Should Pokemon be Linear?

[Dragalge]

It's not a matter of liking or disliking the storylines. Objectively, they are not very good. Not well written. Certainly not complex.
And his point? You refer to him saying "Sequential storylines, however, do not require linearity"? In that case, also no. Purely because it's a nonsensical statement, "sequential" is a meaningless term when discussing a narrative.

BW was most certainly a well thought out plot and is the best story in Pokémon known to date in any main series game.

 

[AceOfSpadez]

BW was most certainly a well thought out plot and is the best story in Pokémon known to date in any main series game.

Considering it had that twist at the end, and the two dragons battling each other.

What I'm hoping for in X and Y is a better storyline than BW. Pokemon is moving into a new age and I guess it's fitting to make the story more complex and eventful.

 

[randomspot555]

It's not a matter of liking or disliking the storylines.

But that's entirely what your post is about.

Objectively, they are not very good. Not well written. Certainly not complex.

That is not "objective" at all.

If you personally like the storylines or not or see the need for linearity or not is totally up to you. But to deny that BW1's plot is more complex than Gen 1's plot is nonsense.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

And his point? You refer to him saying "Sequential storylines, however, do not require linearity"? In that case, also no. Purely because it's a nonsensical statement, "sequential" is a meaningless term when discussing a narrative.

First of all, by "sequential" I mean that events happen in a certain order. For instance, in BW1 you can't go to Opelucid City before going to Dragonspiral Tower, since what happens in Opelucid City doesn't make sense without visiting the former first. Certain events have to happen in a certain order to make sense. That's what requires linearity. A sequential storyline in and of itself does not require complete linearity, however, if you look at RSE and DPPt, they both had sequential storylines and yet they are the most explorable regions to date. It is only when those sequential events happen frequently throughout the game that that level of linearity is required, and I don't even think BW1 has gone that far. They can put nonlinear design in sections of the game that have long gaps in important events in the storyline.

 

[Scrufox86]

Not sure... I personally liked the times when you could have some choices of where to go but the difficult thing is levels of the wild pokemon. As I have read already if you have level 30 pokemon you don't want to go on to an area with level 45 pokemon and then find out the other "choice" was an area with level 30-35 pokemon because by that time your pokemon will be a lot higher. So there has to be a balance of levels but I don't think there should be choices everywhere. What I noticed about previous gens is the choice thing was only around the half-way point of the game so about 4 gyms and it worked because the pokemon levels in the areas were not too different.

I did find the Unova region a bit dull in black and white as you had to follow that boring line round. Black 2/White 2 did sort of change that which was good. Hopefully gen VI will be a bit like previous gens and have some sort of "choice".

 

[DjangoCribbs]

BW was most certainly a well thought out plot and is the best story in Pokémon known to date in any main series game.

I can at best take your word for it as far as the B/W series goes, haven't felt the urge to play either of them yet. But saying "best story in Pokémon known to date" isn't saying a whole lot.

But that's entirely what your post is about.

No, it's not. Possibly how you're interpreting it but not what I'm saying, at all. I said that the stories are "forgettable", "ignorable" and I said they weren't particularly well written or complex. Nowhere did I say I didn't like them. I find them cutesy and quaint.

That is not "objective" at all.

If you personally like the storylines or not or see the need for linearity or not is totally up to you. But to deny that BW1's plot is more complex than Gen 1's plot is nonsense.

I have to wonder, based on that, if you're 100% certain on your definition of "objective" and "subjective".
How much somebody enjoys a Pokemon game and the story within is subjective.
Whether or not that story features good quality of writing and qualifies as a gripping narrative is objective. It is measured against a standard by means of comparison and reason and is not influenced by personal preference.
Now, and this is where you really need to pay attention to what I have said rather than what you assume I meant to say, I'm not denying that B/W1's plot is more complex than the Gen 1 games. Mainly 'cos I haven't played any of the B/W games. Never even mentioned them.
They may well be more complex than previous titles but given how basic previous titles have always been, again, that really isn't saying alot. Being "more complex" than something that is not complex in the slightest does not make that something particularly complex.

