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should the writers bring paul back to the show?

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Krizor

Evil Genius
I couldn't disagree more. The Ash/Shinji rivalry story arc worked perfectly as a Sinnoh only story. It's ending worked perfectly where it was and bringing it along for another series would be been pushing it.

Shooti is a great rival. What he lacks in experience he makes up for in knowledge, skill and strategy. I'm interested in seeing how their rivalry develops.

I think they could have extended the rivalry to BW and it would have been fine.

The main thing I don't like about the Ash/Shooti rivalry is the fact that Shooti is a rookie. They pretty much had to bring Ash's skill level down to match his just to keep this rivalry going. If they would have kept Paul, they could have just kept building upon the growth Ash displayed in DP instead of having him almost revert back to a beginner.
 

Blazenuva

Well-Known Member
What I want to see happen is a Paul VS Shootie battle if this saga ever has a Battle Frontier. Otherwise, it would be cool to have Paul become the Gary of Isshu. Show up once in a while and help Ash. They could make an excuse of why he isn't participating in the league be something like "I need to travel and explore what it really means to be a trainer". So cliche stuff like that.
 

poizonsting

Pokemon master
Let's face it: The probability of Paul making a permanent comeback in the show is the same as Misty making a permanent comeback in the main cast. Paul is still Ash's rival and will remain that way till the end of the anime (whenever that might be), but the rivalry story between Ash and Paul is over. Over. That means Paul could make a cameo like Gary, but not return as Ash's main rival.

The writers better give Paul a few cameo episodes, since I have mad respect for Paul and I wanna see what new Pokemon he has and if he had beaten the Kanto Battle Frontier. Although I have decided not to watch B/W, I will definitely watch the episodes where Paul gets a cameo. So if the writers decide to do that, we might see Ash bumping into Paul in Isshu as Paul got there to train with other varieties of Pokemon that are not found in Kanto/Johto/Hoenn/Sinnoh so that he can become stronger to challenge the Sinnoh Battle Frontier or something. Both Ash and Paul would be excited to see their old rival in flesh again, and they would challenge each other in a full battle to test how strong they have become since their last encounter (Sinnoh league). Now it would be a good time when both of them are down to their last Pokemon; Ash's Charizard and Paul's Rayquaza battle it out in an epic showdown.
 

cauldronmaster

Well-Known Member
Ash's rivalry with Paul had a climax centered around Brandon, an established, well-known, high-ranking trainer who Ash had defeated in the past. It was at that point in the rivalry that Paul started to look at Ash as a considerable threat, rather than a brainless novice.

If the writers plan on making Ash's rivalry with Shooti as close as possible to his rivalry with Paul, they're going to need to bring back an old character to serve this role: A high-ranking, well-known, powerful trainer who either has been defeated by Ash or at least is knowledgeable of any of Ash's significant accomplishments. Again, the goal is convincing Shooti to view Ash as a considerable powerhouse, rather than a pushover trainer. What makes this situation complicated for the writers is that, unlike Sinnoh, Isshu is established to be far away and completely isolated from any past region Ash has traveled through.

The most likely trainer to serve this role is Cynthia. Not only does she make an appearance in the B/W games, regional champions tend to be well-known even outside of their home region. Shooti will likely recognize her as a powerful trainer (or, if he chooses to continue to be ignorant, he can find out the hard way by getting pulverized by her Garchomp). Though several plot devices, she can explain to Shooti (and possibly Iris/Dento) about her observations regarding Ash and Paul or Ash's league endeavors (Darkrai and Latios anyone?)

If the writers choose not to take the Cynthia route outlined above, then Paul will likely return in Best Wishes to fill this role. The writers could easily come up with a random treasure for Brandon to find in Isshu, with Paul heading to the region to pursue him there.
Paul could do some training at some of the battle clubs, gaining a strong reputation in that system, which would entice Shooti to challenge him to a battle. Paul defeats/destroys/demolishes Shooti, which leads to Shooti being interested in Paul's training secrets or whatnot. Somewhere in that conversation, Paul mentions his loss to Ash in the Sinnoh league, and then Ash's training style. This will also acccomplish the goal of Shooti beggining to take Ash much more seriously.
 

Gaiash

Champion Scientist
I think they could have extended the rivalry to BW and it would have been fine.
Again I disagree. Their rivalry would have felt forced if it went on past Sinnoh. With Gary it made sence to bring their rivalry to Johto, it had more to tell and had been going on even before the show started.

The main thing I don't like about the Ash/Shooti rivalry is the fact that Shooti is a rookie. They pretty much had to bring Ash's skill level down to match his just to keep this rivalry going.
I really hate when people use that as their reason for not liking Shooti. Fun fact, until Shinji used Torterra against Cynthia people thought he was a rookie too and that Chimchar was his starter. That took 40 episodes. 39 episodes where everyone thought Shinji was a rookie trainer. Guess what? No one cared.

