Some battles in the anime you thought were complete BS?

[AuraChannelerChris]

All that discussions and no one talks what really matters:

What's YOUR power level?

Over 8000.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Over 8000.

That low? You gotta train more, man. How are you going to have feats otherwise?

 

[Observer]

One of the most BS battles I can think of was when Ash battled May in that City North of Petalburg right before his rematch with Norman in AG68; now I don't blame May for that I blame the crowd of Norman fans.

I mean just about all of them battled Ash just for wanting to challenge Norman to a gym match and when defeated them they pressured May into battling him, keep in mind that at this point Ash and his Pokemon are exhausted from the nonstop battles without a single break along with getting upset when he beat them, and on top of that the crowd was constantly booing him ruining his concentration. When May lauched her attack it ended up hitting Ash instead and he's the one that knocked out not his Taillow, and they still declared May the winner of the match.

Not going to lie but that was a good example of a toxic fanbase and I don't think that Norman would've approved of their behavior.

Lord help Ash if he ever runs into Team Yell.

 

[DatsRight]

So by your logic, Alain's Metang just evolved on its own spontaneously for no given reason, even though we saw Alain battle Satoshi's Onvern with it and win, which helped Metang gain experience and doubled as training? It seems like you simply have a problem with Alain's character overall, and the fact that you're ignoring blatant implications of training is just a testament to that.

Well keep in mind Noivern itself had barely trained before evolving and was probably Ash's most inexperienced Kalos Pokemon. Not to say Metang was inexperienced automatically because of that, I could buy that Alain trained it more than Ash trained Noivern, just that isn't the best comparison.

Evolutions' context is kind of wishy washy in the anime, since they're often a plot armour involved situation or happen through unique scenario. Even in cases a Pokemon trains for an evolution it isn't necessarily a power based approach (eg. Lana's Popplio and Sophocles' Charjabug who were both trained as utility based mons at the time). That's not to say an evolution can't play into power enhancement, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Pokemon is super experienced. It is implied that Mallow's Tsareena evolved more because she was the oldest unevolved Pokemon of the SM class for example, her performance in the league was arguably the weakest.

 

[Jeal]

Except...how is this different from literally any other rival? Gary, Harrison, Morrisson, Tyson, Conway, Paul, Sawyer, Kukui, all debuted Pokemon in their battle that we as the audience had never seen before. Were they all not trained, too? It makes no sense that this applies solely to Alain and not to anyone else, when, like those others, they still showed that Alain had a second Pokemon he was training up, giving the implication there were more.

Seems a bit silly to single that out.

The **** kinda argument is that? You could say the same about Gary's Scizor or Paul's Froslass or any other Pokemon owned by a rival that suddenly appeared on their teams at a league, so why is Alain being hung from the gallows because he had some Pokemon that he didn't show before the Kalos league?

Because we didn't watch 4 entire episodes with Gary/Paul/whatever using only 1 pokémon(not even a rest scene with their full team). And then, in the league, they show up with 5 new pokémon.

 

[Epicocity]

Because we didn't watch 4 entire episodes with Gary/Paul/whatever using only 1 pokémon(not even a rest scene with their full team). And then, in the league, they show up with 5 new pokémon.

God forbid something called "Mega Evolution Special" focus on the Pokemon he's Mega Evolving...

But then, how do you excuse Kukui, who was borderline main cast to the point he lived with Ash and we only saw 2 of his Pokemon pre-battle?

 

[Jeal]

God forbid something called "Mega Evolution Special" focus on the Pokemon he's Mega Evolving...

But then, how do you excuse Kukui, who was borderline main cast to the point he lived with Ash and we only saw 2 of his Pokemon pre-battle?

They didn't need to be focused. A 5 second scene showing even ONE of his pokémon would be enough.

I don't excuse Kukui.

 

[Sham]

This is a tangent but people being upset that Kukui had a full team and only three of his Pokémon was shown before his full battle with Ash was kinda dumb in my opinion. He’s a school teacher and professor; it’s not like he had battle focused goals/episodes. Most of the time he would allow the children to have their fun and handle situations. The plot didn’t demand for him to battle unless he was doing the BR so he didn’t use his full team. What’s not clicking?

 

[mehmeh1]

Except...how is this different from literally any other rival? Gary, Harrison, Morrisson, Tyson, Conway, Paul, Sawyer, Kukui, all debuted Pokemon in their battle that we as the audience had never seen before. Were they all not trained, too? It makes no sense that this applies solely to Alain and not to anyone else, when, like those others, they still showed that Alain had a second Pokemon he was training up, giving the implication there were more.

