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SPPF Christian Alliance

Discussion in 'Clubs' started by Pikawho?, Nov 21, 2008.

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  1. Matoro

    Matoro Toa of Ice

    Okay, sorry if this seems a little harsh, but when you ask where the logical backing for helping people is, it comes from the fact that God tells us to. Where does this authority come from? Well, we can logically demonstrate the ridiculously high probability of the accuracy and trustworthiness of the Bible, in which God tells us to do certain things. This authority comes from the acts he has performed (i.e. miracles) to demonstrate that authority. Once this is established, Scripture becomes a viable weapon, but it is still possible debate without scripture. With a fellow Christian, you can use the authority of God as a tool to make points, whereas with an anti-theist you don't have that luxury. But I personally take unusual position that faith does not exist separately from reason, instead it is itself a derivative of reason, and therefore reason is the only support you should have for belief in God. Also, and I'm not calling you out or anything, but not all Christians are underdogs or the minority--in fact today very few are, so I find it frustrating when Christians use language that indicates it's the "small group of truth-loving believers against the mass of evil in the world." Otherwise I find what you say pretty convincing.
     
  2. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    Can I join here? I'm a Christian too because I Believe that Jesus is THE only way to heaven! Anyhow, I'm new here and this is a new ground for me, and I need a fellow brother or sister to take care of me in here...
     
  3. Steelrush

    Steelrush Banned


    A few times, on yahoo and youtube. I mainly bring up that they're no better than groups like the KKK for that level of discrimination and point out that this contradicts what they claim to believe in (i.e. tolerance and all people are equal, stuff like that), and they either discontinue, or become increasingly more incoherent and resort to name calling. But lately I haven't seen any of that and just ignore them. Because I know the true reason behind why they do this and no matter what you say to them, their anti-theist agenda will not cease until they have their purely communist, religion-free world where everyone submits to the government and there's no higher power than them.

    Edit;

    Here: http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/tv.htm

    That's an article on how TV effects the youth, however it's not just the behavior they emulate. They gain opinions from the media, and form their agendas in religion and politics based on it. That is one of the few reasons why the anti-theists gained motivation to make their religion-free communist world, and it's the reason for their adversity towards anyone that believes differently from them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
    Cometstarlight likes this.
  4. crobatman

    crobatman Well-Known Member

    Nice, I like your response! "Faith is a derivative of reason" Faith and Reason can go together for us. We can guide non-saved people to the truth by demonstrating our faith. We can show the scriptures and back them with reasonable arguments. I believe it is best to lead people to Christ by being relational with others. A working faith, will be one that is better than just the talking about faith.
    However, on things like debate forums, my experience has been that people are not really seeking the truth, but trying to shut out our arguments. I even was active in them, but mostly to view their perspectives and think of different ways to do apologetics. It was a benefit more to me, than to others there. This discussion we are having seems to be one that benefits us both though! :)

    Not sure where the underdog thing came from. Christianity is a huge thing in history and around the world. One reason people do not want to accept Christ's teachings is because throughout history there have been bad examples of "Christians" whether they truly have Jesus in them or not. This is because we are sinners and do make mistakes. I think that is why it is important to strive for humility and admit your wrongs. A lot of Atheists will hate our "holier than thou" sayings. That is why we should not be prideful.
     
  5. Matoro

    Matoro Toa of Ice

    My issue is where you say that faith and reason can go together. They cannot. Faith is reason, in a way--i.e., you have faith because it is reasonable to do so. The fact that the people in the places you have been arguing are not considering your arguments seriously is their problem, they are not really exercising reason but I find that the easiest way to counter this is to break your point down into statements that are irrefutable, i.e.--"Things move." "Well, yes." "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed." "yes." "In order for something to move, it must have energy imparted to it from something else--Newton's Third Law." "Yes." "The fact that you are moving right now means something imparted energy to you." "Yes." "And that object must have had something impart energy to it." "Yes." "There cannot be an infinite series of this--correct?" "Uh, yes." "Which means there must be an anchor?" "Yes." "And that anchor must have moves something without itself being moved?" "Yes." "Thereby defying the laws of physics?" "Yes." "The definition of something that defies the laws of physics yet still exists is a supernatural being."

    Speaking of which, we should have some sort of devil's advocate debate on here, just to teach people how to defend the faith. I'm in a faith and reason class right now and it'd help me work out some of the things in there.

