Shuca Berry Lucario

[Blue Harvest]

A TEAM

BllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllD---*D:

@ Occa Berry
Adamant
232 HP / 252 Attack / 24 Speed

Iron Head
Bullet Punch
Earthquake
Explosion

Rockless Metagross. I've always been a strong advocate of killing the opponent on the opening turns, as opposed to suiciding a poke for rocks a few turns earlier. Metagross stands toe to toe with almost every other lead to some degree of success. Iron Head makes sure Meteor Mash miss ***gotry never gets me. On average, Meteor Miss turn by turn only deals 85 base power, so.. **** it. Explodes on Swampert and Hippowdon to keeps rocks down, and give Tyranitar the freedom to Crunch with minimal fear. Normally the opponent is left with a difficult choice. Get rocks down and lose as many as three pokemon, or kill Metagross at the cost of your lead and Stealth Rocks.

@ Choice Band
Careful
252 HP / 40 Attack / 216 Special Defense

Crunch
Pursuit
Stone Edge
Superpower

Smogon spread, but I never had any problems with it. This set waves good bye to a dozen or so random things in OU. Best of all, it works great with Lucario and Suicune. Lucario slays Gliscor while Tyranitar executes Zapdos and Celebi that Suicune and Lucario hate. Tyranitar also takes down those ****ing Exploding Azelf and Thunder Waving Cresselia that run through Suicune and Lucario respectively. With enough Pursuits even Scarf Heatran will die to Lucario Extremespeed. Superpower in the last slot because of the OHKO on Blissey. Any special based Scarfer or Specs is at TTar's mercy. I'm strongly considering Expert Belt, and Rest Talk over Stone Edge / Crunch to keep TTar alive into late game against pricks like Magnezone and Heatran.

@ Shuca Berry
Adamant
252 Attack / 196 HP / 60 Special Defense

Swords Dance
Close Combat
Extremespeed
Ice Punch

I once had an opponent switch a bulky Flygon in on my Swords Dance. I laughed and Swords Danced again as he Earthquaked, then destroyed his team. There was this other time a Gliscor tried to kill me. Lucario stood bravely as he died to a swift Ice Punch. This other time Zapdos came in.. it was shocked as I survived the Heat Wave, and OHKOed with a +4 Extremespeed. I stayed in on a Weavile and Electivire in two double switching incidents, Swords Dancing right in front of both and killing them. Bulky Shuca Lucario is a set I swear by. Say all you want about the power loss, the defenses lets it boost to power levels standard LO Lucario could never dream of against a competent player. Generally this is guarenteed a kill even in the worst cases. Tyranitar's Sandstorm helps guarentee the kill against Zapdos with +4 Extremespeed and slaughters Rotom, Cresselia and does its best against Gengar. Lucario repays the favor by swiftly eliminating Gliscor and luring out Hippowdon and Skarmory. Suicune enjoys the bloody executions of Zapdos and Celebi too.

@ Leftovers
Bold
252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Special Defense

Surf
Rest
Sleep Talk
Calm Mind

He doesn't lure or trap much but he sure can **** up the opponents team. With Stealth Rocks, Sandstrom and just a bit of residual damage Gyarados dies. Technically Celebi and Zapdos are not counters since I can Rest off the damage, but its generally safer to **** them up with TTar or Lucario earlier in the game. Trick users also screw with Suicune. Luckily Trick is death against Tyranitar. When you are given a Tricked Choice item you continue Tricking. So **** you Trickers. Explosion is annoying but its usually easy to see it coming from mile away. Stopping Suicune is rediculously hard. Too bad theres no way to stick Toxic Spikes here, or that would work perfect alongside Suicune.

@ Yache Berry
Jolly
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Defense

Earthquake
Taunt
Stealth Rocks
Roost

I'm not a huge fan, but Gliscor is. Oh ho ho. Almost funny jokes aside, Taunt Gliscor is what lets Tyranitar swiftly rampage through the more sneaky Pursuit targets like Rotom or Blissey. Yache Berry lets me stay in on Mixape and survive a random other Ice attack at critical moments.

