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SPPF Christian Alliance

Discussion in 'Clubs' started by Pikawho?, Nov 21, 2008.

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  1. ShinySandshrew

    ShinySandshrew †God Follower†

    Let me grab a quote from an article on gotquestions.org.

    Does that help explain?
     
  2. Pikawho?

    Pikawho? (five15)

    Ethan: Valid question. The quote SS posted covers it. Jesus bore the sin of the world so that we wouldn't have to. That is what He meant. Not bearing the weight of our sin is not the same as taking up our cross with Him. Our yoke is easy in that we no longer need to pay for our sins. Surely being attacked for what we believe doesn't compare to the wrath we deserved. What more can we expect from Him? He sacrificed His Son for the world. We're put through trials to perfect our faith. He promised that He would never put us through anything that we could not handle.

    I've added the prayer requests to my mental list.

    *gets shot for lying about not being on at all this week*

    My excuse for breaking my promise? Two tests that were supposed to happen were just postponed till next week. I knocked out the homework that would've been due beforehand so now I have freetime...Don't get mad at me....lol
     
  3. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    If you want an atheistic perspective on why Christians get mocked, I can give you an answer that doesn't involve inflating my ego..

    That is, if it is welcomed.
     
  4. Pikawho?

    Pikawho? (five15)

    I'll leave it up to the other members to decide. As long as you're not like "lol! We mock you guys cause you're dumb enough to believe *insert whatever*" it's fine. Just be polite and don't tell us that we're wrong.

    However, I'm not the one who initially created the topic so I'm not sure if the OP was looking for a definite answer or just seeing what our thoughts were from personal experience.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  5. Taneka

    Taneka Pokemon Collector

    Hey all

    I'm back from a wonderful four days with my grandma. The visit to my future inlaws went well everyone except my fiancee had a good time. She was so stressed that everyone was going to fight. All in all it went well
     
  6. ASB

    ASB Weather Team Hater

    Anyone else getting lovely little messages from the Tee Hees lately? If you see one, do NOT scroll down to it. EVER. Delete it and move on, you have been warned.
     
  7. Pinsirius

    Pinsirius Sentimental Fool ;)

    I have a lot to say on this subject.

    1)

    -You can have outright misunderstanding of terms, such as the Lord's Supper equaling cannibalism or compiling lists of "What You must do to be Saved" and mentioning every such prayer in the Bible- the list I saw was nearly 120 selections, despite a good number of them being individual or blatantly contextual pleas. Lets not forget "Christians care about the afterlife, not the present."

    -You have the usual historical stains on the faith, the crusades, the historical power-mongering of the Catholic Church or, to invoke Godwin's law, Hitler's Catholicism, which tends to be falsely covered up with his supposedly becoming an atheist when he came into power.

    -You can have points on which the Christian really can't win, such as the justice of Hell or absolute proof that Jesus wasn't inspired by the Myth of Mithra and other stories like it (How the lower-class Jews that founded the faith would know about such things is what confuses me). Or even the metaphysics the Bible doesn't think about, such as how Heaven and Hell can hold the absurd number of people they're supposed to. Or how do we know the apostles didn't make up the resurrection story to justify following Jesus for three years rather than admit they done goofed?

    - The sickening amount of simplistic apologetics and bad "evolution counters" that I've seen thrown around in books and online only to be ripped to shreds. Christians don't have the authority or alternative information blatantly deny evolution, and we should stop thinking we do. We've all seen examples of these, I'm sure.

    - The massive number of Protestant offshoots. If someone asks "I can't believe this until you get your story straight", they've closed the discussion completely.

    - The American Religious Right. I'm religious and right-leaning, and I facepalm with some frequency at some of the things that come from the movement. Be it overcharging moral issues when there are more pressing issues, or bits like their attacks on Pokemon. Or the affluence of those adhering to a religion founded by a hobo who emphasized the poor- and the massive amount of donated money and mission work done by Christians not counting for anything because you don't have to be Christian to do these things.

    ...Not that Pokemon isn't materialistic in the least.

    - Religious debates being fundamentally one-sided because your pitting a 2000 year old theology and lifestyle against the statement that there is no God.

