Starter Discussion & Thread

[Erron Black]

Wouldn't it be safe to assume that Rowlet's final evolution would have a far higher chance of being grass/flying than grass/steel or grass/ground?

It's safe to assume yes, but going by the whole 'Prehistoric influence' that grass starters have, I'm going to stick with my theory that it will go the Ornimegalonyx route.(Which is highly likely) BUT becoming Grass/Steel type. It can still go the Ornimegalonyx route and be Grass/Flying, but it wouldn't make as much sense due to the Ornimegalonyx being nearly flightless.(Although Archeops/Archen prove otherwise.)

 

[Nunn]

It's safe to assume yes, but going by the whole 'Prehistoric influence' that grass starters have, I'm going to stick with my theory that it will go the Ornimegalonyx route.(Which is highly likely) BUT becoming Grass/Steel type. It can still go the Ornimegalonyx route and be Grass/Flying, but it wouldn't make as much sense due to the Ornimegalonyx being nearly flightless.(Although Archeops/Archen prove otherwise.)

That's where we disagree I suppose. You're saying the Ornimegalonyx/prehistoric route is highly likely, I disagree.

The Bulbasaur like many other pokemon in the generation looked dinosaur-esque (Charmander line, Lapras, Kangaskhan ect.) But I don't believe they were ever intended to actually be based off of pre-dinosaur reptilians.

I believe it's the same with the Chikorita line, the dinosaur/monster style is just popular.

Sceptile is a large lizard, not a dinosaur.

Torterra is a giant tortoise with snapping turtle influences, while turtles/tortoises have been around a while, they are also popular animals to be used for inspiration. Look at the Squirtle line, even Shuckle has turtle influences.

Serperior is the same as Torterra in the sense of, while snakes have also been around for quite some time. It's just a popular animal to base designs off of like the Arbok line, Dunsparce somewhat, Seviper and Rayquaza.

The Chespin line is where I feel like the prehistoric theory really falls apart. The line is inspired by hedgehogs and chestnuts mostly. Chesnaught's name is even a combinatio of chesnut and juggernaut. The shell on it's back does not resemble that of the glyptodon which was a relative of the armadillo. Chesnaught does not resemble this, nor does it resemble armadillos. The shell on it's back is inspired by a chestnut shell.

 

[Squirtortoise]

GF made it Grass/Flying simply because they were going with a flying bird concept for it and so they chose the typing accordingly. If you're asking why GF would make it part flying only to get rid of it later, it's only fair to ask why Larvitar and Pupitar weren't given the part dark typing to begin with/ given pure rock or ground typing, or why Nincada wasn't just pure Bug to begin with? I mentioned this in my last post, but this logic is flawed because it follows that pre-evolutions need to be extensions of their evolved forms, when it's the other way around. Hate to get real world up in here, but when you think of real life evolution, no one says "we must have had all the physical features we have now, millions of years ago". Adaptations took place to get us to what we are today. I didn't come up with this, but it's perfectly phrased: Evolution doesn't have a sense of future. I know someone is going to say that, unlike the real life version of evolution, Pokemon has people who are thinking of the evolutions as they create these Pokemon, which is fair. But again, they're called evolutions for a reason, and it goes forward, not backward.

It's just a creative decision to have Rowlet be Grass/Flying instead of Grass, or Pupitar Rock/Ground instead of just Rock, etc... it's not much more than that guys. So both sides, the keeping of its typing versus the changing of its typing, make sense.

 

[goodpeople25]

Could you explain your mairill argument? Cause It's not making sense to me given it's different gen changes (It was water then next gen it got a pre evo which was normal, and then later fairy got added to both) Also as said lavitar and pupitar were Not meant to be dark type the design dosen't fit, but the reason it replaced a type is that the design didn't fit the current critera of pure rock, it fit rock/ground with the ground being like a flying types normal typing. However rowlet could easily have been pure grass since it's well an owlet so it didn't have to fly. It's still possible of course but it just dosen't make much sense to me.

 

[Erron Black]

That's where we disagree I suppose. You're saying the Ornimegalonyx/prehistoric route is highly likely, I disagree.

The Bulbasaur like many other pokemon in the generation looked dinosaur-esque (Charmander line, Lapras, Kangaskhan ect.) But I don't believe they were ever intended to actually be based off of pre-dinosaur reptilians.