@ Choice Scarf
Modest
252 Special Attack / 252 Speed / 4 HP

Surf
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Trick

Being Pursuit weak isn't such a big deal when you look at what Pursuit would do even if Starmie was pure Water. Better yet, Starmie 2HKOs some Tyranitar and most Scizor with Surf so.. **** them. Revenge killer, even though I normally hate them. Stops Infernape, Gyarados and Salamence cold. Helps against virtually all frail sweepers and can Trick bulky things like opposing Suicune and pissy Celebi that managed to get around Tyranitar.


OH, I never posted it here, but here is my Shuca Lucario set. Just to show how ****ing strong it can be. Copy-pasted from where I wrote it on Marriland.

@ Shuca Berry

Adamant

196 HP / 252 Attack / 60 Speed

Swords Dance
Close Combat
Extremespeed
Crunch / Stone Edge / Ice Punch

Let me explain the concept behind this set. In todays metagame everything is built around outrunning Lucario. If it can outrun Lucario, and conceivably tangle with the metal jackal it probably will run enough speed to do so. Things slower then Lucario such as defensive Suicune, Scizor and Steel-trapping Magnezone do not even hit Lucario's minimum speed due to how pointless it is to sacrifice bulk. In other words, 252 Speed Lucario wastes a lot of energy outspeeding things that don't exist. This set runs 60 speed to outrun 88 speed Rotom. You may drop all the speed if you'd like, since you aren't missing out on anything. The idea behind this bulky Lucario is to survive its counters hits long enough to overwhelm them with Swords Dances. Swords Dance as they switch out, SD again as the counter fails to OHKO, then viciously retaliate. +4 Lucario with no item hits with about 125% the power of a +2 Life Orb Lucario. Here are some calculations! (min / max (average))

(If I write "OHKO" it means 100% minimum. All ground attacks assume Shuca Berry and the opponent switching in as you Swords Dance.)

Jolly

EQ - 41.82% - 49.39% (45.45%)
+4 Extremespeed - 55.65% - 65.54% (60.17%)
+2 Ice Punch - OHKO
*Gliscor remains a counter assuming you lack Ice Punch. But with Ice Punch you always win.

Timid 80 SA

Heat Wave - 75.76% - 89.70% (82.42%)
+4 Extremespeed - 76.04% - 89.58% (82.29%)
*With Stealth Rocks down Zapdos is guarenteed a OHKO. Run Sandstorm to make sure Leftovers don't ruin this.

Impish

Earthquake - 48.48% - 57.27% (52.12%)
+4 Close Combat - 87.38% - 103.10% (94.52%)
+2 Ice Punch - 48.57% - 57.62% (52.86%)
*.. what the f*** is up with this. Does Hippowdon even KNOW he's being hit with a +2 super effective hit and NOT being 2HKOed? All the same, +4 Close Combat does heavy damage. Should it be damaged at all it risks being KOed.

Adamant CB

Bullet Punch - 32.73% - 38.79% (35.45%)
+2 Close Combat - 110.76% - 130.23% (119.77%)
*Survive its Bullet Punch and wreck it. Should you have previously taken an Earthquake (from Gliscor or Hippo), you will also survive this Bullet Punch too.

Spinner

Surf - 41.82% - 49.39% (45.45%)
Modest Scarfmie's Surf - 57.58% - 68.18% (62.73%)
Modest Specsmie's Surf - 86.67% - 102.12% (93.94%)
+2 Extremespeed (vs Spinner) - 84.46% - 99.66% (91.55%)
+4 Extremespeed (vs Spinner) - 126.01% - 148.99% (136.82%)
*Specsmie's Surf can't OHKO on average. Should you know its set beforehand, you should be able to wreck it with little threat to yourself.

(+0) LO DD

Earthquake - 58.18% - 68.79% (63.03%)
Mixmence Flamethrower - OHKO..
DD Mence Flamethrower - 80.00% - 94.55% (86.67%)
-1 Ice Punch - 77.34% - 91.84% (83.38%)
-1 Stone Edge - 51.36% - 61.03% (55.59%)
+1 Stone Edge - OHKO
+3 Extremespeed - 77.34% - 91.24% (83.69%)
*You are playing a dangerous game against mixmence. If it Flamethrowers you die. However, should it do anything else (even Brick Break) you will live to pull off a second Swords Dance and OHKO (you DO have Stealth Rocks down right?)

