince people to stop using or eating animal produce, unless somebody is already that way inclined. It’s not a way to sell it if you’re asking me, while talking exactly about the emissions it produces, the space it takes up and all of the other genuine scientific issues with it is much more concrete and therefore should provide a stronger basis for which to argue for the movement away from such produce.

    I’m not so sure about the sustainability of our crop farming either. The big problem is space. Our population is growing out of control, we’re simply going to run out of room for it all eventually. Furthermore if you use machinery to harvest the crops, that’s more greenhouse gases released into the atmosphere, unless you are using a fraction of the crops themselves as a carbon neutral fuel to power said machinery, which would be ideal. The alternative is using just people but the idea of generating that large of a primary sector workforce across the globe seems tricky.

    Whatever the solution to the oncoming food crisis I’m expecting it to be crazy. Insects as I said before doesn’t sound too illogical.
     
  3. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Ban the practice, or at the absolute minimum require that animals are stunned prior to death (with enforcement as heavy-handed as possible).
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  4. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    I don't remember which arguments you lost, but it was probably all of them. If you want to phase out animal sacrifice, you're essentially castrating the religion.

    Are you referring to this question? "what further trait (aside from the ones mentioned in the last bullet point) would a non-human animal need to share with a human in order for you to assign value to the animal's life, and no longer consider it justified to kill them for food we don't need?"

    Other than the trait of being human, I guess the answer to that would be sapience. If animals were smart, we would feel bad for killing and eating them. If humans were edible, we'd be eating Trump supporters.
     
  5. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Boo bloody hoo? Why should any of us give a toss? I'm also perfectly comfortable banning halal and kosher meat, they can go cry into a holy book.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
    Dragalge and keepitsimple like this.
  6. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    Are you one of those Brexit people?
     
  7. Dragalge

    Dragalge Constance Rookidee

    ...Are you one of them? It must be you, sad dipping sauce! No backing out now!


    One good reason to quit meat consumption is to have all the parsnip purée you can have. Highly recommend it!
     
    WizardTrubbish and keepitsimple like this.
  8. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    I like the picture in your signature, but i will not have my name insulted by a vegan. I have feelings, unlike delicious animals.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  9. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Ha, no. I simply see no reason why faith gets anyone a carve-out on animal welfare - or any other aspect of the law for that matter.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  10. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

    Since when was slaughtering innocent delicious animals illegal?
     
    Jerimiyah likes this.
  11. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    ...You don't know much about religious slaughter, do you? In short, it results in a stressful and painful death that welfare laws are designed to prevent, usually by necessitating some form of stunning.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  12. Nockturne

    Nockturne Well-Known Member

    I think we should but I also think its totally unrealistic to expect it to happen. One of many reasons is food is a massive part of most cultures around the world and so many traditional meals are meat based, as well as including other animal products. So I don't think its rational to expect the global population to shift to veganism or even vegetarianism en masse, because meat is just to ingrained in people.

    That said I am excited by the advancements made in lab grown meat as I see shifting people to a more sustainable and environmentally friendly source of meat as being infinitely more likely to succeed, than hoping for people to cut it out all together. I also think animal rights activists are missing a trick when it comes to trying to convince people to change their diet, I honestly think they'd have more success pushing the environmental damage done by the meat industry aspect rather than the cruelty.
     
    Jerimiyah likes this.
  13. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    we should move away from eating meat as a species right? in order to make such a reform possible we also need to move away from capitalism as our economic structure
     
  14. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    I mean, if the plan is to make people too poor to afford meat, then yes.
     
  15. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    http://time.com/money/5112462/billi...r-they-could-end-extreme-poverty-seven-times/

    The top 1% make so much money in comparison the issue in that sense is moot. There's always some issues with production and supply and such, but that argument doesn't hold much water outside of getting people to actually hold these people accountable.
     
  16. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    - Step 1: Abolish capitalism
    - Step 2: Avoid doing what Russia, China, Venezuela, North Korea, the entirety of Eastern Europe, about a dozen African countries and every other socialist/communist country over the past century did
    - Step 3: ???
    - Step 4: No profit

    Capitalism and free markets are the most benign forces in the history of mankind. Nothing has done more to curtail poverty and mortality in all of human history.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
  17. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    I mean this was an argument about ethics in regards to eating meat, so we'll bring it back to that as the focus here. But let's be clear, people are struggling to eat now in America, it's 1 in 8 people who don't eat enough in the first place, then you take in people who live paycheck to paycheck who have to go with whatever is cheapest, and a lot of meat is fairly cheap for bulk stuff.

    My point was rich people could be forced to help with hunger, but they won't and have to be forced to. Otherwise people will go hungry, because they don't care. So really my issue with this morality wise is we need to make it so people don't go hungry, then you could have that ethical discussion where people don't have to compromise their morals to eat so they don't die.

    Let's just keep that in mind when discussing this, because this is more about if something could be morally wrong and would need to change over time. I've never been for shaming people who are less well off who do what they can with what they've got anyway.
     
    keepitsimple likes this.
  18. Genaller

    Genaller May 16th 2016 - October 12th 2019

    My answer would be no in most cases. The exceptions for me would be animals that have positively demonstrated self-awareness (e.g. Dolphins which if I’m not mistaken are eaten in some countries) though of course getting negative results in self-awareness tests (e.g. the mirror test) doesn’t necessarily mean the animal in question doesn’t have self-awareness but rather could result from said test not being based on the animal’s primary sense (e.g. in the case of the mirror test the primary sense is vision; however, the primary sense of say Dogs is smell and the primary sense of say Bats is sound meaning that tests adapted to utilizing those senses would provide a better indicator of if these animals have self-awareness).
     
  19. Platina2000

    Platina2000 Well-Known Member

    I say no, we shouldn't move on from eating other animals. Animals eat other animals to survive. Us humans are animals whether you believe it or not, and despite us being more over-populated than any other creature, we have just as much of a right to eat meat like any other. Animals kill other animals to survive. They eat others to survive. We humans are no different.

    I can't answer this question any further without asking a few questions of my own: why are we shamed for doing the same thing as any other creature? We have been doing this for thousands of years, so why stop now?
     
    Jerimiyah likes this.
  20. Captain Jigglypuff

    Captain Jigglypuff Leader of Jigglypuff Army Staff Member Moderator

    I think it should be up to each person. I choose to use animal products and eat meat but I respect those who don’t for their lifestyle. But I am not an animal abuser nor do I support cruel farming methods. I’m sort of like Beverly Goodman from Mr. Pickles in that I love animals but I don’t think giving up animal products is a lifestyle right for me. I find some of the meat substitutes creepy particularly the fake chicken nuggets because of how close they resemble the food. Why eat something that looks and feels like a chicken nugget if you don’t support eating meat? That is what I don’t understand.
     

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