    - An exemplary story I recall reading from an Indian apologist (Not sure whom, I've read two fantastic ones), as in in India, not Native American or Indian-American, being told by his parents "Jesus is a common curse word, how can you follow a man like that?"

    May seem pessimistic, but there really is a lot of ammo.

    2)

    In "Western" Society, even in Europe where many countries have numerous citizens overjoyed to be free of the Church (Not that much of Europe lacks more than adequate reason), and perhaps even beyond that Christianity is one of the most well-known and simultaneously misunderstood religions. That familiarity makes it the easiest and safest to attack. I've heard Hinduism and Buddhism praised as lifestyles, rather than dogmas like Christianity and Islam, because they aren't aware that both faiths have some really complex stuff in their texts, if I recall correctly, particularly Buddhism.

    Inspired by the Brick Testament, no doubt.

    Not that the Brick Testament isn't cool, built by an atheist or not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  8. chosen_one386

    chosen_one386 Angel of Chaos

    Sorry I haven't been on. >_< I had a major exam this week that I think went well. Today is registration, which is always extremely stressful at Tech, so...please pray that I don't go too far overboard with stress today...
     
  9. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    I guess I'm chopped liver lol
     
  10. Dread Advocate

    Dread Advocate †Stay Metal†

    PRAYER REQUEST: Tomorrow I'm taking the ACT. IF you don't know what this is, it's a test whose scores will help determine what colleges will accept me and which ones won't. I'm not nervous or anything; I don't get nervous when it comes to tests. Please pray that I do well.
     
  11. TheFightingPikachu

    TheFightingPikachu Smashing!

    Insubstantial Objections All Around

    Thanks for the warning. I've just seen a few discussions about them. Haven't actually seen any messages or posts by them.

    You recall correctly. They were also accused of incest, because they married other Christians, whom they called "brothers" and "sisters." To insiders, it was obvious that the word was not being used of physical siblings. Was it obvious to outsiders? Not so much.

    That is a good point. I had heard that Hitler was an atheist, but when I got onto the Debate Forum, I didn't hold on to that idea. Still, when I would say that Hitler was not a Christian, I'd get slammed for supposedly using a "No True Scotsman Fallacy." So I pointed to Hitler's belief in an "Aryan Christ." As a parallel, the group formerly known as "Black Muslims" (or "the Nation of Islam") taught that a man named Wallace D. Fard was Allah. They also taught that white people are the devil. These beliefs are fundamentally opposed to traditional Islamic belief, since Muslims hold that Allah can not be a man, and early Islamic tradition talked about Muhammad being light-skinned! Thus those people were not Muslims in any real sense. in the same way, Hitler's belief in a fictional Christ makes him "No True Christian." To see skeptics fight against such logic is truly humorous.

    Actually, you've already provided good evidence right there for why beliefs about Jesus would not likely have been based off of that. However, I found a Wikipedia page with some great stuff on it. The real problem is that the case for Christian dependence on mystery religions is that it is so often presented as certain: "Christians just borrowed their beliefs from Mithraism!" Almost always, the supposed "proof" of this relies on elements from mystery religions, like Mithraism, which were not around that region at that time, especially not in the form being proposed. Even worse, proponents of the view that Christians borrowed stuff from these religions sometimes literally make stuff up, like the claim that Mithras was virgin born, or that he died and came back to life.

    And regarding the population of heaven and hell, it is interesting that I've actually heard skeptics on the Debate Forum bring that up (it was in an evolution debate, so I didn't comment). Our universe is immense; probably large enough to hold millions of times the total number of people who have ever existed. Not only that, it is expanding. It's not hard to imagine God making a bigger universe (especially with the idea of infinitely many parallel universe being championed by some scientists).

    And it is interesting how often the idea of Jesus' followers having "made up the resurrection" comes up in debates. This, of course, overlooks the fact that Paul, who started out violently opposed to Christianity, wrote letters within twenty-five years of Jesus' death, proclaiming He had personally seen a resurrected Jesus. That's how we know they didn't make it up. And the fact that these people, including Paul, were willing to suffer the death penalty instead of saying that their beliefs were false. Even the Bigfoot hoaxers who have admitted they were faking evidence haven't faced the death penalty!