LO

EQ - 61.52% - 72.42% (66.36%)
LO Gyarados Waterfall - 73.94% - 87.27% (80.00%)
-1 Stone Edge - 51.96% - 61.63% (56.19%)
+1 Stone Edge - OHKO
+3 Extremespeed - 78.25% - 92.15% (84.59%)
*In other words, Gyarados will lose even if you lack Stone Edge. "Crodos" will not be able to land a 2HKO as you Swords Dance in its face. Only bulkydos has a chance, and Stone Edge will end its dreams.

Timid Scarf

HP Fire - 61.82% - 73.33% (67.27%)
+0 Close Combat - OHKO lol
*f*** it up. Only Timid Specs Magnezone with max speed can win against you. It will obviously never switch in.

Earthquake - 47.58% - 56.36% (51.82%)
+2 Close Combat - 73.02% - 86.14% (78.96%)
+4 Close Combat - OHKO
*Kill it with plenty of health left over.

Dynamic Punch - OHKO duh
+2 Close Combat - OHKO (even bulky Rest/Talk)
*Obviously, don't let it hit you.

Surf - 38.18% - 44.85% (40.80%)
+1 Suicune Surf - 56.67% - 67.27% (61.82%)
LO Suicune Surf - 63.94% - 75.45% (69.09%)
+2 Close Combat - 61.88% - 73.02% (67.08%)
+4 Close Combat - 92.82% - 109.41% (100.50%)
+2 Close Combat (vs LO) - 90.35% - 106.43% (97.66%)
*Generally, you will rip it apart. Defensive Suicune is setup bait as you easily reach +6. Offensive is more dangerous, but you can still carve into it with a +2 Close Combat.

Jolly LO

Mach Punch - 60.00% - 70.91% (64.24%)
+2 Extremespeed - 77.13% - 90.78% (83.28%)
*Stealth Rocks and Life Orb means Infernape dies.

Adamant

Earthquake - 73.03% - 86.36% (79.09%)
+0 Close Combat - OHKO
+2 Extremespeed - 56.79% - 67.04% (61.50%)
+4 Extremespeed - 85.04% - 100.28% (92.24%)
*CB Mamowsine will OHKO, and LO Mamoswine will OHKO 66% of the time. Is still not bad odds when you consider it will never switch in.

Bold

HP Fire - 32.73% - 38.79% (35.15%)
Bold Cresselia Psychic - 30.91% - 36.67% (33.64%)
+2 Crunch - 48.65% - 57.66% (52.70%)
+4 Crunch - 72.97% - 86.04% (78.83%)
+6 Crunch - 96.85% - 114.41% (104.95%)
*A testimate to Cresselia's amazing durability when a +6 super effective move can not always OHKO. However, should Stealth Rocks or Sandstorm be active Cresselia is in great danger of a swift 2HKO. Thunder Wave is a ******* of a move, but Extremespeed can help to negate that.

Overheat - OHKO
+2 Crunch - 76.97% - 90.79% (82.89%)
+4 Crunch - OHKO
*You beat every form barring Heat Form. Its important to note that you do indeed outpace most of them, so should they take minimal damage (Pursuit!) it is an easy KO. Unless its scarfed, of course.

Earthquake - 29.09% - 34.55% (31.52%)
+2 Crunch - 68.03% - 80.27% ( 73.47%)
+4 Crunch - OHKO
*Easy KO as long as it doesn't Will-O-Wisp you. Earthquake 3HKOs back on average, which is amazing considering this is a Lucario sponging.. Earthquakes.

Thats all the useful calculations that come to the top of my head. While you can no longer outspeed Timid Heatran, it will obviously never switch in on you. Even then, should it Earth Power you will survive and OHKO.

 

[Charistopher]

Team looks good. Really good. Seems like you did a lot of homework on the Lucario too, which i think is great. Nice team. I'd like to know how your Gliscor does, if at all can it take any ice dmg. I'm deciding on how to spread my EV's for a bulky Gliscor that'll be able to take hits.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Yache Berry, besides giving me a last ditch answer to mixape, allows me to stay in on Blissey and Swampert, to survive an Ice Beam and throw down rocks instead of being forced out. Should opposing Lucario catch me with a predicted Ice Punch, I can survive that too (with enough HP to survive the Extremespeed).