    Steelrush--I am overwhelmed. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian household and this is exactly the same thing I heard day in and day out. You don't really believe the stuff you're saying, do you? Honestly, that's ridiculous. Yes, there are communists. Yes, there are highly liberal people. No, they are not sending radio signals to your child's head. No, you don't need to stockpile weapons (except for the zombie apocalypse). No, the fluoride the government is putting in your water does not take over your brain, it cleans your teeth. Get a grip. There are approximately twelve people (throwing out numbers here) who honestly want to destroy Christianity and stuff like that. There are quite a few who will listen to arguments, but the vast majority just haven't had the true gospel taught to them. The only problem is when people like you go around accusing them of being communist Satan-worshippers, that builds a wall right there and everyone else has an even harder time showing them the love of Christ. You should have a talk with crobatman.
     
  6. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    I would really agree with that. It is because Faith is the reason why Christians are Christians in the first place...
    Anyhow, to shift things a bit, about anti-theists in general, I really think the problem of their thinking may vary, but boils down to three things: Pride, Experience, and Unwillingness to Repent.
    Pride is basically that hardest wall to break... in fact, it can only be broken by the person itself. Anti-theists belongs to the extreme of humanistic philosophy (That Man is the Center, in the anti-theist's case, there is no God aside from man), and no matter what you do, there is no influence to change that, unless it's the person who admits that it is wrong. This is also way to prevalent in our world today. In fact, some Christians (myself included) has some problems dealing with pride, because self-esteem is too highly embedded in our culture today.
    Experience is perhaps the easiest wall to break. This comes to the observation from other people, the poor, other Christians acting like they are not, and several other things that would make them conclude that there is no God. All it take would be a divine intervention from God, or someone who really stands in the faith, acts the talk and lives the Word, that would turn them around to God (and thus, the reason why Jesus commands us to follow His teachings. It is not for our benefit but for evangelistic purposes, although a changed life would benefit you in a way in the long run)
    Unwillingness to repent, although similar to pride, is at a slightly lower level than the foremost mention. Despite the fact it can be broken by showing someone a Christian life, it can also lead up to a hard, stubborn wall which the sole purpose is that they thought the Bible is all about do's and don'ts. Usually, this kinds are very receptive to the loving gospel, but would shudder at any thought of obedience (although it would be overcome by teaching them that obedience is the result of love, e.g. why you obey your parents aside from their authority, or your best friend). Aside from that, this ones are usually acting like those who have pride, but frequently contradicts themselves in one way or another (unlike those who have pride that really have a solid basis of believing that there is no God, and will try their best not to contradict themselves).
    Although this are just some sorts of stereotypes, this just helps me in sharing the gospel in their life by living out the testimony of being a Christian and telling to them the gospel. In our world where love becomes feelings and benefits instead of trust and a venue of being selfless, poverty is hard to cure, all the result of a world where sin inhabits, that gives birth to suffering and death, the world needs to see the Love God gave to us, by learning to love them while not falling to sin (yeah, it's a very hard balance).
    Can I start a discussion though?
    Do you think that Creationism vs. Evolution could happen in the Pokemon World?
    Although I highly doubt that will happen in any way, it could be an interesting thing to think of. Evolution in Pokemon is more akin to metamorphosis, the kinds theory in Young Earth Creationism is present (e.g. egg groups), and the presence of the story of Noah would alternately explain the formation of fossils using the combination of theories proposed by Young Earth Creationists!
    (BTW, I'm a young earth creationist and I don't want any debate about that. I just thought that it is possible for theories like this to happen in a way, even if the series is highly secular).
     