Seems a bit silly to single that out.

Tbh, the bigger issue is that he didn't use them against Lysandre, but I understand it from a production and storyboarding standpoint (not enough stock animation unlike for Charizard and Ash's team, plus the fight was on a cramped space)

God forbid something called "Mega Evolution Special" focus on the Pokemon he's Mega Evolving...

But then, how do you excuse Kukui, who was borderline main cast to the point he lived with Ash and we only saw 2 of his Pokemon pre-battle?

To be kinda fair, he only debuted 2 mons inside the battle (Lucario debuted in the Guzzlord episode), and Empoleon was said to have been used for underwater research, so it was most likely away for long periods of time. Still no excuse for Venusaur tho (or well, Lucario not appearing prer-Guzzlord)

 

[Epicocity]

Tbh, the bigger issue is that he didn't use them against Lysandre, but I understand it from a production and storyboarding standpoint (not enough stock animation unlike for Charizard and Ash's team, plus the fight was on a cramped space)

To be kinda fair, he only debuted 2 mons inside the battle (Lucario debuted in the Guzzlord episode), and Empoleon was said to have been used for underwater research, so it was most likely away for long periods of time. Still no excuse for Venusaur tho (or well, Lucario not appearing prer-Guzzlord)

Honestly that falls into the Watsonian argument, too. Like why is the battle for World Champion/Monarch/whatever, 1v1? Well, probably because they had to have it all in a single episode. I'm sure if we get Ash vs. Leon it will be a full 6v6 to lend weight.

Though @Jeal we did see one of Alain's Pokemon. It may not have been in the specials, but we saw Metang. But up to that point all he'd fought were 1v1 matches against other Mega Evolutions. What reason would he have to show another member of his team other than to satisfy your strange issue with it?

This is a tangent but people being upset that Kukui had a full team and only three of his Pokémon was shown before his full battle with Ash was kinda dumb in my opinion. He’s a school teacher and professor; it’s not like he had battle focused goals/episodes. Most of the time he would allow the children to have their fun and handle situations. The plot didn’t demand for him to battle unless he was doing the BR so he didn’t use his full team. What’s not clicking?

The issue largely comes from the fact that he's not just a teacher. He's also Ash's "father figure", the one he spends his nights and many days with. The final battle is intended to be all about this "family" vibe and yet...we've never seen over half his Pokemon until the League? Yes, that's where it starts to be off. Honestly, it would still seem strange because he's in so many episodes, but I could personally write off that aspect if it wasn't for the theme they tried to ram down your throat only to say "screw it" without realizing they did.

 

[Sham]

The issue largely comes from the fact that he's not just a teacher. He's also Ash's "father figure", the one he spends his nights and many days with. The final battle is intended to be all about this "family" vibe and yet...we've never seen over half his Pokemon until the League? Yes, that's where it starts to be off. Honestly, it would still seem strange because he's in so many episodes, but I could personally write off that aspect if it wasn't for the theme they tried to ram down your throat only to say "screw it" without realizing they did.

The theme was that the first Alolan trainer being rewarded for being the FIRST by battling the Mask Royal. I'd argue the battle was more focused on Ash's love and appreciation of Alola and it's culture. Gladion was just as close as Ash to winning that title and battling Kukui which completely ruins the whole "father-son battle" theme you claim they were pushing down our throats. I also don't see what Ash's relationship with him has to do with Kukui's team. If you want to make an argument how WHO really should've been aware of his team it's probably the classmates since the anime implies he's been teaching them way before Ash and even Lillie came about. As far as him being in "so many episodes" ask yourself how many focus episodes he got and how many actually heavily revolved around battling like I pointed out earlier. This ideal that Kukui's team is some how tied to him and Ash's relationship seems like a huge nitpick. Is it odd it never came up? Sure okay but stranger things has happened in this anime to be that pressed about that.

 

[Leonhart]

This is a tangent but people being upset that Kukui had a full team and only three of his Pokémon was shown before his full battle with Ash was kinda dumb in my opinion. He’s a school teacher and professor; it’s not like he had battle focused goals/episodes. Most of the time he would allow the children to have their fun and handle situations. The plot didn’t demand for him to battle unless he was doing the BR so he didn’t use his full team. What’s not clicking?

