*Spoilers and Read the First Post* Controversial Opinions II

[potat_lasaro]

I found the bike/sisters going on vacation excuse a terrible way to write her off. Don't get me wrong I think it was best that she's was written off, but I would have rather have a different reason like something for her water type master goal so that it didn't feel like she was so dependent on Ash.

Eh. I didn't care how she got off the show, just that she did. Ever since her introduction I never cared for her. The entire time she spent with Ash and Brock I was always asking why did they put up with her. I also found it funny how she got forced into going home to the Gym since she technically forced Ash to let her travel with.

 

[DatsRight]

Her being caught out on the whole bike thing she wouldn't stop bugging Ash about felt like a fitting callback, in the Japanese version at least she did at least admit it was just an excuse. It did at least show some sort of development arc, she'd matured by that point that she was hurt Ash still thought that was genuinely all she saw their partnership as, compared to early on when she would bring it up every waking moment to make doubly sure he did.

I suppose she at least get a mini arc afterwards through the Chronicles specials which sort of compensated for how inactive she was throughout a lot of Johto, so something meaningful came out of it.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

I'd argue that Misty's write-off was just fine.

In the first place, she left the gym so she could become a better trainer and escape the shadow of her sisters. Accepting that she had to return because she needed to is a reflection of her maturation. Don't forget that the reputation of the gym mattered to her and her sisters were quite literally handing out badges. For them to rely on her is significant. Contrast that with what the gym has turned into by the time Sun and Moon came about and you can see the work she's done.

In addition, her journey was dependent on Ash's because her entire conceit for travelling with him was that he owed her a new bike. Over time it was forgotten as they grew closer but the whole purpose of its reappearance in the end was to tie up that loose end. Her journey had come full circle. If you want to read more into it, the fact that bike we repaired by a neutral party and not replaced by Ash shows that it was coincidence that they had to part, just as it was coincidence that they met in the first place (whereas had Ash actually replaced it, it would symbolise him trying cut their relationship short). It also means that Misty has no more excuses and must confront the things she's been running away from, which is a positive step for her character.

In the end, her staying at the gym hasn't hindered her goal at all. At some point, she obtained the ability to Mega Evolve Gyarados, mastered it, and came up with that Rain Dance-Hurricane combo. Her skill as a battler has clearly increased during the time she's not been on the show.

 

[DatsRight]

On another note while I like Lillie's characterisation in the anime, I hope they don't drag out her and Gladion's beefs with their mother for much longer. It had validity in the games, but in the anime it's starting to verge as a Martyr Complex for things they never bothered trying to reach out to her about in the first place. It's worrying because the anime LOVES those types of 'get out of jail free' cards.

There's already so many workaholic parents in fiction that I end up siding with because the 'neglected' kid acts like a petty brat who blames all their misgivings and tantrums on not getting superficial attention.

They are probably the ideal characters for Ash to tell to start looking forward instead of backward.

 

[satopi]

I didn't mind Misty's send off. I didn't think it was bad. It's been already established that Misty's older sisters would push all their responsibilities onto her and Misty later on accepted her role of being the Cerulean Gym Leader. She's needed there, she's happy there, and I feel like she's at her peak challenging newcomers to her Gym. She's doing much better there than when she was on her journey with Ash. She has Tracey to help her, she performs her Mermaid character when needed, she's around familiar surroundings, and with Water type Pokémon. She seems really content and had her adventures away from the Cerulean Gym.

I'm not happy with the developed relationship or beef between Lusamine and her children either DatsRight (but I do like her character too.) Despite not playing the games, Lusamine had more reason for her actions while in the anime, it's been chalked down and simplified as Lusamine being a workabholic mother who made one rash decision (evolving Clefairy) without taking note of what her daughter would think. Sure they had good memories just as anyone else would with someone but with Gladion being away for a long time, it makes me wonder why (in the anime). I also think it makes Lillie look immature for holding a grudge against her mother over a one time event or treating her like a child when their problems and backstory has barely been explored. You would think with Gladion running off and Lillie being rude to her mother that they may have had more issues then what was said but I don't know what angle they're trying to convey in their relationship.

 

[DatsRight]

The speech she gave at the end of the AF arc felt off-putting with this in mind, since it was about Lillie still angry at Lusamine over personal hangups. It looked like the whole arc was building up to Lillie accepting not to be dependent, not letting hang ups in the past hold her down (hence her finally wanting to look into her phobia and amnesia for the first time in her life).