  7. crobatman

    crobatman Well-Known Member

    That sounds good to me. I love the part where you say that people do not listen because they have not been taught. That is so true! Remember the account of Paul to Mars Hill? He was in the area where people even had an altar to the "unknown god." Paul had to start with Genesis to explain who this true God is! They had to learn before the call to accept Christ.
    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? ~ Romans 10:14
    When we use apologetics to explain our faith to people, it should be as a pre-evangelism tool. It will help educate them of our perspective, so that they can understand why we want to lead them to Christ. I think your explanation of Faith and Reason is what I was trying to say, but you defined it in a better way. I just feel arguing to make yourself sound smarter than the other person causes anger and strife. However, just being lovey-dovey with folks ain't gonna work either. A better way is when people are open to your teachings. However, I am sure there have been times that an atheist has converted to Christianity just by reading arguments on a wild and crazy forum discussion. Jesus used reason to explain a right faith during His earthly ministry also. We should study some of his accounts with the Pharisees, and even the disciples. He is the best example to follow! :) However, he did more than just talk the talk. He demonstrated the right way, by being right! We should do our best to live right too.
    Another issue I have with debate forums or any other debate on the internet is the lack of relationship with the individuals. An example I think of is that it can be like talking to people during Xbox live matches on Halo.... Ridiculous sometimes. It is possible to lead people to Christ online, but it so much more effective to discuss things in person. However, we must realize that this is another human being that we are talking too. Another person that Christ shed His blood for.

    Skybattler, thanks for adding good stuff here to the discussion! I can tell people all about Christ and use the most reasonable points to teach them of what His sacrifice means, but they will have to open their hearts to him. Jesus is literally right in their presence, but they still refuse him. All we can do though is to "plant the seed." Jesus will do the rest of the work in their hearts. That is how God's grace works. Even the most hard-headed of people can come to Him.

    Do you think that Creationism vs. Evolution could happen in the Pokemon World?
    That would really be funny, but they kind of have "theistic evolution" there. Arceus creates, and pokemon then "evolve," but they really are like growing up. They kind of believe in long ages in the series with their fossil pokemon who lived millions of years ago! I do not think it would be as much of a debate in their fictional world though. Arceus could show up and just poof things into existence! Also, people can communicate better with pokemon than we can with animals.


    Matoro, I have done a fun devil's advocate debate before. I went to Liberty University as a biology major. I even took two courses in creation studies. One debate I was a part of was Dinosaurs evolved into Birds. I had to take the pro-evolution side. It was very interesting and educational! I learned a lot about cladistics and taxonomy.
     
  8. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    Well, they do propose the long age theory... like in the real world! How I wish we could cominicate to aniumals anyway (and I wish that since I'm a vet student!)
     
  9. Matoro

    Matoro Toa of Ice

    Skybattler--this is the Christian Alliance, so you don't have to worry about getting attacked for your beliefs, but I would like to discuss the young earth Creationism. I personally do have a problem with it, and although I am not a scientist so I can't give an expert opinion, I do think it sheds a negative light on Christians as a whole, painting us as a backward people who won't accept even the most basic of time-tested scientific premises. What evidence do you use in determining your opinion towards a young earth? If you say it is because the addition of the maximum possible lifespans of the given descendancies (I spelled that wrong) in the Bible could not amount to the scientific age of the earth, it is based off extremely shaky ground, because large portions of the Bible are both known to be and are accepted to be purely figurative--i.e. those lineages could not necessarily be accurate, nor must they necessarily include every human being who lived. Again, where do you factor in the fossils of ancient creatures such as dinosaurs? They have been very solidly dated to millions of years ago. Do you think humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs? The oldest human fossil has been dated quite accurately, and scientists are even almost certain that Stegosaurus lived farther away in time from Tyrannosaurus Rex than T-rex did from humans. I feel there is rock-hard evidence of an old earth and an old universe, and although I'm not one to bring up numbers, I would like a little explanation for why you believe that.
     
  10. crobatman

    crobatman Well-Known Member

    I am not skybattler, but I may be able to give a reply. I am a "young-earther" too. I guess that term is relative, because several thousand years is older than me! Its the fact that the Bible says God created the world in 6 days that gives me acceptance of the young earth view. Like I said earlier, the Bible trumps any man-made ideas on the issue. Therefore, I believe dinosaurs were created on the same day as man. It is really strange because when I was younger, I believed in the millions of years. Now, I see that the belief on the age of the earth is based on our prior assumptions. I can not test the age of the earth, or repeat it, so I will believe the only accurate account.
    For me, it is the acceptance of Biblical authority. Exodus 20:11 states, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." There is no room for millions of years in between those days.

    Back when Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Old Testament, the age of the earth was not really an issue. The real issue is if God is the authority in your life or not.
     