I believe it's the same with the Chikorita line, the dinosaur/monster style is just popular.

Sceptile is a large lizard, not a dinosaur.

Torterra is a giant tortoise with snapping turtle influences, while turtles/tortoises have been around a while, they are also popular animals to be used for inspiration. Look at the Squirtle line, even Shuckle has turtle influences.

Serperior is the same as Torterra in the sense of, while snakes have also been around for quite some time. It's just a popular animal to base designs off of like the Arbok line, Dunsparce somewhat, Seviper and Rayquaza.

The Chespin line is where I feel like the prehistoric theory really falls apart. The line is inspired by hedgehogs and chestnuts mostly. Chesnaught's name is even a combinatio of chesnut and juggernaut. The shell on it's back does not resemble that of the glyptodon which was a relative of the armadillo. Chesnaught does not resemble this, nor does it resemble armadillos. The shell on it's back is inspired by a chestnut shell.

I guess so.

Venusaur is obviously well... a dinosaur.

Meganium is obviously a Sauropod.

The Sceptile line takes some inspiration from raptors and dilophosaurs though, such as the arm leaves, which velociraptors have arm feathers similar to that and the head shape resembles that of a dilophosaur.

Torterra's design has some inspiration from prehistoric tortoises(Carbonemys for example.) They are absurdly large and have massive shells, which you can see Torterra has a massive shell as it houses a mini-ecosystem on it's shell.

Serperior can be related to the Titanoboa in a sense, as it is a very large snake-like Pokemon, like the Titanoboa is a very large prehistoric snake. This one is a little flimsy in said theory, but still viable.

Chesnaught does take some inspiration from Glyptodonts. The shell being a chestnut shell doesn't really disprove the theory at all, it's a very tough shell that covers Chesnaught's back similar to that of a Glyptodont.

I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on when you get to the core of it. It's neither disproved nor proven, that's the beauty of theories I guess. x)

Could you explain your mairill argument? Cause It's not making sense to me given it's different gen changes (It was water then next gen it got a pre evo which was normal, and then later fairy got added to both) Also as said lavitar and pupitar were Not meant to be dark type the design dosen't fit, but the reason it replaced a type is that the design didn't fit the current critera of pure rock, it fit rock/ground with the ground being like a flying types normal typing. However rowlet could easily have been pure grass since it's well an owlet so it didn't have to fly. It's still possible of course but it just dosen't make much sense to me.

I may have went the wrong direction with my Marill example. Why not give Azurill water typing rather than normal typing when it's just going to get rid of the normal type?

Larvitar and Pupitar definitely fit the criteria for a Dark Type. They're intimidating looking, not to mention in the anime Larvitar acts very self-centered and arrogant. They only went for Rock/Ground typing because of how they act ingame and it made sense from a design point of view.

Rowlet has been shown to fly though, just because it isn't flying when idle in battle doesn't mean it can't fly at all.

 

[Squirtortoise]

Thing is random pokemon lines have had drastic changes in the past to their typing. But starters have always been straight forward. They normally start out as mono-types, and develop from there. Bulbasuar started out as a dual type and kept it's typing throughout the line.

It's not impossible for them to change it, but it seems unlikely.

There is also 0% evidence pointing towards Rowlet having anything to do with the steel typing. Again, it could happen. But it seems quite unlikely.

Basically this. Signs point to it being very unlikely, but it's honestly not completely unfounded.

 

[Gohankuten]

Adding on another reason that would point to Rowlet going down the Ornimegalonyx is that Ornimegalonyx has long strong legs and Rowlet is describe as liking to hit with strong kicks so it heading down an evolutionary path that ends with it having long strong legs for more powerful kicks makes sense. And adding on that it also likes to use its razor sharp leaf feathers as throwing knives it also makes sense for it to evolve to strengthen those as well which best way to do that would be metal to increase both hardness and sharpness so hence the steel type. Granted of course this is still flimsy and it is more likely to just keep it's flying type but the switch to steel type at least has some plausibility if it does go the type switch route.

And the grass starter theme has always been prehistoric creatures of some sort like how fire starters have the zodiac creatures(though granted Gen 2 and Gen 6 both strain that theory what with Typhlosion barely being able to be guessed as a rat and Delphox being a fox which is not actually a dog). Water starters I can't really place any ongoing theme with them lol.