    I agree that there are too many anti-evolution arguments that are based on bad reasoning. For example, the Bob Jones University textbook Biology for Christian Schools (second edition, page 188) put forth several arguments why the earth must be young. Looking back, it should have been immediately obvious that two of their arguments were opposed to each other:
    • Volcanoes produce too much rock for there to be any water left.
    • Volcanoes produce too much water for there to be any dry land left.

    Of course, this is no more ridiculous than the atheists who hold that Noah's ark wouldn't hold all of the many trillions of animals in existence (when there are really only a few billion). But it is disturbing.

    Amen about attacks on Pokémon. I think it is shameful some of the badly misleading or even simply untrue statements that have come from Christians about Pokémon. Trying to connect the evolution in Pokémon with Darwinism? I've seen that, and it's sad how some people just hear the word "evolution" and run. And you bring up a good point about materialism in Pokémon--it's just a shame that in order to criticize that some Christians stopped criticizing worse materialism in...everything else.

    However, I don't generally think that the Religious Right has overcharged moral issues. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people on the Debate Forum argue that abortion should be allowed in whatever cases, yet simultaneously not allowing for the idea that there should be any restrictions on it at all! On the other hand, it is disturbing to hear some claim there are restrictions on it, or that "no pro-choicer argues for abortion after the start of the third trimester," when some argue for it right up until birth (or even partial birth)!

    I don't think my religion allows me to think about chopped liver. Away with you chopped liver-mentioner! I'm joking, of course. I'm pretty sure that the atheistic/agnostic response to why Christians are so mocked can be generally summed up (without putting words in anyone's mouth) in three to five words, though:

    "Because you're wrong. And ridiculous."

    We hold that there is evidence of God's existence; atheists/agnostics wish to use an unreasonable standard of proof. There is extraordinary evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, but skeptics wish to hand wave it away with statements like:

    (Ridiculous because it was Mary Magdalene, not Mary the mother of Jesus, who didn't recognize Jesus after His resurrection. And even then, she didn't recognize him for a few minutes, at first.)

    (Youtube videos? I'm being charitable when I suggest that this is a very stupid argument.)

    (This is hand-waving because the life expectancy of that time was not so low as to preclude someone writing forty years after the fact. And where did Tim get his statistics? And Paul wrote even earlier. And the general life expectancy of a time period/area can't be used to assert that specific individuals couldn't have lived a certain length of time.)

    (When were the biographies of Buddha written?)


    Or even your own statement:
    But it is evidence, because:

    Let me state it again. Some of the letters from Paul in the New Testament, whether you consider them Scripture or not, report that he became convinced that Jesus came back from the dead. This despite the fact that he had previously tossed in jail and persecuted people who followed Jesus.

    Remember, for me to say, "GhostAnime, this book was inspired by God, therefore, you should believe it," would be circular reasoning if I don't give you any reason for accepting that. I don't attempt to get you to consider it a source in that manner, before I attempt to show, by ordinary historical standards, that Jesus came back from the dead. But the books in the Bible, since they were undoubtedly written by humans, should be examined as books written by humans. Some people point to some small supposed errors in one of the gospels as disproving the whole thing. Yet no historian treats other human's writings in this way.

    I'm terribly sorry to everyone that this post has been so long, but GhostAnime, I really hope you've read what I've said. I don't mean it as an attack on anyone. A lot of atheistic objections to belief in Jesus stem from insubstantial arguments. Nobody can make you believe in Jesus, but I would be glad if you'd actually look into the issue and discuss it with people like us instead of just starting with the idea that supernatural things are ridiculous.
     
  12. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    .. I'm not debating you here, dude.
     
  13. I'd like to point out that God didn't say to put two of each animal on the Ark, but two of each kind of animal. This is important, as there would only be a few thousand kinds of animals on the Ark, as opposed to million. Others also may argue that the dinosaurs were too big to fit on the Ark. This argument is equally as empty, as keep in mind that dinosaurs were not always giant; they were once small babies. All in all, the huge ark with dimensions listed in the Bible would have plenty of room for the animals, people, and plenty of food.

    Aw, he gets ganged up on so much in the debate forum. Let him have this one. ;P

    Anyways, I'd love to hear your explanation. Probably nothing I haven't heard of before, but go ahead and shoot.
     