My EVs are pretty basic. I got tired of the speed game with other Gliscor, Zapdos and whatever so I just gave in and maxed speed. Everything else is HP.

Thanks for the comments!

 

[Charistopher]

Thanks! i love bulky pokemon, Gyra rules.

 

[calum]

I saw ShucaLuca a while back at Smogon, and it is supposed to work quite well.

Starmie wants Hydro Pump to 1HKO 4 HP Heatran.

You can then run this spread 80 HP / 176 SpAtk / 252 Spe

Renos spread...

 

[Blue Harvest]

I saw ShucaLuca a while back at Smogon, and it is supposed to work quite well.

Starmie wants Hydro Pump to 1HKO 4 HP Heatran.

You can then run this spread 80 HP / 176 SpAtk / 252 Spe

Renos spread...

I posted Shuca Lucario at Smogon. It got good comments, but the ***gy staff closed it and linked me to the "rate my one pokemon thread" which never gets anywhere.

Why Hydro Pump? It misses.. I know I can OHKO Heatran but is that all it does? Not worth the trade off when I miss Scizor or TTar, or let Infernape survive.

 

[Blue Harvest]

BUMP, damnit.

 

[GIRATINAMASTER867]

hey your team is awsome excpet for lucario shica berry on lucario is noob plus no AURA SPERE????? swtch ice punch w/ aura spher or else u will be CRSUHED by tryanitar/dialga/heatran nad other nooby pokes keep evs the same adn other moves pls give fist plate to boost aura sphere adn own stell types....

 

[rocky505]

hey your team is awsome excpet for lucario shica berry on lucario is noob plus no AURA SPERE????? swtch ice punch w/ aura spher or else u will be CRSUHED by tryanitar/dialga/heatran nad other nooby pokes keep evs the same adn other moves pls give fist plate to boost aura sphere adn own stell types....

You look like the noob here. Never have two of the same type moves on a pokemon and most steel moves Lucario learns are crap. Plus if Lucario didnt have the Shuca Berry he would be OHKOed more often by earthquake. Fist plate is a crap item anyway.

 

[Godzilla]

You look like the noob here. Never have two of the same type moves on a pokemon and most steel moves Lucario learns are crap. Plus if Lucario didnt have the Shuca Berry he would be OHKOed more often by earthquake. Fist plate is a crap item anyway.

If you didn't notice he was an obvious troll you are a complete idiot.

Oh and fyi if you're going to reply to a troll; at least be correct. Having more then one same type of move on a poke is completely fine; in the right circumstances.

 

[Connor™]

If you didn't notice he was an obvious troll you are a complete idiot.

Oh and fyi if you're going to reply to a troll; at least be correct. Having more then one same type of move on a poke is completely fine; in the right circumstances.

Under heavy circumstances. Only when granted STAB on power drop moves such as Overheat and Draco Meteor should a move of the same type be used in conjunction, to justify the drop and make sure you have some form of sweeping potential, rather than being a hit and run pokemon, in which case, you should be Choiced. Example, MixMence. It runs Draco Meteor and Outrage. Note. It is not Dragon Pulse and Outrage but a stat reduction move, one of which reduces the stat which isnt the massive basis of the set.

If you thought he was a troll you're a complete idiot. Serebii CRMT trolls tend to be good raters. Not idiots who blab on about Lucario needing Aura Sphere. Go and do your homework.

All in all, a ****ing solid team. That Lucario set is awesome. I believe you should run the Starmie set Calum mentioned and get over the accuracy problems. So what if it misses a few times, it allows you to take care of a pokemon which could pose nasty problems to you later in the game. Minor nitpick on the first post but in your shuca Lucario explanation, you noted 60 Speed to outrun 88 Speed Rotom H, yet in your spread for the RMT, you label 60 SpDef.

 

[Godzilla]

Under heavy circumstances. Only when granted STAB on power drop moves such as Overheat and Draco Meteor should a move of the same type be used in conjunction, to justify the drop and make sure you have some form of sweeping potential, rather than being a hit and run pokemon, in which case, you should be Choiced. Example, MixMence. It runs Draco Meteor and Outrage. Note. It is not Dragon Pulse and Outrage but a stat reduction move, one of which reduces the stat which isnt the massive basis of the set.