Next Ash isn't bringing his skill level down, he's facing a skilled rookie on equal grounds. As I said Shooti makes up for his lack of experience with knowledge, skill and strategy.


If they would have kept Paul, they could have just kept building upon the growth Ash displayed in DP instead of having him almost revert back to a beginner.
Ash would still only be using Pikachu and Isshu Pokemon, Pikachu's power would still be on the fritz and Ash would still make the same mistakes. This had nothing to do with Shooti because that's exactly what happened at the begining of Hoenn and Sinnoh.
 
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Isis-sama

Well-Known Member
To be honest, I think it would have been better off, story-wise, had the writers kept Paul around for Isshu. As it was the resolution to the worst of their rivalry (yeah I know they're still rivals, but apparently they're now more friendly rivals, or that's what the writers wanted to come across) was horrible and not made any better by the fact the writers were rushing to end Sinnoh so they could get to Isshu. The worst of it, for me at least, was that the theme about Paul mistreating his Pokemon seemed to have been dropped completely somewhere around the middle of Sinnoh despite Ash adopting an *abused former Pokemon* of Paul's that went on to be his most powerful team member in Sinnoh, or at least was treated as such. Keeping Paul would have allowed the writers to get a chance to better resolve that whole theme. Yes, Ash has to replace his team each generation but the writers could have easily come up with a reason for Paul to replace his team. Like maybe Paul has doubts about his style of training and wants to train up a mostly new team using a less harsh method in order to see if the results are different. See? That was easy. It's not like Paul is based on a character from the games or anything, and they could even have kept in Shooti as a secondary rival if they really wanted. I would have liked to see Paul and Ash square off with rivals with a mutual respect for each other. To be honest, if Paul and Ash had had a more satisfying conclusion to things I wouldn't have minded the writers ditching him, but as I've said before with the way things ended Paul likely still abuses his Pokemon for all we know.
 

poizonsting

Pokemon master
I think they should have kept him as Ash's main rival for BW instead of replacing him with Shooti.

If they kept Gary around as long as they did, I don't see why they couldn't have just did the same for Paul.

Why would they keep Paul a main rival for Ash in Isshu? That doesn't even make sense. Their rivalry story was over after the showdown at the Sinnoh league. Ash got what he wanted - the psychological gratification of proving Paul wrong about his training style and his ways of looking at Pokemon. Even Paul admitted that he was wrong and accepted the defeat holding his head high, knowing that he lost to a better trainer on that occasion. He congratulated Ash for the victory, which is very rare for Paul to say, praised Infernape for he had become stronger, and vowed to meet Ash again in the future. A perfect ending for a perfect rivalry. If the writers were just going to bring Paul back as Ash's main rival in Isshu, that would put their effort in the buildup of Ash-Paul rivalry in Sinnoh and its climax in vain. The only possibility I see is that Paul making a cameo, and engages in a battle with his old rival Ash like the one I mentioned on my previous post.

They kept Gary around for long? Ash and Gary didn't even have a proper background of their rivalry. It was only about who is better than who - who gets the more gym badges and who gets which gym badge first. Anyway, apart from that

1) Gary is Professor Oak's (one of the prominent characters) grandson, so he's bound to show up at one point or another.
2) Gary is travelling around the pokeworld as a Pokemon researcher, not as a trainer. I reckon he returned in Hoenn and Sinnoh not as Ash's main rival, but as to shed some light on what he's doing, and to remind us that he's still an old rival to Ash.
 

Krizor

Evil Genius
Again I disagree. Their rivalry would have felt forced if it went on past Sinnoh. With Gary it made sence to bring their rivalry to Johto, it had more to tell and had been going on even before the show started.

I don't think it would have felt forced at all, I guess this is just a matter of opinion.

I really hate when people use that as their reason for not liking Shooti. Fun fact, until Shinji used Torterra against Cynthia people thought he was a rookie too and that Chimchar was his starter. That took 40 episodes. 39 episodes where everyone thought Shinji was a rookie trainer. Guess what? No one cared.

But that was all speculation, once it was revealed that he was an experienced trainer, it all became null and void.

Next Ash isn't bringing his skill level down, he's facing a skilled rookie on equal grounds. As I said Shooti makes up for his lack of experience with knowledge, skill and strategy.

I understand that he's a skilled rookie, but Ash has way more experience than he does and shouldn't be getting demolished in battle by a novice. I could understand if the matches were close, but they haven't been.