I didn't care about the exposure [or lack thereof] of his Pokemon one way or another. I've said this before, but I wasn't a fan of Kukui-hakase's character in general, and while I didn't think that his Alola League exhibition match with Satoshi was inherently bad, I do think it's incredibly overrated. I was especially irked that Kapu-Kokeko intervened in the battle just so that it could face Pikachu.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

This is a tangent but people being upset that Kukui had a full team and only three of his Pokémon was shown before his full battle with Ash was kinda dumb in my opinion. He’s a school teacher and professor; it’s not like he had battle focused goals/episodes. Most of the time he would allow the children to have their fun and handle situations. The plot didn’t demand for him to battle unless he was doing the BR so he didn’t use his full team. What’s not clicking?

For a series that really, really liked having a multitude of Pokemon out of their balls, he was the only offender who made no sense (other than hiding his Incineroar away). Then there's the fact he's a teacher, so there were plenty of opportunities for him to let his Pokemon out into the sun (or mooooooooooooon) to run his classes.

And even after being found out, he's not even letting his Venasaur relax outside in the garden.

 

[Epicocity]

The theme was that the first Alolan trainer being rewarded for being the FIRST by battling the Mask Royal. I'd argue the battle was more focused on Ash's love and appreciation of Alola and it's culture. Gladion was just as close as Ash to winning that title and battling Kukui which completely ruins the whole "father-son battle" theme you claim they were pushing down our throats. I also don't see what Ash's relationship with him has to do with Kukui's team. If you want to make an argument how WHO really should've been aware of his team it's probably the classmates since the anime implies he's been teaching them way before Ash and even Lillie came about. As far as him being in "so many episodes" ask yourself how many focus episodes he got and how many actually heavily revolved around battling like I pointed out earlier. This ideal that Kukui's team is some how tied to him and Ash's relationship seems like a huge nitpick. Is it odd it never came up? Sure okay but stranger things has happened in this anime to be that pressed about that.

No, it's definitely the theme of family given Ash explicitly asks Kukui if he can use Naganadel in the battle to which Kukui replies "Of course! He's family!". There. That solidifies. Gladion being close is irrelevant because he didn't win. We don't decide a story's theme by what could have been unless that's the point of the story. In this case it was driven by being a father-son battle for fun, but that entire message is undermined by the fact that we don't know much of Kukui's team, and the Tapu Koko intervenes, muddling the waters further.

And regardless of having "focus", Kukui was in nearly as many episodes as most of the main cast. Ash lived there. This isn't like past League opponents where we see them every 10-20 episodes on the road. This is a guy we're with almost all the time, and yet he never lets his Pokemon out? We never see any of them but Braviary and Incineroar? That strains credulity at best. So, yes, there is good reason to criticize that whether you like it or not. Trying to attribute a greater meaning and then failing at the simplicity of execution in that meaning is worth critique. If it was just "why didn't we see Kukui's Pokemon?" by comparing to Alain then, I agree, it would be silly; but it's more than that.

 

[Epicocity]

Ash has said "welcomed to the family" to new Pokemon numerous of times especially in DP. Does this make Dawn his sister or even sister figure? I already said it was sloppy writing so me liking anything has to do with nothing. What I said was most of his episodes weren't centered around battling so therefor we didn't see much of his team and I also said crazier things have happened in this anime than Kukui's team being hidden until the last couple of episodes for shock factor. I didn't take it as a family battle and again took it as a battle to show Ash's appreciation for Alola and his journey thus far. We even got a two minute scene with him appreciating it with Pikachu but yes the main focus was Kuki being family with Ash.
If you decide how things are analyzed, when things are analyzed and why things are analyzed what is your purpose of debating? You cant be the judge and the jury and expect someone to want to debate with you.

Except Kukui was the one to say Naganadel was part of their family. Not Ash saying it. Not saying it was part of Ash's family. The combined their. Perhaps part of it was about appreciation for Alola, but it was in equal measure about that, and I'm pretty sure Tomiyasu has gone on record saying the purpose of Kukui was giving Ash a father figure.

I'm not being judge and jury, but bringing up Gladion in reference to Ash's battle with Kukui is meaningless because he didn't battle him. Could he have? Maybe. But that wasn't the story, so whether he would have is irrelevant. Rest assured we probably wouldn't have seen Gladion vs. Kukui had it come to pass. So, yes, in that case the analysis of a theme can handily dismiss Gladion's chances of fighting Kukui because the story didn't do it. Or should we also look and say "well, Paul could have been the one battling Tobias so it proves that fight wasn't impressive for Ash"? It sounds silly.

