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Smash Brothers for Nintendo Switch (and others)

magma grunt edu

casual hardcore fan
Oooh, so close...Welp, a guy can dream, yeah?

Don't give up yet, remember, marth AND roy, not 1 but 2 characters, came to the west (and europe) without anyone knowing who they were. Shovel knight, despite not being in japan yet, has huge popularity over the west and i'm sure that if sakurai considers indie characters, the most known one that could become a character is certainly shovel knight.

the super mario makes stage became the only stage i wanna play in regular form now. the randomized layout, the changing music matching the set, this is my dream stage. It makes the lack of the sage builder on the 3ds not be noticeable.
 

Tsukuyomi56

Artistic Flair
The main issue with Shovel Knight is that he is a third party character, Nintendo owned characters can get away not being known to everyone since Smash Bros is a Nintendo cross over game with third party guests. All the third party characters that have appeared in Smash Bros are gaming icons and it seems random to add a third party character that only the hardcore fanbase knows about especially one not known in Japan.
 
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magma grunt edu

casual hardcore fan
The main issue with Shovel Knight is that he is a third party character, Nintendo owned characters can get away not being known to everyone since Smash Bros is a Nintendo cross over game with third party guests. All the third party characters that have appeared in Smash Bros are gaming icons and it seems random to add a third party character that only the hardcore fanbase knows about especially one not known in Japan.

yeah, and to add to your point, shovel knight is not even a nintendo exclusive. Snake, pac-man and ryu were very special characters and i don't think nintendo would like to promote a character that people can get in other consoles, akin to the banjo&kazooie situation.
 

Rocxidi

The Jim Reaper
Perhaps the ballot resulted in a huge amount of Shovel Knight votes and Nintendo is willing to consider doing what they did with Snake in Brawl. This could also bring popularity to Shovel Knight in Japan and as a result other indie titles as well.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
The thing to remember is that we're not talking about the main roster here like we are with Snake, we are talking about DLC, which people have to buy on their own. Picking Shovel Knight for one of the final DLC characters poses a risk because he's a character only a specific group knows about. The general audience wouldn't know of him compared to Ryu, and Japan, their reactions can pretty much be summed up with "what's a Shovel Knight?" So you risk losing not only a good chunk of the general audience who doesn't know about him, you lose an entire region who has no clue who he is. That's not something to take lightly, and it may not be worth the potential loss, especially when you have options that are popular all around the world and thus have a more guaranteed return.
 
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Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
I'm bored, so I'll play devil's advocate (I don't think Shovel Knight stands a worm's chance in hell, but he'd be cool).

yeah, and to add to your point, shovel knight is not even a nintendo exclusive. Snake, pac-man and ryu were very special characters and i don't think nintendo would like to promote a character that people can get in other consoles, akin to the banjo&kazooie situation.

Counterpoint: 50% of Shovel Knight's sales have been on Nintendo platforms, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone familiar with the genre of the majority of the games that Nintendo's pumped out over the past few decades; why not leverage that further by encouraging Smash players who buy the DLC to enjoy Shovel Knight's game, along with its platform-exclusive features, on Nintendo's own platforms? This wouldn't be related to something like Banjo-Kazooie, where any advertisement would be to Microsoft's benefit only; if anything, such a partnership could help ensure Shovel Knight sales continue on Nintendo platforms moreso than competing platforms.

The thing to remember is that we're not talking about the main roster here like we are with Snake, we are talking about DLC, which people have to buy on their own. Picking Shovel Knight for one of the final DLC characters poses a risk because he's a character only a specific group knows about. The general audience wouldn't know of him compared to Ryu, and Japan, their reactions can pretty much be summed up with "what's a Shovel Knight?" So you risk losing not only a good chunk of the general audience who doesn't know about him, you lose an entire region who has no clue who he is. That's not something to take lightly, and it may not be worth the potential loss, especially when you have options that are popular all around the world and thus have a more guaranteed return.

What characters does Nintendo have left to add as DLC, then? Most of their big characters are already in the game as is (hence the complaints about Smash 4 adding no-names and bottom-of-the-barrel picks), and half of the characters who are currently DLC would be unbeknownst to the West entirely were it not for their status as Smash veterans. You can say "what's a Shovel Knight," sure, but how different is that from people asking "what's a Shulk" or "what's a Little Mac?"