Ash would still only be using Pikachu and Isshu Pokemon, Pikachu's power would still be on the fritz and Ash would still make the same mistakes. This had nothing to do with Shooti because that's exactly what happened at the begining of Hoenn and Sinnoh.

But the difference is, Ash didn't have a rival in Hoenn, and his losses to Paul early on in DP were warranted because he was an experienced trainer. If they would have kept Paul, the writers could have easily made him want to start off fresh with new Pokemon too, because of his loss at the SL and his tendency to dump his weak Pokemon, it would have made perfect sense. Then their rivalry wouldn't be as ridiculous and unbelievable as Ash and Shooti's is.

Why would they keep Paul a main rival for Ash in Isshu? That doesn't even make sense. Their rivalry story was over after the showdown at the Sinnoh league. Ash got what he wanted - the psychological gratification of proving Paul wrong about his training style and his ways of looking at Pokemon. Even Paul admitted that he was wrong and accepted the defeat holding his head high, knowing that he lost to a better trainer on that occasion. He congratulated Ash for the victory, which is very rare for Paul to say, praised Infernape for he had become stronger, and vowed to meet Ash again in the future. A perfect ending for a perfect rivalry. If the writers were just going to bring Paul back as Ash's main rival in Isshu, that would put their effort in the buildup of Ash-Paul rivalry in Sinnoh and its climax in vain.

I agree, it was a perfect ending and rivalry, but it could have gone on for at least another saga in my opinion.

And like I said in my statement above, it would have made perfect sense to keep him due to his SL loss and attitude towards weak Pokemon. And since he's an anime only character, they could have made him travel to Isshu as well since he isn't tied down to Sinnoh.

They kept Gary around for long? Ash and Gary didn't even have a proper background of their rivalry. It was only about who is better than who - who gets the more gym badges and who gets which gym badge first. Anyway, apart from that

1) Gary is Professor Oak's (one of the prominent characters) grandson, so he's bound to show up at one point or another.
2) Gary is travelling around the pokeworld as a Pokemon researcher, not as a trainer. I reckon he returned in Hoenn and Sinnoh not as Ash's main rival, but as to shed some light on what he's doing, and to remind us that he's still an old rival to Ash.

Despite the horrible handling of the Ash/Gary rivalry, he was still his rival for 2 Sagas before becoming a researcher.

So I still think the writers could have given Paul more time.
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
Im kinda indifferent about whole thing.Partially i say yes because i liked prospect of Ash having somewhat experienced rival with Pauls attitude and character providing nice clash and interesting chemistry he had with Ash over DP.He has great pokemon,good character and even though his rivarly with Ash may have been over for DP,that doesnt mean writers couldnt further develop rivarly with him opening new subplots an groundwork which would serve as push for further clash.
Afterall Paul is still rival with Ash with whole thing not being completely over(even if it was it can always be revived,which judging by end of Sinnoh wasnt) which leaves space to do more about it.

On other hand i dont think Paul deserves special treatment over other older characters who deserve to return more having more to offer and alot of unexplored potential with unresolved plots of their stories(like first female for example).

Had he stayed he'd be stale. I'm all for a cameo but no more after that.

I dont think its fair to assume this since we dont know how he would be handled if writers kept him for another region.It all depends on how would writers treat his character.

Naturally Paul will always have dislikers which is impossible to prevent,but thats case with every older and new chracter since people have different tastes but there are also lot of them who enjoy in it depending on view of individual if he will like some character or not.

Let's face it: The probability of Paul making a permanent comeback in the show is the same as Misty making a permanent comeback in the main cast.

Well i would say Misty has little higher percentage given how her story was unfinished for most part(like goal for example) being ex main character having more importance in past but that doesnt say much since we all know how astronomically small chance of her return as main really is.
 
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might

Banned
They will not be bringing Paul back and Shooti is a much better rival then Paul anyways,the Best Wishes series is a retool of the show and Paul was a DP character rival only for the Sinnoh arc and he won't be coming back,he wasn't all that great of a rival to begin with and Shooti already beats him as being the best rival,Shooti on the other hand is turning out to be a much better best rival in the show coming after Gary of course and Shooti might stay a lot longer then one region.
 
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might

Banned
Paul will only have a cameo,but he won't be coming back at all and this is the BW series not DP series,Paul is gone for good thank good,atleast Shooti is turing out to be a much better rival then Paul never really was to start with.
 
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Gaiash

Champion Scientist
But that was all speculation, once it was revealed that he was an experienced trainer, it all became null and void.
But the point was that people weren't bothered by what they thought was a new trainer being Ash's rival then so they shouldn't be now.