First of all, by "sequential" I mean that events happen in a certain order.

Which is the very nature of a narrative. Hence, "sequential" is utterly meaningless in the context of discussing narrative as it's a complete given. That is literally all that I meant by my comment.
Though, in regards to the rest of your comment, I'd argue that all the games that I've played (all except B/W) have been fairly good at frequently pushing you down the only available road you can take.

 

[SBaby]

I can at best take your word for it as far as the B/W series goes, haven't felt the urge to play either of them yet. But saying "best story in Pokémon known to date" isn't saying a whole lot.

Let's put it this way. If Ghetsis wasn't in the game, it was one of the best storylines I've seen in an RPG in a long time.

But the thing is, the game didn't need a hallway in order to convey this plot.

 

[randomspot555]

I can at best take your word for it as far as the B/W series goes, haven't felt the urge to play either of them yet. But saying "best story in Pokémon known to date" isn't saying a whole lot.

ITT people who don't play Pokemon games criticize Pokemon games on how to improve Pokemon games.

I have to wonder, based on that, if you're 100% certain on your definition of "objective" and "subjective".
How much somebody enjoys a Pokemon game and the story within is subjective.

That's nice.

Whether or not that story features good quality of writing and qualifies as a gripping narrative is objective.

And if one person believes it is a "Gripping narrative" and one isn't, that means it is a subjective perception.

It is measured against a standard by means of comparison and reason and is not influenced by personal preference.

So you're saying that if a work of fiction has a supposed gripping narrative, everyone reading or viewing that work of fiction will come away with the same analysis that the narrative was, in fact, gripping?

Now, and this is where you really need to pay attention to what I have said rather than what you assume I meant to say, I'm not denying that B/W1's plot is more complex than the Gen 1 games. Mainly 'cos I haven't played any of the B/W games. Never even mentioned them.
They may well be more complex than previous titles but given how basic previous titles have always been, again, that really isn't saying alot. Being "more complex" than something that is not complex in the slightest does not make that something particularly complex.

Yes, and people taking about Gen 5's plot being more complex mean they're talking about it in terms of video games, not in terms of Huckleberry Finn or Lord of the Rings. Don't be obtuse. No one is claiming that Pokemon plots are some of the best fictional writing of all time.

 

[GreatGonzales]

I don't think any game should be linear. However, the style of pokemon really just lends itself toward linearity, which is something that can't really be helped. They need to be linear, in order to maintain a steadily rising level of difficulty and challenge. Pokemon isn't like many other RPGs such as Skyrim, where enemies level with you. Foes, wild pokemon, and the eight gyms are all designed so that they increase in strength and difficultly as you become stronger. Making pokemon completely non-linear would break the game; you could traverse route 10 and catch level 40 wild pokemon before challenging the first gym.

Like I said, it's just the style of how pokemon was made. However, I think it would help if you were required to return to areas that you had been to before in order to advance in the storyline. We've seen a steady incline in the presence of a plot from gen. 1 until gen. 5, where it made a huge leap ahead. Due to the fact that you need to follow the storyline, the games slowly require more linearity in order to support the plot. In BW, you almost never had to return to an area you had already visited.

All I'm saying is that we need to make certain areas and towns viable parts of the plot for more than just one issue.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

Which is the very nature of a narrative. Hence, "sequential" is utterly meaningless in the context of discussing narrative as it's a complete given. That is literally all that I meant by my comment.
Though, in regards to the rest of your comment, I'd argue that all the games that I've played (all except B/W) have been fairly good at frequently pushing you down the only available road you can take.