Her getting through with Clefable also had more meaning because of this, accepting that despite the hiccup with her mother evolving it, she still bonded with the thing, she still loved it for what it was in spite of a superficial beef. She didn't spend her whole life sulking and keeping away from Clefable just because it wasn't the form she was comfortable with anymore. It looked like they expressing the same connection with her mother; in that Lillie had grievances with her, but she still loved her and accepted she had to let her bubble get popped sometimes, but the final confrontation obscured that.

This is a continuing problem with the anime, they have problems having the protagonists fully deal with the 'warts and all' element of life (Serena with Ash was another case they only timidly dabbled in before quickly backstepping).

 

[SH65]

CO: Am I the only one that while seeing why Serena acted the way she did still sided with Ash in the Snowball scene in XYZ?

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

I have no issues with Lillie's development so far. Imo she feels like the most realistic character since Dawn.

 

[DatsRight]

CO: Am I the only one that while seeing why Serena acted the way she did still sided with Ash in the Snowball scene in XYZ?

I did ultimately. Serena had one argument with Ash and it was enough for her to seriously reconsider her relationship with him. Then she got the normal perfect Ash back straight after because 'the gesture is enough'.

Again being angry and dealing with others' flaws is sad, but it's life. Most of the other companions have dealt with that in a two way manner with Ash, while it was unfair for Serena to handle more than one single vitriolic moment.

SM Ash having arguments with Sophociles and others very early in and it not being treated like the end of the world at least shown the writers had noticed that flounder. It just happens sometimes, even with close friends. I'd love if Serena returned and had some light bickering with Ash just to demonstrate this. Hell ever heard of the term 'like an old married couple'.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

The speech she gave at the end of the AF arc felt off-putting with this in mind, since it was about Lillie still angry at Lusamine over personal hangups. It looked like the whole arc was building up to Lillie accepting not to be dependent, not letting hang ups in the past hold her down (hence her finally wanting to look into her phobia and amnesia for the first time in her life).

Her getting through with Clefable also had more meaning because of this, accepting that despite the hiccup with her mother evolving it, she still bonded with the thing, she still loved it for what it was in spite of a superficial beef. She didn't spend her whole life sulking and keeping away from Clefable just because it wasn't the form she was comfortable with anymore. It looked like they expressing the same connection with her mother; in that Lillie had grievances with her, but she still loved her and accepted she had to let her bubble get popped sometimes, but the final confrontation obscured that.

This is a continuing problem with the anime, they have problems having the protagonists fully deal with the 'warts and all' element of life (Serena with Ash was another case they only timidly dabbled in before quickly backstepping).

Not to mention the AF arc showed Lillie she can do something without being a proper battler. In the scene with Clefable she openly admitted she wasn't good at fighting but had her own way of fighting. It was a great way to showcase Lillie's strength instead of giving Snowball a bs win like usual. I like when characters can admit their limitations and actually work hard to progress instead of the writers just randomly making them win

 

[DatsRight]

Not to mention the AF arc showed Lillie she can do something without being a proper battler. In the scene with Clefable she openly admitted she wasn't good at fighting but had her own way of fighting. It was a great way to showcase Lillie's strength instead of giving Snowball a bs win like usual. I like when characters can admit their limitations and actually work hard to progress instead of the writers just randomly making them win

Yeah, a character not being very good at a key Pokemon events like battling tend to be taboo except for karmic butt monkeys like Team Rocket. Even for characters that don't specialise in battling, usually they try to keep it as much an informed ability as possible (eg. letting them get as much offence as possible and then quickly calling off the battle before they get creamed, if not using any cop out possible within that moment to let them win after all) like they don't really like the protagonists being in loser roles too much. It's hard to buy into or sympathise with a character being an underdog when they're always on the DEALING end of curb stomps.

SM Ash is something of a step up, in that despite his winning streak in battles and some ridiculous hand outs, he is allowed to be AWFUL at some things and fail miserably. It is obvious he can be a winner and a loser depending on the sport. Even with the things he's winning at it's believable since he's been doing it for a very long time.

 

[satopi]

I feel like the AF arc didn't give that much focus on Lillie and Gladion. I wish at least Gladion saved his mother with Sivally. I'm not very satisfied with the AF arc but it had very good moments.