I understand that he's a skilled rookie, but Ash has way more experience than he does and shouldn't be getting demolished in battle by a novice. I could understand if the matches were close, but they haven't been.
Ash may be more experienced as a trainer but other than Pikachu Shooti's Pokemon are more experienced than Ash's current team (and Pikachu's power being inconsistant is nothing new).

And like I said in my statement above, it would have made perfect sense to keep him due to his SL loss and attitude towards weak Pokemon. And since he's an anime only character, they could have made him travel to Isshu as well since he isn't tied down to Sinnoh.
Sorry but that still sounds forced.

Despite the horrible handling of the Ash/Gary rivalry, he was still his rival for 2 Sagas before becoming a researcher.
I though Ash and Gary's rivalry was better than Ash and Shinji. Also Gary travelling to Johto made sense for their rivalry. Gary wasn't Ash's Kanto rival he was his childhood rival who was always at least one step ahead of him. Shinji was the first of what will likely be many single region rivals.
 

pokemonloverXD

Ash's fangirl
Paul was definitely a great rival but there's no way he'll be back & be Ash's main rival again. I think we can only expect 4 him to make a cameo
 

Krizor

Evil Genius
But the point was that people weren't bothered by what they thought was a new trainer being Ash's rival then so they shouldn't be now.

Well, you can't speak for the fandom in general. I'm quite sure some people had a problem with it at the time.

Ash may be more experienced as a trainer but other than Pikachu Shooti's Pokemon are more experienced than Ash's current team (and Pikachu's power being inconsistant is nothing new).

OK, but that still doesn't change the fact that he's a beginner and shouldn't be destroying Ash in battles.

Sorry but that still sounds forced.

How exactly?

Gary wasn't Ash's Kanto rival he was his childhood rival who was always at least one step ahead of him.

And they both started their journeys in Kanto, so that would make Gary his Kanto rival.
 

might

Banned
Paul is not the first of what a single region rivals will be like because they won't,the reason why Paul last for one region as Ash's rival was because of him being a DP character rival only,Shooti can last more then one region since there is nothing to stop the writers from moving him to another region if they want to,Paul was never the greatest rival but he was ok and that was about it,it is good they made Shooti a rookie trainer since the BW series is a new retool of the show after all,that makes Shooti a lot more better rival then Paul never came close of ever being.
 
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MidnightMelody

Hopeful for Gen 8
Guys its cartoon show. Whatever happens will happen. We can't get crushes on animation. Well certain people have crazy obsession with some girls like Dawn but in the long run we watch to get the enjoyment of entertainment. If you want to watch a show with something to discuss watch Dancing with the Stars where Sarah Palin is up to know good!
 

Gaiash

Champion Scientist
Well, you can't speak for the fandom in general. I'm quite sure some people had a problem with it at the time.
Maybe but they weren't as vocal as they are about Shooti.

OK, but that still doesn't change the fact that he's a beginner and shouldn't be destroying Ash in battles.
Why not? Pikachu's power is never consistant (beats a Regice one minute, draws with an Elekid the next) and the rest of Ash's team are recent captures with little to no experience. Shooti on the other hand has trained his Pokemon enough for two of them to evolve already. Ash lost because Shooti has stronger Pokemon than him right now, simple as that.

How exactly?
Simple. Shinji's story was always building up to the Sinnoh League. The rivalry was set up to end when they battled in that particular league. To continue it after that would be forcing the rivalry. I'd like to point out that Shooti is clearly an Isshu only rival and when Best Wishes ends I'll be having this same conversation with a Shooti fan who thinks he should have been Ash's rival in the next generation.

And they both started their journeys in Kanto, so that would make Gary his Kanto rival.
No. You see the difference here is simple. Ash started in Kanto, that was the begining. Gary isn't the Kanto rival he's the rival who started at the same time.
 

might

Banned
Shooti isn't a only Isshu region rival since they can have him be in the next generation region as still being Ash's rival,Paul was only Ash's rival for the DP series and that was about it,when the Best Wishes series ends they can still have Shooti be in another series as Ash's rival.
 

bigpop618

Dragon Trainer
Why not? Pikachu's power is never consistant (beats a Regice one minute, draws with an Elekid the next) and the rest of Ash's team are recent captures with little to no experience. Shooti on the other hand has trained his Pokemon enough for two of them to evolve already. Ash lost because Shooti has stronger Pokemon than him right now, simple as that.

This is what bothers me. I see this all over this forum but no actual proof to base it on. Pikachu has always been strong. Its power never fluctuates. Really we never knew how long Paul had his Elekid. And to top it off Paul is an experienced trainer. He knew what he was doing because he has been doing it for as long as Ash has save Orange Islands. It didn't happen in Hoenn. And in Kanto and Johto he was far less experienced.

Realistically, Paul won't come back as a main rival. I would have liked to see him back though.
 
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