Not quite. Look at RBYFRLG and GSCHGSS. There weren't as many sequential events in those games as there were in more recent games. Team Rocket events basically amount to "we do bad things because we're bad", the events aren't really related to one another. Hence why the game is less linear than recent games, most of those events are fairly interchangeable and can be done in just about any order.

 

[Aenglaan]

Perhaps one of the biggest problems with gen 5 (mostly Black and White) was that the game's emphasis on story became too much of a focus. I think this is a major reason why the game is so linear compared to the following titles, and I feel that it hurts the game because of it. Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh all have, to some extent, a nonlinear design to their world's, allowing the player to explore the world to grind, find and capture new Pokemon, find new items, etc. One of my favorite examples is the Lapras at the bottom of Union Cave on Fridays. It was something to do in Johto that could prove to be very useful, while not a requirement for completing the game.

 

[Shayminslicker]

No. If they made it linear it wouldn't be much fun in my opinion.

 

[DjangoCribbs]

ITT people who don't play Pokemon games criticize Pokemon games on how to improve Pokemon games.

You're doing it again... That thing about not assuming what you think I meant to say, this applies to making comments like that.

And if one person believes it is a "Gripping narrative" and one isn't, that means it is a subjective perception.

Yes, it's a subjective perception. And goes no further than that person. The whole "It's my opinion so deal with it" attitude is one of the most childish responses we have. No, it's your opinion so you deal with it if it doesn't line up with the general consensus.
If a toddler finds a particular episode of Teletubbies "gripping" because they couldn't find any custard till the last second... does that mean Teletubbies is therefore "gripping" or could be described as such? No, the toddler has an undeveloped mind for such concepts and their opinion, such as it is, carries no actual weight.
If a teenager tells you that Transformers had "the most tense drama ever", which is the kind of statement that adolescents tend to make, does that mean they are right? Does that mean the tension and drama found within the film can only be judged subjectively? No, of course it doesn't. The teenager is relatively ignorant of the wealth of tense dramas out there, has very poor frame for reference and is about as subtle as a thunderstorm. It might be their opinion but, judging the film objectively, it is meaningless.
And if someone tries to tell me that Pokemon has a complex and artful narrative I'm forced to laugh in their face. With the exception of the B/W series, as I've happily stated, where I'll merely raise an eyebrow as I find it difficult to believe. Because while that person may have enjoyed it, subjectively they found it hugely entertaining, that enjoyment clouds objective judgement. Objectively, considering the Pokemon games alongside every other game ever made and released as is only fair, the Pokemon games do not have deep and complex narratives. They do not hold elements that create tension and anxiety. They do not have fully fleshed out characters. That's a fact, an objective fact.
As SBaby said...

Let's put it this way. If Ghetsis wasn't in the game, it was one of the best storylines I've seen in an RPG in a long time.

Which is fine. But all that leads me to wonder is how few RPGs that SBaby has seen lately... The Witcher, anybody?

So you're saying that if a work of fiction has a supposed gripping narrative, everyone reading or viewing that work of fiction will come away with the same analysis that the narrative was, in fact, gripping?

Of course not. Everyone's minds work differently. But alot of people are fully able to distinguish between their subjective opinion and their objective thoughts, at least to the extent where my initial point would've been child's play for them to comprehend...

Yes, and people taking about Gen 5's plot being more complex mean they're talking about it in terms of video games, not in terms of Huckleberry Finn or Lord of the Rings. Don't be obtuse. No one is claiming that Pokemon plots are some of the best fictional writing of all time.

And, as I said a few lines above... Compared to video games, they're still gonna have to be totally jaw-dropping when you consider the range of superbly written video games out there for such a statement to have any validity what-so-ever. And be careful that you aren't saying complex just as a way of trying to convey quality. Something can be good while still being simple and straightforward. So be sure that complex is actually what you mean because that totally changes what you're comparing it to.
FYI... LotR, Huckleberry Finn? Pretty straightforward.

 

[randomspot555]

You're doing it again... That thing about not assuming what you think I meant to say, this applies to making comments like that.

