Starter Discussion & Thread

[Aromatic Mist]

But the difference is the designs still are basically what people thought. Turtwig turns into a bigger turtle and then a bigger turtle with some added minor things. Chimchar goes from monkey to bigger monkey to bigger monkey with some slight color changes each time. All the evolutions looked natural until gen 5 where tepig to pignite and dwwott to samurott happened.

I'll give you Dewott to Samurott, which was unexpected and IIRC did happen due to artists block, but Tepig to Pignite isn't that drastic. I mean not even that much more drastic than Torchic to Combusken, where Torchic suddenly develops humanoid traits when its prevo looks like a snowman with chicken legs shape wise.

And tbh I don't think anyone should be talking about how organic the transitions are this Gen are without even seeing the middle forms first, and thus bringing up past Gen transitions isn't really terribly useful.

But I do feel like that if any of the starters do look a bit unbalanced development wise, it will be Litten. Rowlet to Rowlet3 is already very organic even without a transition stage and would work well enough as a two stage, whereas Popplio suddenly gaining humanoid features can be a reference to the transformation of selkies, as well as establishing the colour change between first and last form by having Popplio's snout and spaces between its 'fingers' be white. I loved that about the Oshawott line: how they had a part of their body covered in the fur colour of its next evolution.

 

[Relax]

Let's hope we get the middle evo's on the 6th! Maybe the ''drastic'' change between 1st and 3th evolution will be more understandable.

 

[yuoke]

Let's hope we get the middle evo's on the 6th! Maybe the ''drastic'' change between 1st and 3th evolution will be more understandable.

I already know they wont be understanable for litten, he is going to stand on two legs and get some muscles. We'll see for rowlet and popplio.

Torchic to combusken looked way more natural than tepig to pignite still. I would give you that combusken to blaziken was less then pignite to emboar though, but it was too late with going bipedal and becoming a wrestler.

 

[Relax]

I already know they wont be understanable for litten, he is going to stand on two legs and get some muscles. We'll see for rowlet and popplio.

Torchic to combusken looked way more natural than tepig to pignite still. I would give you that combusken to blaziken was less then pignite to emboar though, but it was too late with going bipedal and becoming a wrestler.

Yes litten3 looks way different then litten1. I am really curious how they are gonna explain that. I expected more of a panther look for litten.
I think rowlet2 will be understandable because rowlet3 looks good. Popplio 1 and popplio3 will be more interesting, although I expect a more larger seal with maybe some fairy looks?

 

[Dragon Pulse]

I wanna know why people have a problem with Popplio3 being feminine but they don't have a problem with Litten3 being quite masculine. Society always views femininity being degrading, which it is not.

 

[clbgolden12]

I wanna know why people have a problem with Popplio3 being feminine but they don't have a problem with Litten3 being quite masculine. Society always views femininity being degrading, which it is not.

Because Popplio is more than likely gonna have a 87.5% chance of being male (which has been said at least 20 times here).

 

[Relax]

I wanna know why people have a problem with Popplio3 being feminine but they don't have a problem with Litten3 being quite masculine. Society always views femininity being degrading, which it is not.

If you are talking towards me, I said if popplio1 is a male then popplio3 would be weird but if pupplio1 is a female then popplio3 would be beautifull! Same goes for litten3, litten3 is good for a male litten, but for a female litten it would not fit. We don't have a problem with feminine we have have a problem if a MALE popplio1 has those features because it does not fit the gender imo. Altough popplio3 looks great!

 

[Inconspicuosaurus]

Because Popplio is more than likely is gonna have a 87.5% chance of being male (which has been said at least 20 times here).

Do I need to say this again?

The starters are gendered that way purely for rarity purposes. It makes them more challenging to breed. That. Is. It. Technically, if you pick out one of the almost 7 billion people in the world, they are more likely to be female than male. Does that mean the basic human body shape should be more female? No.

If you are talking towards me, I said if popplio1 is a male then popplio3 would be weird but if pupplio1 is a female then popplio3 would be beautifull! Same goes for litten3, litten3 is good for a male litten, but for a female litten it would not fit. We don't have a problem with feminine we have have a problem if a MALE popplio1 has those features because it does not fit the gender imo. Altough popplio3 looks great!

You can say that you don't like more masculine designs for girls and more feminine designs for boys if you want, but you can't say they're flat out weird or don't fit their gender as if that is a problem with their designs or something that should be fixed. Especially when "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics mean nothing for a non-human animal, and even if they did, humans are not restricted to masculine men and feminine women. There are plenty of female wrestlers or weightlifters, and there are plenty of male synchronised swimmers and opera singers. Just because you have an outdated and biased view of what males and females should look like, doesn't mean Pokemon should follow that.

 

[Relax]

Do I need to say this again?