If you thought he was a troll you're a complete idiot. Serebii CRMT trolls tend to be good raters. Not idiots who blab on about Lucario needing Aura Sphere. Go and do your homework.

All in all, a ****ing solid team. That Lucario set is awesome. I believe you should run the Starmie set Calum mentioned and get over the accuracy problems. So what if it misses a few times, it allows you to take care of a pokemon which could pose nasty problems to you later in the game. Minor nitpick on the first post but in your shuca Lucario explanation, you noted 60 Speed to outrun 88 Speed Rotom H, yet in your spread for the RMT, you label 60 SpDef.

Just one thing i had to say; i lol'd, VERY HARD.

First thing who the hell are you and why are you an idiot?

I know all of the certs and Good trolls so nice try there.

First thing Not heavy circumstances as they can be used in any circumstance as a move like dragon dance which is a dragon move+a dragon attacking move, which are two different types of moves. Or it could be a priority move like aqua jet+ a move like waterfall/Hydro pump, or even on a mixed pokemon where they have a physical form of a move and a special form.

There are also just many other forms, aerial ace/roost, etc. You need to do your homework kid. It's BARELY heavy circumstances. God damnit you're pathetic.

Wow. Did you HONESTLY just say GIRATINAMASTER wasn't a troll? Wow. All i have to say is WOW. Go look at his posts and stop being the biggest ****ing idiot around here.

Yeah I now know CRMT is FULLY dead now. When idiotic posters like you start posting in here, its completely dead and won't be coming back.

Honestly, i thank you. You gave me a good laugh. But seriously, just stop.

I also know i will be getting an infraction from this post; but it's worth it telling idiots like you off.

Oh and sorry betterthenlori/blue harvest for spamming your thread.

 

[rocky505]

GiratinaMaster has the exact same post count as you which means you must be a troll.

 

[Annhialator Zero]

dear god rocky shut up. A new member can be a troll too (In fact this is more likely as people coming solely to troll seldom have large accounts, unless like CBC etc they are old members bored of the game), a new member can be a good poster. Your logic baffles me.

 

[KentuckyFriedTorchic]

Ok, first of all, you have a really strong team.

Your mettagross is really deadly to see as first poke, though you go for heavy damage (while i personally would go with type coverage for metagross, but thats just personal taste).

Ttar looks fine, pretty standard but he works.

Lucario on the other hand looks very interesting. Never seen a set like this before, it would be sort of a suprise attack when others think they are up against a standard one. Well thought of and speed evs seem perfect. Great job!

Suicine is a pain to kill, getting free calm minds while you're resting is perfect, you have to watch out for physical sweepers who want to disturb your sleeping beauty.

Gliscor looks pretty normal, nice combo with T-Tar, though Gliscor has minimal coverage with Eq, i never like to use attacks that could be resist with levitate or the flying type. But Gliscor doesn't have any other descent stab attack so it seems irrelevant to switch it into an other attack. And are you running hyper cutter or sand veil?

Starmie also looks fine, gets you some needed type coverage in your team. And it is your stopsign to some of the most dangerous and common pokemon.

Great team, though i would love to see the damage that lucario does to Skarmory. As it is one of the few that could wall a lot/phaze your lucario out. Metagross can't touch Skarmory, and neither can Gliscor (still you do got taunt to get rid of him). Skarmory also could switch into your t-tar its crunch and you'll be forced to switch out. Skarmory also can phaze away your suicune, or taunt it depending on its set/strategy.

 

[Rhys29]

Odd... you seem terribly Breloom weak.

Good to see great minds think alike: bulky Lucario has always been something I appreciated. I just want to make sure the difference between the two sets you posted is not a typo, one investing 60 into Speed the other into Special Defense.

Swampert looks like it could be an issue in the long run so there's something to watch for/get taken care of. Your Gliscor set also looks like it could be investing more physical bulk unless you are running the set to take certain unboosted STAB Surfs better. Otherwise not much to say.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Ok, I know I labled the 60 EVs differently, but I have a reason for that. After testing Shuca Lucario on Shoddy, the only use 60 Speed would give me (outrunning SOME Rotom) was never needed, not even once (I ran Ice Punch anyway). I then threw them into Special Defense (since he survived almost every physical attack, but sometimes had difficulty surviving Hidden Power Fire or random Flamethrowers. If I wrote 60 Special Defense in the "analysis" section I would have to go back and re-do all the Special Defense calculations.