Did you play any of Gen 5?

How can someone who hasn't played Gen 5 participate in a discussion where most of it stems from the pros and cons of Gen 5's linearity?

Yes, it's a subjective perception. And goes no further than that person. The whole "It's my opinion so deal with it" attitude is one of the most childish responses we have. No, it's your opinion so you deal with it if it doesn't line up with the general consensus.

Oh, so now a "general consensus" consisting of a lot of people agreeing on one opinion now makes it some sort of objective analysis. Gee, these opinion things really are amazing.

Here's an objective analysis for you: People who haven't played a current Pokemon game probably shouldn't participate in a discussion filled with pros and cons that are addressing specifically the current generation. Sure, there's SOME discussion of Gen I-IV, but most of the discussion in this thread is centered around Gen 5.

If a toddler finds a particular episode of Teletubbies "gripping" because they couldn't find any custard till the last second... does that mean Teletubbies is therefore "gripping" or could be described as such? No, the toddler has an undeveloped mind for such concepts and their opinion, such as it is, carries no actual weight.

Golly gee, it is almost like children's programming serves some entirely different purpose than programming put in prime time slots on broadcast networks.

If a teenager tells you that Transformers had "the most tense drama ever", which is the kind of statement that adolescents tend to make, does that mean they are right? Does that mean the tension and drama found within the film can only be judged subjectively? No, of course it doesn't. The teenager is relatively ignorant of the wealth of tense dramas out there, has very poor frame for reference and is about as subtle as a thunderstorm. It might be their opinion but, judging the film objectively, it is meaningless.

It is almost like people should be judging Pokemon plots by a different measure than whatever you're talking about.

And if someone tries to tell me that Pokemon has a complex and artful narrative

No one is saying that, but it has become more complex over time.

With the exception of the B/W series, as I've happily stated, where I'll merely raise an eyebrow as I find it difficult to believe.

Except in your first post in this thread, where you passed judgement on all Pokemon games even though you hadn't played the most current ones.

Because while that person may have enjoyed it, subjectively they found it hugely entertaining, that enjoyment clouds objective judgement. Objectively, considering the Pokemon games alongside every other game ever made and released as is only fair, the Pokemon games do not have deep and complex narratives.

No one is saying that Pokemon is the most complex game of all time.

l

Which is fine. But all that leads me to wonder is how few RPGs that SBaby has seen lately... The Witcher, anybody?

Oh no, someone going against the "general consensus". The horror! Someone liking an JRPG that hasn't met the minimum number of RPGs to play to add to the "General consensus"! Whatever will we do!

FYI... LotR, Huckleberry Finn? Pretty straightforward.

Yeah, totally. They're totally just some fictional stories and can't be read deeper or further or anything like that at all. No social commentary or anything like that.

 

[GreatGonzales]

And if someone tries to tell me that Pokemon has a complex and artful narrative I'm forced to laugh in their face. With the exception of the B/W series, as I've happily stated, where I'll merely raise an eyebrow as I find it difficult to believe. Because while that person may have enjoyed it, subjectively they found it hugely entertaining, that enjoyment clouds objective judgement. Objectively, considering the Pokemon games alongside every other game ever made and released as is only fair, the Pokemon games do not have deep and complex narratives. They do not hold elements that create tension and anxiety. They do not have fully fleshed out characters. That's a fact, an objective fact.

This is asinine. Now you're saying that BW, which you haven't even played, have a definite quality and magnitude of storytelling. Wrong. You're turning your opinion, or many peoples' opinions, into objective analysis. You think that BW had a shallow storyline and plot. That's a subjective observation. Perhaps I think that the characters were very dynamic, and the story had a great amount of deep, emotional meaning.

Oh, sorry, or am I "wrong" because my opinion is different from yours, and I'm not as qualified or experienced as you, making my subjective observation invalid?