You can say that you don't like more masculine designs for girls and more feminine designs for boys if you want, but you can't say they're flat out weird or don't fit their gender as if that is a problem with their designs or something that should be fixed. Especially when "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics mean nothing for a non-human animal, and even if they did, humans are not restricted to masculine men and feminine women. There are plenty of female wrestlers or weightlifters, and there are plenty of male synchronised swimmers and opera singers. Just because you have an outdated and biased view of what males and females should look like, doesn't mean Pokemon should follow that.

I did not say I don't like more masculine designs for girls and more feminine designs for boys? I said I don't think popplio3 fits for a MALE popplio1 same goes for litten 3 for a FEMALE litten1. Some pokémon already show some minor differences between male and female forms why can't the starters have those?
but I like to see minor differences between male and a female pokémon. It makes the more unique. I also think it is funny you say'' I have an outdated and biased view of what males and females should look like'' just because I gave my opinion about something that doesn't fit your mind.
I don't insult you either so don't insult me.

 

[yuoke]

I wanna know why people have a problem with Popplio3 being feminine but they don't have a problem with Litten3 being quite masculine. Society always views femininity being degrading, which it is not.

I actually like all the starter evos that are pretty much very neutral looking actually.

Uh I have a huge problem with litten's. I wanted it to become a sleek looking quadropedal tiger or panther and not a muscle man.

 

[Requiem Aeternam]

Uh I have a huge problem with litten's. I wanted it to become a sleek looking quadropedal tiger or panther and not a muscle man.

I was hoping for something similar with Litten3. I wanted to have something completely different from the previous starter evos but the leaked design isn't what I was hoping for. I like the design but it's my least fave of the 3 because it just feels like Litten with elements of Blaziken, Infernape and Emboar mixed in. I just hope it isn't a Fighting type. I will despise it if it is.

 

[clbgolden12]

Do I need to say this again?



You can say that you don't like more masculine designs for girls and more feminine designs for boys if you want, but you can't say they're flat out weird or don't fit their gender as if that is a problem with their designs or something that should be fixed. Especially when "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics mean nothing for a non-human animal, and even if they did, humans are not restricted to masculine men and feminine women. There are plenty of female wrestlers or weightlifters, and there are plenty of male synchronised swimmers and opera singers. Just because you have an outdated and biased view of what males and females should look like, doesn't mean Pokemon should follow that.

Yeah, I forgot, all make male synchronized swimmers and opera singers have long flowing hair with a hairband and dress like female only creatures...

I can understand if you're ok with things with this, but I'm just not, and it's certainly no reason to claim I have "outdated" views (you're slightly right about the biased thing, but what would you expect for my view to be based off?).

 

[Luthor]

I personally have no problem with a feminine starter. After all it all worked out fine for Chikorita. Truth be told though I never understood why they gave such a gender inbalance for starters. I'd be ok if they changed things up for once and had 50/50 gender.

 

[Aromatic Mist]

Oh my god this is ridiculous.

Animals don't need to care about human gender norms. Heck, I'd argue they don't even have genders, at least in a human sense, as they don't assign themselves a gender based off their mental state because they're not complex enough to think like that: and thus, only have a sex. Some animals are quite feminine by human standards (for example, toy dogs, flamingos, swans) but come in both sexes or even appear more feminine in their male variation (peafowls), and vice versa (there's female bulldogs, buffalo, Gorillas, etc, and female fish of several kinds are larger and stronger than the males, the same with some insects and arachnids). So why is the female looking seal a problem!? I understand it if you just don't like feminine designs, that's fine, but if you hate it because its gender ratio stop being five years old and buck up, because I'm pretty sure the actual target audience won't even care.

And to be honest, the other side (saying this evo is some sort of triumph for defeating gender norms, etc) are just as bad, for the same things I just said. Seals aren't deep enough to be 'gender nonconformist' or 'transgender' (and I honestly think its quite offensive to both trans people and feminine men to assume feminine = female).

 

[yuoke]

Oh my god this is ridiculous.

Animals don't need to care about human gender norms. Heck, I'd argue they don't even have genders, at least in a human sense, as they don't assign themselves a gender based off their mental state because they're not complex enough to think like that: and thus, only have a sex. Some animals are quite feminine by human standards (for example, toy dogs, flamingos, swans) but come in both sexes or even appear more feminine in their male variation (peafowls), and vice versa (there's female bulldogs, buffalo, Gorillas, etc, and female fish of several kinds are larger and stronger than the males, the same with some insects and arachnids). So why is the female looking seal a problem!? I understand it if you just don't like feminine designs, that's fine, but if you hate it because its gender ratio stop being five years old and buck up, because I'm pretty sure the actual target audience won't even care.