 

[Erron Black]

Adding on another reason that would point to Rowlet going down the Ornimegalonyx is that Ornimegalonyx has long strong legs and Rowlet is describe as liking to hit with strong kicks so it heading down an evolutionary path that ends with it having long strong legs for more powerful kicks makes sense. And adding on that it also likes to use its razor sharp leaf feathers as throwing knives it also makes sense for it to evolve to strengthen those as well which best way to do that would be metal to increase both hardness and sharpness so hence the steel type. Granted of course this is still flimsy and it is more likely to just keep it's flying type but the switch to steel type at least has some plausibility if it does go the type switch route.

^^^

Basically the theory for Grass/Steel typing summed up. Nice job Gohankuten.

 

[goodpeople25]

The Sceptile line takes some inspiration from raptors and dilophosaurs though, such as the arm leaves, which velociraptors have arm feathers similar to that and the head shape resembles that of a dilophosaur

Actually i believe that would be the Velociraptor feather theory, or based on a ancestor or related species of the Velociraptor. (If you suscribe to the grass starter theroy of course) Remember that science like pokemon (and alot of other things) marches on. Just like how rock/ground was basically Rock in the first 1 or 2 gens, from what i read is that they didn't confirm velociraptor feathers till 2007 which was gen 4

 

[Nunn]

I guess so.

Venusaur is obviously well... a dinosaur.

Meganium is obviously a Sauropod.

The Sceptile line takes some inspiration from raptors and dilophosaurs though, such as the arm leaves, which velociraptors have arm feathers similar to that and the head shape resembles that of a dilophosaur.

Torterra's design has some inspiration from prehistoric tortoises(Carbonemys for example.) They are absurdly large and have massive shells, which you can see Torterra has a massive shell as it houses a mini-ecosystem on it's shell.

Serperior can be related to the Titanoboa in a sense, as it is a very large snake-like Pokemon, like the Titanoboa is a very large prehistoric snake. This one is a little flimsy in said theory, but still viable.

Chesnaught does take some inspiration from Glyptodonts. The shell being a chestnut shell doesn't really disprove the theory at all, it's a very tough shell that covers Chesnaught's back similar to that of a Glyptodont.

I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you're on when you get to the core of it. It's neither disproved nor proven, that's the beauty of theories I guess. x)

True, but I don't believe theories constitute as evidence.

Like I wrote before, With Venasaur and Meganium. While they do resemble dinosaurs. i think it's more about how that's just the popular dino/monster look for a lot of pokemon that are not necessarily meant to be dinosaurs. They are just meant to be larger monsters. We have fossil pokemon for a reason.

Sceptile could be seen to have some therapod influences, but again it's probably more about having it look like a cool monster. A quadrupedal lizard pokemon may not look as impressive.

With Torterra and Serperior, because they are fully evolved they happen to be large. Not necessarily based off of larger snakes or tortoises/turtles.

I suppose Chesnaughts body'does somewhat resemble an armadillo with the armored body, head and ringed shell. But again, it's large because it's fully evolved. It could just have a big of armadillo inspiration. Not necessarily Glyptodon inspiration.

It does depend on how you look at things, but in the end. I don't think this theory is evidence enough to say that grass/steel or grass/ground is more likely than grass/flying for the Rowlet line. Anyone can believe what they want, but in the end. The grass/flying combo is still more likely with actual evidence backing it up instead of theory.

 

[Squirtortoise]

Erron Black, while I've felt your theory is fair and have partly defended it in my posts, you said that you find it likely for a type change to happen while admitting there is no evidence for it, all in the same post... It should at least be agreed upon that it is much more likely the typing remains than it is for it to change, simply because the base form IS Grass/Flying already and like you said, there is no evidence of a type change. You are basing it solely off of a design concept theory for its final form. Your theory is interesting and possible, and I do like it, but it isn't probable.

 

[Aromatic Mist]

Why would they change Marill's typing to Water/Fairy when Normal/Fairy makes just as much sense? Why would They just not give Larvitar and Pupitar Rock/Dark when it makes just as much sense?

Did you pay attention to my post one bit? Evidently not.

I said Azurill is non-aquatic, as many infants of water bound species start their lives on land. Larvitar and Pupitar aren't kaiju, they're very stereotypical 'rock monsters'. On the other hand, why would Rowlet change? My whole point is that those specific designs make sense, whereas Rowlet's evidently doesn't.