 

[DjangoCribbs]

Could somebody please find the point where I actually mentioned the B/W games? Is this not the General Pokemon discussion board? Since many people are comparing the linearity of the present gen to the apparent non, or at least lesser, linearity of the earlier gens I'm pretty sure I'm "allowed" to take part in this discussion, in so much as pointing out that neither deep stories nor open and free gameplay are prevalent in any gen. Not if you're going to take an objective view and see them in the broader context of games available.

Oh no, someone going against the "general consensus". The horror! Someone liking an JRPG that hasn't met the minimum number of RPGs to play to add to the "General consensus"! Whatever will we do!

You speak of the general consensus like it's a case of whatever got the most Facebook likes or YouTube comments. What I'm talking about is review by peers. People who actually know what they're talking about. Because while there's always always the personal and subjective element to all art, different strokes for different folks, there is also technical ability. That is objective and it matters.
I can tell you that the Witcher has a brilliant story that is deep and intricate, that is moving and powerful, and you can blow it off and say "it's all opinion". But what you can't argue with is that it's adapted from a series of novels by Andrzej Sapkowski, an author who has won multiple awards for his work. His technical writing ability is far in superior to that of anyone writing for Pokemon and it shows in the respective product. This is, of course, to be expected. As you say, no-one is putting Pokemon up on that high a tier. Again, don't recall, when I actually did. I do feel that the perspective is important to maintain.
But for SBaby to make the statement they did either displays their ignorance of other, far superior cases which makes their opinion moot or it's blatant denial of objective facts, sticking purely to subjective opinion. Again, moot.
Same goes for you, GreatGonzales. You're not "wrong" for having a different opinion to me, never said that, but you are gonna be wrong if you argue in the face of plain fact. Don't be so defensive if accusations haven't actually been made.
You gotta look at something for how good it is at being what it is, as opposed to how much you like what it is. This is why the Pokemon series is so great and successful. They are amazing games. The mechanics and gameplay alone are enough to shift them. But if you're gonna isolate the plot elements and consider it's narrative merits you have to be realistic.

 

[Frost Mage]

I would love for the games to stem off in several ways depending on what the player chose. It could keep that linear way of doing things, but also give players a choice as to what they want to do, and in what order.

 

[Enjolras]

The fact is, GameFreak beefed up their story writing skills at the same time that linearity reached a point where you have only one path to take. If that's the price I have to pay, it's fine with me. The better story is worth having to follow a line.

 

[Silent Skies]

Here's what I think.

D/P/P didn't focus too much on its story (though its story was great), and its region design wasn't very linear.
BW/BW2 focused much more on its story (and it was created really well), but its region design was much, much more linear.

The way I see it, the fifth-generation games were a "test" to see what the best balance between story and linearity in exploration was. X and Y probably will be a balance of a story made with more focus than D/P/P but as much as, if not slightly less or more than, BW/BW2, and linearity also falling somewhere in between the two.

 

[randomspot555]

Could somebody please find the point where I actually mentioned the B/W games?

No. Just no. I love Pokemon... But the story, every time, is sooo forgettable. And ignorable.

"Every time" can't really be applied if you haven't actually played "Every" game.

Is this not the General Pokemon discussion board? Since many people are comparing the linearity of the present gen to the apparent non, or at least lesser, linearity of the earlier gens I'm pretty sure I'm "allowed" to take part in this discussion, in so much as pointing out that neither deep stories nor open and free gameplay are prevalent in any gen. Not if you're going to take an objective view and see them in the broader context of games available.

Again, that's nice. But you're not adding anything to the discussion because you skipped an entire generation of Pokemon where a lot of people are saying that Pokemon has become more linear or more complex in terms of plot, both in regards to this specific generation. So you saying "Well, Pokemon has always been linear" adds nothing to the discussion because people are saying this specific generation has been more linear, and "Pokemon game plots have always been lightweight" don't address the people who are saying the plot is noteworthy in Gen 5.