  14. VictiniTrainer

    VictiniTrainer Well-Known Member

    If anyone thinks this is kind of funny. One of my Agnostic friends thinks that the Apostles ate Jesus's body, its rediculous, stupid, and sorta funny at the same time XD

    Hopefully i didnt offend anyone :S
     
  15. NimhShambler

    NimhShambler Fighting Type Prof.

    I know that this is likely bragging, but I want to share. I'm going to put it in spoilers, in case no one wants to read it all. It will likely be a bit tl;dr. It also may be a little rambling, but my medication has left me a little floaty.

    People often see me and ask, "How can you still believe in God? Why do you still believe He loves you when you're suffering?" I won't lie to you guys. I am in terrible health. I am in extreme pain every single day. I can barely walk (which is why I have a wheelchair now. Got if from a Christain Charity house. I'll talk about that in a moment.) I have to be doped up on my medication just to keep from lying in bed, screaming. To top it off, I have skin-cancer now. I got it from my mother. She had it while she was pregnant with me. I've been able to fight it off for 22 years, but because of my Fibromyalgia, my immune system is gone.

    It would seem that I have a hard life, sick, born into poverty, and was homeless when I was 8 years old, bullied to an extreme degree throughout my childhood. But I still have faith. I know that all of this is in God's plan. I don't know why I am sick, but I know that God knows why. It isn't for me to know. I trust in God's greater wisdom, because that's all you can do. God knows it all, He knew I would be sick like this my whole life, way back in the beginning. He knows all. In fact, He is the font of all knowledge. We only know what we know because God allows us to know it, but I digress.

    I know The Lord loves me, He loves us all, even those who are sinners, and those who don't believe. He loves them, but not their sin. God is a god of Love. It is by His grace that we even draw breath. I thank God for that every day. I know that my entire life is guided by God. I nearly died of pnemonia as a little girl. It inspired me to be a doctor. I studied medicine for years, and went to college as a pre-med student. As part of a research project, I did a thesis on Fibromyalgia, one of my ailments. In that study, I found out what would happen to me, but I still had a pre-med class left. It was "Human Growth and Development." Most of our grade was over a thesis we had to write about a specific age group. I chose Pre-schoolers, because there is a pre-school near my house. I went in not liking kids very much. I had previously worked at a day-care center, and there were some bad children there. I was afraid that all of them were like that. After it was done, I loved those kids. It helped shape my decision to be a teacher.

    God had it planned all along. He knows what's meant for me. God loves us all, and knows what's best for us, even if we don't.

    I am truely grateful for the Christian Charity mission in my home town. When I am able, I will give back for all that they gave me. I thank God for them. They are the reason that my family gets to eat, sometimes. They are the reason that I have a wheelchair. I could not have afforded one without them.


    Just wanted to get that off my chest. I don't have a lot of people I can talk to about my faith and all that.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  16. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    I am first going to assume that when you guys say mock, you mean making fun of Christians as if they were kids still believing in Santa Claus.

    With that said, I can be guilty of that at times and it is mostly internal. I certainly don't express it as much verbally but it is there inside of my mind. It is probably in the majority of non-believers mind's mostly because that's simply the mindset that comes with rejecting your beliefs.

    So, why go out of our way to torture you guys? Why treat you like you have no common sense? In order to at least understand the perspective (keyword understand; not agree with), you're going to have to compare it to say, something you yourself disbelieve that someone else strongly believes in. A perfect example would be a conspiracy theory.

    Personally, growing up in the South being the only non-religious person, it's hard. Every time I express doubt, people just try to scare me with hell. They make all sorts of crazy prejudgments; so much that I just decided to lie and say I was a Christian to at least keep good relations with people. No one honestly never treats me with respect after I reveal my beliefs about the existence of God and even if they were interested in debating, they just act arrogant.

    Then, I see my own hometown which is ruined through corrupt government and dumb people who don't realize it. The town has produced nothing of value outside of a bunch of churches on every corner. Christianity is the solution to everything in this place. People are far too focused on religion. Instead, we should be talking about things that may actually progress.