I'm NOT going to run Hydro Pump lol. I'm sorry, but if the only reason you can come up with is to OHKO 6/0 Heatran then its a terrible reason. Surf OHKOs 74.36% of the time with Stealth Rocks anyway. Not to mention some important facts.. One is WHY WOULD HEATRAN SWITCH IN ON ME? Two is I have Tyranitar who shugs off Flash Fire boosted Specs Overheats, which is impossible anyway because there are no fire moves on my team. Three is I have Suicune. Ah hell, I even have Gliscor who can survive a hit from, or hit first against every Heatran type. I'm not going to give up on accuracy for.. what, more Heatran coverage? Come on lol, if anything I'd rather have Heatran alive. Its setup bait for Suicune in every form except the odd Life Orb Explosion. BUT as far as running Reno's spread.. Why? Not saying no, and now that I look at it I will max speed (outruns Jolly Mence by one point) but why not max special attack?

To Rhys.. You're right about Swampert and Breloom, they are by far the two biggest problems this team has had. Maybe I should replace Metagross for a Specially Defensive Skarmory lead? Sandstorm and Spikes utterly ruins Breloom once sleep clause takes effect so if I can force it out just once (Gliscor is ok at this, Skarmory would be too) its practically dead walking. I'm not sure how much more bulk I should run in Gliscor, but the set has been doing ok. Thanks for the rate. Skarmory > Metagross?

 

[Rhys29]

You and I both know how good NoRockGross is as a lead so it should really stay where it is. A simple answer for Pert is using Grass Knot > Trick on Starmie and Fire Fang > Taunt/SR on Gliscor for Breloom. If are to opt for a lead Skarmory you could simply use my set from one of my previous Marr RMT's, swiching around the Defense/Special Defense investments. Something like...

Skarmory@Shed Shell/Leftovers
Careful, Keen Eye
252 HP/ 20 Defense/ 216 Special Defense/ 20 Speed
- Taunt/Drill Peck
- Stealth Rock/Whirlwind
- Spikes
- Roost​

Pretty easy to use. I used all the first options and though it may have been Taunt weak it still worked fine and made my team a pain in the *** to kill. If you don't need WW then you can open up a spot for Gliscor and Taunt can be switched out for Drill Peck (which also means you don't have to invest 20 Speed to outrun Metagross leads). Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Metagross has been working great, consistantly getting kills in nearly every game.

Breloom is an absolute douchebag, but Swampert tends to die to Explosion on the first turn. Breloom is my main worry now. Even so, Breloom has trouble lasting in sandstrom, Taunt, Priority moves and Starmie I guess. Grass Knot > Trick is a good option except for how open I already am to opposing Suicune. Trick helps with stall too. Taunt on Gliscor is vital, but there have been many time I wish I had Fire Fang.

And should I make Tyranitar Rest/Talk? Since literally all he does is Pursuit, then die I was thinking of Rest Talk / Curse / Pursuit. He would stop stall cold in most cases, and actually last against ***gy Latias Surf while not being completely boned by (Substitute) Magnezone in a long game.

 

[Rhys29]

Actually you would be surprised to hear this but I have used Rest/Talk Tar to take down Breloom. Multiple times. It switches into BB, uses Spore only to be nailed by a second BB from Sleep Talk. Rst/Tlk Tar in general just ruins stall, every time I fight stall with it on my team I win solely because he destroys it. Run either the basic 252 HP/ 40 Attack/ 216 Special Defense or even 252 HP/ 4 Attack/ 252 Special Defense in case you need as much Sp.D as you can get. The Curse/Pursuit combo doesn't seem very viable in my mind :/ so the basic Crunch/Brick Break should work well enough since you have no real way to get around Screens on this team.

:/ I don't like to suggest it, but I personally would NEVER consider Trick on a Choice Scarf user that is meant to take down Mence/Gyara. You're basically f*cking yourself over if you haven't seen it on their team yet and you use it. For that I say avoid it but I can see the advantages of having it.