And to be honest, the other side (saying this evo is some sort of triumph for defeating gender norms, etc) are just as bad, for the same things I just said. Seals aren't deep enough to be 'gender nonconformist' or 'transgender' (and I honestly think its quite offensive to both trans people and feminine men to assume feminine = female).

I pretty much agree with what you are basically saying, but I still would really prefer gender rations to be 50/50 to be neutral.

If it were up to me I would want every starter evo to be basically neutral in design, and then with 50% ratio and that would make it way more likely for almost everyone to like every starter for sure. Im not a fan of both overly feminine or overly masculine.

 

[Dragon Pulse]

If you are talking towards me, I said if popplio1 is a male then popplio3 would be weird but if pupplio1 is a female then popplio3 would be beautifull! Same goes for litten3, litten3 is good for a male litten, but for a female litten it would not fit. We don't have a problem with feminine we have have a problem if a MALE popplio1 has those features because it does not fit the gender imo. Altough popplio3 looks great!

I was talking towards mainly anyone who has an issue with their masculinity or femininity. I agree, I love Popplio3! I am seriously considering switching from Rowlet to Popplio because I don't really like Rowlet3 that much.

 

[Akashin]

Oh my god this is ridiculous.

This about sums it up. It doesn't help that, as R_N pointed out some time ago and went largely ignored, the 7:1 gender ratio of Pokemon is almost exclusively for rarity purposes. 3:1 and 1:3 are where Pokemon actually intended to lean one way or the other wind up.

 

[clbgolden12]

Oh my god this is ridiculous.

Animals don't need to care about human gender norms. Heck, I'd argue they don't even have genders, at least in a human sense, as they don't assign themselves a gender based off their mental state because they're not complex enough to think like that: and thus, only have a sex. Some animals are quite feminine by human standards (for example, toy dogs, flamingos, swans) but come in both sexes or even appear more feminine in their male variation (peafowls), and vice versa (there's female bulldogs, buffalo, Gorillas, etc, and female fish of several kinds are larger and stronger than the males, the same with some insects and arachnids). So why is the female looking seal a problem!? I understand it if you just don't like feminine designs, that's fine, but if you hate it because its gender ratio stop being five years old and buck up, because I'm pretty sure the actual target audience won't even care.

And to be honest, the other side (saying this evo is some sort of triumph for defeating gender norms, etc) are just as bad, for the same things I just said. Seals aren't deep enough to be 'gender nonconformist' or 'transgender' (and I honestly think its quite offensive to both trans people and feminine men to assume feminine = female).

But these aren't animals.

They're Pokémon.

 

[Inconspicuosaurus]

I did not say I don't like more masculine designs for girls and more feminine designs for boys? I said I don't think popplio3 fits for a MALE popplio1 same goes for litten 3 for a FEMALE litten1. Some pokémon already show some minor differences between male and female forms why can't the starters have those?
but I like to see minor differences between male and a female pokémon. It makes the more unique. I also think it is funny you say'' I have an outdated and biased view of what males and females should look like'' just because I gave my opinion about something that doesn't fit your mind.
I don't insult you either so don't insult me.

I literally cannot comprehend how you don't see your first two sentences directly contradict each other. Unless somehow it's not the femininity of Popplio3 that makes it inappropriate for a male Popplio in your mind? And I can't think what else it could possibly be when that's the whole subject of this debate

And I meant "you" in a general sense, as in "someone". It's directed at all the people that can't hack a more feminine looking male Pokemon or a more masculine looking female Pokemon.

Yeah, I forgot, all make male synchronized swimmers and opera singers have long flowing hair with a hairband and dress like female only creatures...

I can understand if you're ok with things with this, but I'm just not, and it's certainly no reason to claim I have "outdated" views (you're slightly right about the biased thing, but what would you expect for my view to be based off?).

They don't, but it's fine if they do. That's the whole point.

If you think males have to look masculine and females have to look feminine, then yes your views are outdated, because that's not how the world works. I would expect any rational person to see that.

But these aren't animals.

They're Pokémon.

Replace "animals" with Pokemon and you have exactly the same point. It's clearly implied that animals a relevant because that is primarily what Pokemon are based on. I'm getting the impression that you're just being deliberately obtuse now.

 

[clbgolden12]

They don't, but it's fine if they do. That's the whole point.

If you think males have to look masculine and females have to look feminine, then yes your views are outdated, because that's not how the world works. I would expect any rational person to see that.


Replace "animals" with Pokemon and you have exactly the same point. It's clearly implied that animals a relevant because that is primarily what Pokemon are based on. I'm getting the impression that you're just being deliberately obtuse now.

I'm not saying that males have to look super masculine (or vice-versa), but that still doesn't omit the fact that Popplio3 does look very girl, even having a slight basis on creatures that our know for being only females (sirens, to be specific).

And I'm sorry if you're somehow finding me "obtuse" right now, because that honestly is not my intent.