  11. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    Adding to that, there are scientific theories being worked on based on data gathered by young earth creationist scientists (most which can be found at www.answersingenesis.org) Anyhow, the dating methods are pretty much a way off and even the most accurate, C-14 dating, would proclaim an inaccuracy beyond 14,000 years (which, BTW, would lessen given the fact the pre-flood conditions are diffrent from post-flood conditions). Please note that they DO admit that they have certain biases because scientific facts are different from scientific theories, since scientific facts are the data you collect, theories are on how you explain the data.
    Just as I promised, I'm not going to indulge in debating because there's no whole point on debating if the scripture says that we should never let a brother to stumble, unless you allowed me to and get permission from our brothers and sisters in this forum to do so. However, if you wish, I won't flinched and try to defend as much as I could :). I'm just worried if I would be the stumbling block of another person's faith
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  12. ArceusAlpha493

    ArceusAlpha493 Benevolent Creator

    Hey guys and girls, why don't we go to a more lighthearted topic. Since Pokémon X and Y is coming out, lets continue our subject of what pokemon would best fit the people in the Bible as if pokemon were created and coexisted with humans. Lets continue where I left off.
     
  13. crobatman

    crobatman Well-Known Member

    How about a newer topic in stead?
    One funny thing about growing up in church is that I learned about POKEMON there! Lol! Back when Red and Blue came out, all my friends had the game and the cards. I was happy when some friends gave me some trading cards, and then I got Yellow Version that Christmas, so I could play with my friends too. Since growing up, I have seen other kids playing pokemon, and they sometimes ask me questions about the game. I give them tips like not using 4 fire attacks for a Charizard. Pokemon need coverage to defend themselves better. Another tip I have helped them with is to use Stat boosting moves to make their pokemon better in a battle.

    Do you have any Pokemon "disciples" that you help out? Thought this would be a funny topic to discuss. What were some of your rookie mistakes with pokemon? Did you ever play your game or take cards to church as a child?

    I used to take my Gameboy Color and play it before and after church. My friends and I would discuss the trading card game, video games, and anime a lot. Back in the late 90's it was a popular thing. Nostalgia is what keeps me playing the game.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  14. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    What pokemon would best fit the people in the Bible as if pokemon were created and coexisted with humans?
    Ok, from what I know, I think this would to the trick...
    Noah, the first person who "got 'em all before it was mainstream", would be more akin/ roaming around with an Absol during his days. Him bringing an Absol along means serious business. This is also in the case of Jeremiah.
    Sarah would be frequently seen with a Musharna, because it looks like a baby, and she longs one, until Isaac came.
    So far, I can't think of any. All I know is that Numel/Camerupt are pretty common along with Mareeps if that happens.
     
  15. crobatman

    crobatman Well-Known Member

    ^ I like the Absol idea. Noah brings his Absol to people to tell them of the coming doom!!!!
     
  16. Steampunk

    Steampunk One Truth Prevails

    Confagrigus + Pharaoh
    Jonah + Wailord
    Satan + Zoroark
    God + Arceus

    I could name more XD
     
  17. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    Spritzee would be with Esther... that would make her attractive enough to King Xerxes.
    Jacob would definitely own a Misdreavus/ Mismagius, or the Inkay line... it literally fits his account to be a trickster!
    Gogoats would definetly be present, BTW...
    Anyone who would suggest to the 12 disciples of Jesus? I can't think of any!
    Do you have any Pokemon "disciples" that you help out?
    Um, I think, I'm on the one being, somewhat, discipled (a bit).
    I have to admit, although I'm a part of the evangelical curve, I got hooked to the traditionalist (make that severe traditionalists, who are against nearly everything in the modern world) notions that made me think that faith+works=salvation, until I met my small group leader who helped me overcome it by getting me to my other interest (including Pokemon).
    I'm not the kind who knows how to socialized (due to my past), but it's on the works of being improved!
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  18. crobatman

    crobatman Well-Known Member

    That's cool, but I meant like have you ever taught better ways to play the game to "rookies" of the game. Helped them not be a noob...
     
  19. skybattler262

    skybattler262 Well-Known Member

    Occasionally, yes.. I have a childhood friend back then... however, he was way to stubborn and never accepted my advice... and he got defeated by a gym leader...
    Most likely, I only show my interest in Pokemon once someone pops out of nowhere playing one
     
    Matoro likes this.
  20. NimhShambler

    NimhShambler Fighting Type Prof.

    The new tagline for the pop music thread offends me greatly. Please tell me I'm not the only one.

    Also, sorry I've been gone a while, am I still welcome here?
     
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