Other than that, who cares what the general audience thinks or knows about Shovel Knight? DLC by its very nature is sold primarily to the most committed segment of the playerbase, and they'll most likely buy any character DLC you spew at them anyway. With Wolf as the only veteran character left with any real demand, can you really argue that Chibi-Robo or whomever will be a bigger seller than Shovel Knight?
 

TrottingMinccino

Can also jump!
Gosh, I didn't mean to spark such a huge debate with my comment. To think that a little wishful thinking would set people off to be at each other's throats...I'm sorry, i'll just be on my way...
 
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Taodragon

Training Anaylst
What characters does Nintendo have left to add as DLC, then? Most of their big characters are already in the game as is (hence the complaints about Smash 4 adding no-names and bottom-of-the-barrel picks), and half of the characters who are currently DLC would be unbeknownst to the West entirely were it not for their status as Smash veterans. You can say "what's a Shovel Knight," sure, but how different is that from people asking "what's a Shulk" or "what's a Little Mac?"

K. Rool, Dixie, Inklings, and Wolf immediately come to mind, that's four right off the bat and all you need for DLC if the number of slots is a hard cut-off. Even lowering the bar a bit, you have those like Krystal in the wings that are still decently popular. If we include third parties, that gets even worse as then you have examples like Rayman, Bomberman, Snake, Simon Belmont and the like who are far more popular and have a good amount of history to them then Shovel Knight at this point. So no, that's a terrible excuse as you're essentially saying "well, there's no one else," which is just writing off the character's potential problems to make him look better then he actually is.

Also, is Shulk and Little Mac DLC? No? Then that's not really an applicable example. No one asked for you to pay for those characters separately, you do for whatever DLC character comes along, so that's a much bigger issue then with the main game.

Other than that, who cares what the general audience thinks or knows about Shovel Knight? DLC by its very nature is sold primarily to the most committed segment of the playerbase, and they'll most likely buy any character DLC you spew at them anyway. With Wolf as the only veteran character left with any real demand, can you really argue that Chibi-Robo or whomever will be a bigger seller than Shovel Knight?

Doesn't negate the fact that you do want to get some sort of appeal out of them.

Also, that still doesn't account for Japan, who at least know who characters like Chibi-Robo are. Are you really going to say a character that has no presence in one of Nintendo's biggest regions has a better argument then a character that has at least some presence in all regions?
 
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TheDragonKing

King of dragons
Also, that still doesn't account for Japan, who at least know who characters like Chibi-Robo are. Are you really going to say a character that has no presence in one of Nintendo's biggest regions has a better argument then a character that has at least some presence in all regions?

I wouldn't say Chibi-Robo has "presence." He's had four or so games that had mediocre sales, and I'm sure that quite a few people asked themselves "Who's Chibi-Robo?" when Zip Lash was revealed. But Shovel Knight doesn't have that much more presence, especially in Japan. It's been said before, but this is paid DLC we're talking about here, and a slightly obscure third-party character likely won't do as well as if they weren't part of the in-game roster.

Sure, one could argue that not many people knew who Shulk was before Sm4sh, and his inclusion is mostly credited for the sudden rise in popularity of the Xenoblade series. But Shovel Knight doesn't have the luxury of being in the game, and I say this loosely, "for free." Fans of the knight will surely buy him, but those who don't won't exactly be inclined to pick him up. SK doesn't exactly have the fanbase and support of the likes of Roy, Mewtwo, etc. He is popular, but not that popular (or maybe I'm just out of it, idk).

Yikes, didn't mean to rant, but that's my opinion on the matter.
 
What could make or break a DLC character with obscurity in one or more regions is how well they do as a fighter. If they play well, then their popularity will rise. For example, the cut veteran Ice Climbers character(s). They only have one (really old) game under their belt, yet they have a following because of how they handle in Smash.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
What could make or break a DLC character with obscurity in one or more regions is how well they do as a fighter. If they play well, then their popularity will rise. For example, the cut veteran Ice Climbers character(s). They only have one (really old) game under their belt, yet they have a following because of how they handle in Smash.

Yeah, but people didn't have to buy Ice Climber separately. They were included in the base game. Sure, if some random unheard of character got put in as DLC and played really well, people would purchase it, but even more people would purchase a character that is both popular and plays well. It really comes down the economics of the situation.
 
Yeah, but people didn't have to buy Ice Climber separately. They were included in the base game. Sure, if some random unheard of character got put in as DLC and played really well, people would purchase it, but even more people would purchase a character that is both popular and plays well. It really comes down the economics of the situation.