    As for my family... they're the same way. Christianity is the solution to everything. It is the solution for your health, our future, and anything else. You see, I am a man of action. I constantly want to tell people that in order for things to improve, we have to talk about things that have worked. Taking kids to church is not going to prevent them from becoming criminals or anything of the sort. Essentially, everybody thinks that Jesus is going to pull a kid's pants up and show him the direction in life to go.

    I simply find that intellectually lazy from my family and anybody that honestly supports this notion. Even on FaceBook, people make God statuses every day. Preaching and expressing these good quotes about how to make their lives better, but no specifics. I know the specifics, and I feel that religion clouds them to make people feel like they've found a solution when really, they've only deluded themselves into thinking that's all it takes to solve all of life's problems. It's so sickening on our side to see what looks to be brainwashing to us. The same lovey-dovey phrases repeated over and over with little substance and answers for any problems..

    In short, living in America as a non-Christian is just terrible. All these pent up emotions about being the only one to think the way you do, being the only one to see the way you see, and sometimes having to hide something about yourself just so nobody will judge the hell out of you is horrible.

    All of these feelings are bottled up into aggression. Enough aggression to assault anyone associated with the constant media portrayal of Christianity in combination with our own experiences.

    And let's not forget our friend God. God in the non-religious point of view is very different. While I am not here to debate whether it's true that he is this way, God to us is simply a dick if he exists. I won't go into detail on why since most of you already know where I'm going with it, but it almost feels like the possibility of people believing in the fact that God put people like me in this position is the dickish thing ever.

    So, there you have it. The American perspective of being atheist. Surely other countries have nicer atheists because religion is less shoved down their throat, but you can bet a mean atheist is more likely to be an American one for these reasons.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
  17. ASB

    ASB Weather Team Hater

    Wow, you have been through much more than most of us here can say they have. God has tested you a lot, much like he did Job, and you're doing well. I'll pray that the doctors are able to keep your conditions in check for as long as possible. Inspiring.
     
  18. NimhShambler

    NimhShambler Fighting Type Prof.

    Thank you, but I'm no Job. I'm just me.

    I thank you all for your prayers, and will keep you all in mine.
     
  19. SilverLugiaJ

    SilverLugiaJ Insert clever title

    It really makes me happy to see a Club like this on Serebii. I've been a Christian for my entire life, but i was save a few years ago. I would like to join :)
     
  20. Yeah, Jesus did say "eat my body" and "drink my blood." Lol, this gets taken literally so many times!

    @GhostAnime: I'm glad you got around to posting! I hope you don't mind reading my rediculous long response! ^_^

    Ok, I can see where you're coming from with this. You consistently see Christians push off their problems as, "God will take care of it" without any serious effort or work. Am I correct in saying so? I suppose this would be an annoying thing for a non-theist to have to experience. However, you must also see where the Christians are coming from. We as Christians truly believe that God is the one who made the universe and sustains it even to this day. If there was anywhere to go in our hour of need, it would be him.

    However, I would like to know if the Christians in question are really doing nothing as you say. From what I've experienced from my life is that Christians working towards a goal will always work as hard as possible, but will ask God to multiply the results farther than would be humanly possible. It's not that we don't work and strive towards our goals, but we just ask God to take us past those goals further than we can alone. Our church for one raises thousands of dollars a year for the homeless in Athens, GA, building and education projects in Lima, Peru, and a plethora of other local and distance mission projects. Still, we have seen success in these areas that we alone could not achieve whenever we asked God for additional help.

    Now, you may actually have legit lazy Christians in your area, those who will expect God to do all the work. Truth be told, they are partially neglecting the Bible with their actions! Take 2 Thessalonians 3:1-13, for example. You see, during the first letter to the Thessalonians, Paul tells the people of the message that Jesus would return soon. The Thessalonians misunderstood the message, and they thought that they could sit idle while waiting for Jesus to return, who they thought would return any time. In 2 Thessalonians 3:1-13, Paul writes back to the Thessalonians warning them against remaining idle. Although God can provide for us and Jesus could return very soon, we should still work to serve others and work for our livelihood as hard as we can. As the saying goes, "God helps those who helps themselves."