 

[mehmeh1]

No, it's definitely the theme of family given Ash explicitly asks Kukui if he can use Naganadel in the battle to which Kukui replies "Of course! He's family!". There. That solidifies. Gladion being close is irrelevant because he didn't win. We don't decide a story's theme by what could have been unless that's the point of the story. In this case it was driven by being a father-son battle for fun, but that entire message is undermined by the fact that we don't know much of Kukui's team, and the Tapu Koko intervenes, muddling the waters further.

And regardless of having "focus", Kukui was in nearly as many episodes as most of the main cast. Ash lived there. This isn't like past League opponents where we see them every 10-20 episodes on the road. This is a guy we're with almost all the time, and yet he never lets his Pokemon out? We never see any of them but Braviary and Incineroar? That strains credulity at best. So, yes, there is good reason to criticize that whether you like it or not. Trying to attribute a greater meaning and then failing at the simplicity of execution in that meaning is worth critique. If it was just "why didn't we see Kukui's Pokemon?" by comparing to Alain then, I agree, it would be silly; but it's more than that.

While I agree with the argument about Kukui's pokemon, I'm actually fine with Koko, as while he wasn't exactly part of the family, he still fits the "father-son" theme for the battle in that he was also crucial for Ash's growth in Alola and was kind of a mentor and overseer for Ash throughout the series (as seen at the end of some of the UB episodes)

 

[DatsRight]

Kukui having a whole team that seldom ever appeared did seem like a bit of wasted opportunity. I get Incineroar was secret but the other Pokemon could have been helpful with class exercises and demonstrations at least. And as mentioned above, it sticks out Kukui's team were mostly undeveloped props when SM favoured having nearly all the protagonist Pokemon out of their balls and treated like characters proper.

One of the most BS battles I can think of was when Ash battled May in that City North of Petalburg right before his rematch with Norman in AG68; now I don't blame May for that I blame the crowd of Norman fans.

I mean just about all of them battled Ash just for wanting to challenge Norman to a gym match and when defeated them they pressured May into battling him, keep in mind that at this point Ash and his Pokemon are exhausted from the nonstop battles without a single break along with getting upset when he beat them, and on top of that the crowd was constantly booing him ruining his concentration. When May lauched her attack it ended up hitting Ash instead and he's the one that knocked out not his Taillow, and they still declared May the winner of the match.

Not going to lie but that was a good example of a toxic fanbase and I don't think that Norman would've approved of their behavior.

Lord help Ash if he ever runs into Team Yell.

I think that was less the battle and more the story, it was one of the few post-OS plots that was actually kind of cynical, that there are some people who aren't bad guys but are just stubbornly assholes who only ever see things their way, and you can't win them over (and really why would you WANT to?).

I suppose it is kind of an amusing take on over obsessed fanbases really, and, as we must confess, isn't too distant from some arguments akin to this thread about how some hits or KOs 'do or don't count'. How ironic they're among the 1% of people Ash fails to redeem. We're THAT bad.

 

[BabaVanga]

All of the rivals Ash faced in the full battle showcased at least one new Pokémon. Gary used Magmar, Scizor and Golem; Morrison used Girafarig, Growlithe, Swampert, Steelix and Gligar; Paul used Drapion, Gastrodon and Froslass; Cameron (let's pretend it was a full battle for the sake of argument) used Hydreigon and Swanna; Sawyer's team was arguably the best handled but he still had one new Pokémon, Slaking. I don't see why Alain's and Kukui's team having respectively four and three Pokémon that we didn't see before is much different from what we had in the past, though I can agree they could've give Kukui's Pokémon a better excuse for not appearing frequently throughout the series.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Ash has said "welcomed to the family" to new Pokemon numerous of times especially in DP. Does this make Dawn his sister or even sister figure?

As far as I'm concerned they are spiritually twins. I really like their dynamic, it was the major highlight of DP. I DO hope we get DP remakes this gens so she can come back and tag with Ash and Goh

 

[Leonhart]

Kukui having a whole team that seldom ever appeared did seem like a bit of wasted opportunity. I get Incineroar was secret but the other Pokemon could have been helpful with class exercises and demonstrations at least. And as mentioned above, it sticks out Kukui's team were mostly undeveloped props when SM favoured having nearly all the protagonist Pokemon out of their balls and treated like characters proper.

I at least admit that the writers messed up a bit by not having Kukui-hakase showcase more of his Pokemon earlier in the SM saga, and given that he was living with Satoshi for three years, you'd think that he would've used his whole team before the Alola League exhibition match. I can somewhat excuse Alain not showcasing his other four Pokemon since he didn't appear often enough to warrant using them all, but Kukui-hakase had no excuse.