Fair point. Following the logic of representation versus popularity, a character like Shovel Knight would sell better in specific regions where he has representation, while a universally popular character would sell well throughout Nintendo's big areas of marketing. Economically speaking, it makes more sense for Splatoon representation to have priority over lesser known indie characters like Shovel Knight or Shantae.
On the flipside, Smash Bros inclusion is the type of exposure that could propel in indie developer's intellectual property into new levels of popularity. This is what WayForward hopes to do with Shantae.
 

magma grunt edu

casual hardcore fan
I'm bored, so I'll play devil's advocate (I don't think Shovel Knight stands a worm's chance in hell, but he'd be cool).



Counterpoint: 50% of Shovel Knight's sales have been on Nintendo platforms, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone familiar with the genre of the majority of the games that Nintendo's pumped out over the past few decades; why not leverage that further by encouraging Smash players who buy the DLC to enjoy Shovel Knight's game, along with its platform-exclusive features, on Nintendo's own platforms? This wouldn't be related to something like Banjo-Kazooie, where any advertisement would be to Microsoft's benefit only; if anything, such a partnership could help ensure Shovel Knight sales continue on Nintendo platforms moreso than competing platforms.

That's true. Whereas banjo&kazooie don't (and will not) have games released for nintendo anymore, the inclusion of shove knight would boost the game's sale on the wii U and 3ds. Even the consideration of region exclusive characters would be really bad. We got marth and roy because that was not a thing (really late inclusion) and having whatever character not available to all players is just such a bad idea. I'm saying this because one could think about releasing shovel knight as an exclusive to the west. That would just not work, and even worse now that sm4sh is considered a competitive game. Imagine fighting a character you never even seen.

But whatever the character is, i'll be happy to have another (hopefully) unique moveset to experiment with.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
And so, after a series of bouts, the first king of Smash 4 has fallen, ironically to the very character that started it all. Long live our new ruler!
 

Aurath8

Well-Known Member
And so, after a series of bouts, the first king of Smash 4 has fallen, ironically to the very character that started it all. Long live our new ruler!

ZeRo has only lost...2 tourneys since he started with Smash 4? He definitely lost another one very early on, as otherwise the streak would've started with the Smash Invitational at E3 2014. And his record where he and Nairo have been in the same tournament is still something like 13-1 to ZeRo.

It's jumping the gun to say this guy isn't the best Smash 4 player at the moment. That said, I'm glad the streak is over, as it's no longer a question of "who's coming 2nd place this time" at every tournament. Given the hype surrounding this, I'm really optimistic for the future of Smash 4's competitive scene.
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
ZeRo has only lost...2 tourneys since he started with Smash 4? He definitely lost another one very early on, as otherwise the streak would've started with the Smash Invitational at E3 2014. And his record where he and Nairo have been in the same tournament is still something like 13-1 to ZeRo.

It's jumping the gun to say this guy isn't the best Smash 4 player at the moment. That said, I'm glad the streak is over, as it's no longer a question of "who's coming 2nd place this time" at every tournament. Given the hype surrounding this, I'm really optimistic for the future of Smash 4's competitive scene.

I was mostly joking in that post, I'm not saying that Zero isn't the best, I'm only referring to his streak and how the character who was used to beat him (ZSS) was the one that started it all in the first place.

Anyway, I agree that it's nice to know that we don't have to worry about Zero constantly winning anymore as this shows he's beatable, hopefully the tourneys after this show that Smash 4 does have a strong future ahead of it.
 

Dew Watatsumi

Water Type E-3
I was mostly joking in that post, I'm not saying that Zero isn't the best, I'm only referring to his streak and how the character who was used to beat him (ZSS) was the one that started it all in the first place.

Anyway, I agree that it's nice to know that we don't have to worry about Zero constantly winning anymore as this shows he's beatable, hopefully the tourneys after this show that Smash 4 does have a strong future ahead of it.

So true, even Zero himself said that it was better for everyone if he lost. I mean, he has been stressed for a number of different reasons and the streak ending had took a good amount of it off. But still, glad that Nairo won
 

Tsukuyomi56

Artistic Flair
Played 100 Man Smash again just for fun and Lucina is the first character that I have got a clear time under 2 minutes (1 min, 49 secs). Also improved Rosalina's score though I sadly did not get under 2 minutes with her, not going to bother with the other characters since there is not a challenge related to that on the 3DS version.
 
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