Those Pokemon change typing because of their design. I SAID Rowlet could change into a Grass/Steel type IF it went down the Ornimegalonyx path, which is a hefty, NEARLY flightless, prehistoric owl.

Well I SAID what's the point of making Owlet a flying bird if they were going down that path? Pokemon evolve and tend to gain attributes, not lose them?

Right now I feel like a broken record because you guys just don't seem to be able to grasp the point I'm getting at. Be open-minded for once people.

It's a discussion thread, ffs, people aren't just going to accept the possibility of your theory blindly, there's going to debate.

Also a fish to an octopus is soooooo much different from a flying owl to a flightless owl. That's a terrible example.

I was pointing out how Remoraid & Octillery, despite the radical change, lost pretty much nothing, which flying owl -> flightless owl evidently does.


Also Rowlet's kicks don't mean much, Talonflame is also said to posses strong kicks.

 

[Gohankuten]

True, but I don't believe theories constitute as evidence.
It does depend on how you look at things, but in the end. I don't think this theory is evidence enough to say that grass/steel or grass/ground is more likely than grass/flying for the Rowlet line. Anyone can believe what they want, but in the end. The grass/flying combo is still more likely with actual evidence backing it up instead of theory.

What is the actual evidence that backs up it staying grass/flying? We have no idea yet how it is going to go with it's evolution and can only speculate so it is also still just a theory that it will stay grass/flying. Sure the theory is the more logical choice but it doesn't have any solid evidence to back it up either.

 

[Aromatic Mist]

What is the actual evidence that backs up it staying grass/flying? We have no idea yet how it is going to go with it's evolution and can only speculate so it is also still just a theory that it will stay grass/flying. Sure the theory is the more logical choice but it doesn't have any solid evidence to back it up either.

It's a bird. That flies. Most Pokemon that are dual-typed keep their dual-type upon evolving. As did the first dual-type starter.

It's not a definite, but it's a lot more likely than 'maybe it'll be a flightless owl!'

 

[Nunn]

What is the actual evidence that backs up it staying grass/flying? We have no idea yet how it is going to go with it's evolution and can only speculate so it is also still just a theory that it will stay grass/flying. Sure the theory is the more logical choice but it doesn't have any solid evidence to back it up either.

You're right, I suppose it isn't really solid evidence. But just seeing as like 90% of pokemon that evolve retain their initial typing. I think it's more likely based on how gamefreak has been known to do things for Rowlet to retain it's grass/flying typing instead of changing it's secondary typing.

 

[Gohankuten]

Well I am still hoping the theory of it changing to flightless/nearly flightless grass/steel owl happens. And if we get water/fairy and fire/dark then it would fit in even more cause each of those types only have 1 other evolution line that has that type combo and each line only has 2 in em and if Rowlet becomes grass/steel then it fits since grass/steel also only has a single line of 2 pokemon that has that typing. Plus it gives another quasi triangle to the starters(I know dark is neutral to steel but since fire would be 4x it's kinda covered)

 

[Aromatic Mist]

Whilst I don't think it will happen, I do admit it's an interesting theory.

But I'm hoping that GF will try to go 'wild, bestial' owl rather than Noctowl's 'calm, civilized' owl.

 

[Nunn]

But I'm hoping that GF will try to go 'wild, bestial' owl rather than Noctowl's 'calm, civilized' owl.

But he's such a dapper gent! :O

 

[goodpeople25]

Funnily enough i think the Mid level being more obviously grass-flying would actually help your case. At lesst then Rowlet has a reason to be grass flying (seriously it's an owlet it didn't have to fly) but on the flip side recent mid evolutions are mostly quite good (only servine comes to mind for me after gen 2) at showing what is in store for the next evolution, type (this one a bit less) stat and appearance wise.

 

[Creyk]

Well I am still hoping the theory of it changing to flightless/nearly flightless grass/steel owl happens. And if we get water/fairy and fire/dark then it would fit in even more cause each of those types only have 1 other evolution line that has that type combo and each line only has 2 in em and if Rowlet becomes grass/steel then it fits since grass/steel also only has a single line of 2 pokemon that has that typing. Plus it gives another quasi triangle to the starters(I know dark is neutral to steel but since fire would be 4x it's kinda covered)

That would be so cool, Grass/Steel is a great type

I saw some fakemon fanarts about Rowlet's final evolution, and one made it have 4 legs, like a griph monster but still owl-like in the head. It looked super cool.