    Now, as far as the persecution you say you have suffered, you are right about one thing. The way you describe their actions is not decent or very Christian of them. However, sometimes you have to wonder are they really trying to be prejudice and "shove religion down your throat" to be mean? Or are they doing it because of love and compassion? I know that some people can be mean; those kinds come in all different flavors, not just Christian. However, if you honestly believed that you knew the one way to salvation and a perfect eternity in heaven, would you not be ecstatic to share that message with everyone you can and make sure that they will have that gift of salvation? This is the loving and caring approach that many Christians take, and it is unfortunately interpreted as "shoving religion down someone's throat."

    Now, allow me to shed a little light on the question as to why Christians may be aggressive towards atheists, from my own personal experience. You see, every day Christians are taught in science classes this theory called "evolution" that contradicts their beliefs, and they have no input in the education whatsoever. This theory is claimed to be "science," even though it takes at the least millions of years to fulfill and is therefore hardly observable and unable to be experimented, its only "demonstrations" are events like moths changing color and bacteria resisting drugs, and has loads of "evidence" that can easily be reinterpreted to support a biblical worldview. Now, keep in mind that I'm not trying to bomb secularism here or start a creation/evolution debate, but you see what I'm getting at. Imagine if you had to endure and be taught something that you thought was complete B.S. by your worldview. While atheists are not being preached Christianity in public schools (legally, at least), Christians are being preached evolution constantly. That can breed aggression very easily, although I still would never endorse it under any circumstances.

    As for God being a "dick," I can definitely see where you might be going with that, perhaps using the "evil Hell=evil God" argument. I truly hope that you will not resort to such a novice anti-Christian argument, but your other point is a valid one. It does seem that a loving God wouldn't put you in situations like yours. However, consider this. Say God loves you extremely and wants you to know the gift of salvation from Jesus Christ so that you can spend eternity with him. He most likely put those people around you so that you would hear that message. However, was it really God's will that you would be annoyed so? I'd wager not. You see, many people are given a purpose and duty by God and get overzealous about it. Take the story of Jehu, for example. God instructed him to enact justice on the house of Ahab to avenge his people and the prophets. However, Jehu got overzealous and bloodthirsty. Not only did he strike down the evil and corrupt Ahab, but he went on to kill his entire house in Jezreel, something God did not instruct him to do. A similar situation happened to Saul, who was so intent on protecting the Old Testament, he went as far to kill those who believed in the new Christianity faith before his conversion. These people around you might have been placed there simply to share the love of Christ with you, but got overzealous and overconfident, turning into a hostile and arrogant attitude. I'm sorry you are treated the way you are, and I constantly have to remind friends to mind their own attitudes about Christianity and other beliefs.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts in such a honest manner! I'm glad that you were able to present an atheist perspective (which I, for one, completely understand) without bombing Christianity. I hope that you found the same respect and honesty in my post, as I can be a little passionate about these things myself. It's good to see another point of view, and I hope you understand mine better as well. God Bless!



    On a lighter note, I have a joke I think you guys will appreciate. Enjoy!

    There was once a man walking through the woods. He was a well known atheist who had spoke against God all his life. As he was walking through some bushes, he heard a loud crash. Suddenly, a large brown bear burst forth from the brush! The man turned around and started running for his life, but the bear was right on top of him. The man fell on his face as the bear closed in on him. The atheist yelled, "Oh God, help me!"

    Suddenly, time froze. The atheist rolled over to see the bear frozen, as well as the forest around him. He suddenly heard the voice of the Lord say, "You have spoken against my name and my people since the day you were born. But now you ask me for help?"

    The atheist timidly answered, "Uh, yes sir. I am, after all, on the border of death."

    The Lord responded, "Very well. What do you want?"

    The atheist thought for a moment. "It would be very hypocritical of me to suddenly ask to be a Christian, but could you, perhaps, make the bear a Christian?"

    The Lord chuckled and said, "Agreed. I will Christianize the bear."

    Time suddenly unfroze. The atheist heard the wind blowing, and the trees rustling. He cringed, expecting the claws and teeth of the bear, but none came. He looked up to see the bear with its paws together, praying. It worked! The bear was a Christian! He wouldn't kill him now! But then he heard the bear say...

    "Lord, please bless this meal that I am about to eat. In your name, amen."
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2011
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