 

[DatsRight]

I feel like the AF arc didn't give that much focus on Lillie and Gladion. I wish at least Gladion saved his mother with Sivally. I'm not very satisfied with the AF arc but it had very good moments.

I'm really hoping the AF arc was just the end of the beginning, instead of the whole thing.

 

[satopi]

I'm really hoping the AF arc was just the end of the beginning, instead of the whole thing.

I hope so too. I have faith that they'll make up for this.

 

[SH65]

I'm really hoping the AF arc was just the end of the beginning, instead of the whole thing.

Well with how SM was before this I won't hold my breath

 

[DatsRight]

Well with how SM was before this I won't hold my breath

Season One despite being more laid back, still had valid substance and characterisation besides a few odd follies though. Along with that enigmatic feel that a lot more was set to come (even if that's not the first time the anime had that feel).

Even within Season Two they have shown hints of going back to things that seemed like they were rushed through in one turn. The two kahunas returning for example. The series has done a few checks for things that would usually end up no hopers by now (eg. some of the companions, Pokemon and TR get key episodes or development whenever it seems like they've been demoted to the background) which leaves me with some hope they might be more careful this time round. MIGHT BE.

 

[Satomine Night]

I'm not happy with the developed relationship or beef between Lusamine and her children either DatsRight (but I do like her character too.) Despite not playing the games, Lusamine had more reason for her actions while in the anime, it's been chalked down and simplified as Lusamine being a workabholic mother who made one rash decision (evolving Clefairy) without taking note of what her daughter would think. Sure they had good memories just as anyone else would with someone but with Gladion being away for a long time, it makes me wonder why (in the anime). I also think it makes Lillie look immature for holding a grudge against her mother over a one time event or treating her like a child when their problems and backstory has barely been explored. You would think with Gladion running off and Lillie being rude to her mother that they may have had more issues then what was said but I don't know what angle they're trying to convey in their relationship.

I think you're oversimplifying Lillie's relationship with her mother. True, it's not the same as it was in the games, but anime Lillie's issue with her mother is not just about her evolving Clefairy into Clefable, and it's not just about a petty grudge. Anime Lusamine is overbearing and condescending; she treats her daughter like a small child, and even calls her a baby. On top of that, she is not only a workaholic, but her workaholicism causes her to neglect her children. (On more than occasion, Lillie complained about her mother never spending any time at home.) Complaining about your mother being a neglectful, overbearing, and condescending parent isn't immature.

Whether Gladion had the same issues with Lusamine that Lillie did was never really explored in the anime. However, he did call Lusamine out on neglecting her children; specifically, he made a point of calling her out on the fact that she never tried to learn why Lillie suddenly grew afraid of touching Pokémon. He also called her out on wanting to meet an Ultra Beast, even though an Ultra Beast caused Lillie's fear of touching Pokémon (remember, in Gladion's mind, Nihilego was the cause of Lillie's fear).

I do agree that Lillie and Gladion's relationship with Lusamine isn't quite as powerful in the anime as it was in the games, since game Lusamine was a far crazier character whose obsession with Ultra Beasts contributed to her neglecting her children. However, many of the key elements of Lusamine's relationship with her children—namely, her condescension and her neglectful behavior—were carried over from the games to the anime.

 

[GarchompTheAssassin]

M20's Charizard is more likeable and easier to root for than the one from the series

 

[DatsRight]

The issue is that it's implied that neither child even TRIED to reach out to Lusamine in the first place. It looks like Gladion had only now even bothered to tell her or anyone else that Faba's scheming was the cause behind Lillie's phobia, instead thinking the immediate goal beforehand is to go aloof and get stronger, which again made more sense in the games because he couldn't deal with her mother anymore (and Lillie called him out on the hypocrisy of abandoning her in his attempts to 'protect' her which she hasn't so far in the anime, it just seems like a side effect of plot holes).

Yeah Lusamine should be there for them and be able to better read when something is wrong, but if they just hold in their problems until they reach breaking point so she can't do anything in the first place, that's as much their fault.

This is where a flashback episode of the family would come in handy to give better context to the whole thing.

 

[SH65]

M20's Charizard is more likeable and easier to root for than the one from the series

This. I hated the Ash's Charizard in Kanto he was a dick for no good reason and was one o the reason Ash lost the way he did in the Kanto league.