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Starter Discussion & Thread

What is you favorite Sun & Moon starter?

  • Rowlet

    Votes: 467 43.2%
  • Litten

    Votes: 343 31.8%
  • Popplio

    Votes: 270 25.0%

  • Total voters
    1,080
Status
Not open for further replies.

SlowPokeBroKing

Future Gym Leader
I'm not lumping you in but you just were saying that people that don't like popplio's are just insecure regarding their masculinity. All of these bigoted and pointless arguments could end if some people could learn to accept that not everyone will have the same opinion as them.
Sexism is not opinion-based. If you bothered to understand what I said (and maybe what "bigoted" actually means), you might get it.
 

Thepowaofhax

Well-Known Member
Sexism is not opinion-based. If you bothered to understand what I said (and maybe what "bigoted" actually means), you might get it.
Definition of Bigoted said:
: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)
Source.
Because, you know, calling everyone who disagrees with you on Pop3's design is totally not bigoted.
 

JohnDoe

Mmmm...Yes
**** it. You guys aren't gonna learn tonight so this isn't going anywhere. Read a book or two.
Yeah I more or less agree. This whole argument/debate is a waste of space. For the love of Arceus, people, please stop talking about this subject. It's not going to amount to anything really.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
All I can sum up from this entire argument is that people don't like Popplio's final because it looks girly even though it's mostly male. Their inner masclinity is what's mostly bothering them because they don't think it's right or it's uncomfortable (even though we've had pokemon like that for generations), and they can keep that feeling if they want, but IMO they shouldn't let it bother them so much that there has to be a 500 page argument about it.
 
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yuoke

Treasure huntin'
**** it. You guys aren't gonna learn tonight so this isn't going anywhere. Read a book or two.
There's nothing to learn, other than that you need to learn what sexism means and how to handle opinions maturely. You should read a few books.

All I can sum up from this entire argument is that people don't like Popplio's final because it looks girly even though it's mostly male. Their inner masclinity is what's mostly bothering them because they don't think it's right, and they can keep that feeling if they want, but IMO they shouldn't let it bother them so much that there has to be a 500 page argument about it.
But I also don't like litten's for being over masculine....how is that explained? Aliens? The only reason there is an argument is that people are being called sexist for no real reason at all.
 

JohnDoe

Mmmm...Yes
How about we stop asking these stupid questions?

How about instead we talk about dream movesets/likely HA's or whether or not we think the leaks are credible and why. I'd rather talk about those subjects and not some stupid gender observation on fictional creatures.
 

Thepowaofhax

Well-Known Member
All I can sum up from this entire argument is that people don't like Popplio's final because it looks girly even though it's mostly male. Their inner masclinity is what's mostly bothering them because they don't think it's right or it's uncomfortable (even though we've had pokemon like that for generations), and they can keep that feeling if they want, but IMO they shouldn't let it bother them so much that there has to be a 500 page argument about it.
That isn't the reason though, they just don't think it makes sense, whether it be culturally or other reasons. Most of the current argument was due to someone claiming that anyone who dissented from their opinion by the slightest, in regards to Pop3's design, is sexist.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
But I also don't like litten's for being over masculine....how is that explained? Aliens? The only reason there is an argument is that people are being called sexist for no real reason at all.
Fine, you don't like a super masculine pokemon. Even though we've had the Machamp line that van be female, your not obligated to fully like a pokemon because how it looks in a gender perspective. How pokemon are designed is all up to personal tastes. If you're not really sexist, just let the argument die so we can move on.
 

Bus

Well-Known Member
I feel like this argument has been going on forever now. Hopefully tomorrow's reveal shows something about the starters or something. We need something to distract from this topic. How about another rumor? I feel like we havent seen any good ones in awhile. Has the rumor mill run dry or are there just not any good ones worth speculating on?
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
I feel like this argument has been going on forever now. Hopefully tomorrow's reveal shows something about the starters or something. We need something to distract from this topic. How about another rumor? I feel like we havent seen any good ones in awhile. Has the rumor mill run dry or are there just not any good ones worth speculating on?
So far none I'm afraid. We could potentially see leaks of Tuesday's trailer's tomorrow though.
 

yuoke

Treasure huntin'
Fine, you don't like a super masculine pokemon. Even though we've had the Machamp line that van be female, your not obligated to fully like a pokemon because how it looks in a gender perspective. How pokemon are designed is all up to personal tastes. If you're not really sexist, just let the argument die so we can move on.
I don't like machamp either, because I just don't like the design of a muscle man. It was only ever an argument in the first place with people calling out other people about their opinions. I won't tolerate being called sexist though. I mean 3 of my top 5 favorite game characters ever are girls, but I don't like popplio so sexist. That's all I have to say on it then.
 

Bus

Well-Known Member
So far none I'm afraid. We could potentially see leaks of Tuesday's trailer's tomorrow though.
What about the rumor about the inclusion of S.S. Anne and it being where you battle all the 'champions' from regions past? Was that already discussed? It seemed pretty interesting; especially since it noted Lance as having an Alolan Dragonite.
 

Thepowaofhax

Well-Known Member
What about the rumor about the inclusion of S.S. Anne and it being where you battle all the 'champions' from regions past? Was that already discussed? It seemed pretty interesting; especially since it noted Lance as having an Alolan Dragonite.
Did the rumor say anything of particular interest about the Alolan starters?
 

yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
So basically, if you have an artistic preference towards more masculine things, you are obviously a sexist? You do realize how idiotic this is? I guess my artistic preference to post-apocalyptic landscapes and rather dark looking paintings must mean I exude all kinds of anti-social, nihilist and plain psychopathic behaviors, because, you know, a man liking things that are more masculine must mean they are sexist. I also guess liking more feminine qualities must obviously mean you're objectifying women and thus are still sexist (because this is quite common in small groups of people I have seen; the doublethink is ridiculous). But you know, it seems like you would be the type to say that considering that all you're doing is ignoring the argument that post was a part of as an excuse to call anyone in the "out-group" sexist.

Also, you are ignoring the context of the post you had quoted, as it had distinctly quoted someone who was arguing about that ratio, and thus strawmanning the argument by stating that the post was talking solely about a preference.

Again, while yes, it is OK for a male Pokemon to look feminine by our standards, you are also ignoring past arguments from others saying that Pop3 should be more based on the masculine traits of Pinnipeds, which is applying the behaviors of male seals/sea lions/walruses on a Pokemon with a high rate of being male. Is that sexist? Are biological facts regarding a pre-sentient species magically sexist now? You are completely ignoring the argument that post is a part of so you can cop out to call anyone with opinions dissenting from your own sexist, which, for one, is a basis for Fascist thought (in-group vs out-group mentality).
This is about my view of some of the discussion going on here.

It's fine if people want to not care about feminine/masculine qualities on genders not normally associated with them, and think it odd and pointless to care about human concepts of femininty and masculinity in regards to fictional species,

and it's also fine if people don't really care for their male pokemon to be in female drag or their female pokemon to have ginormous humanoid muscles on a very humanoid form and shorts with a questionable belt and no shirt, or to prefer more elegant and "cute" designs seen as more feminine over those that are more monstrous and "buff"looking that are seen as more masculine, or vice versa.

People have different preferences. I hate liften for a variety of reasons, including dissapointment about what could have been and the fact that I really don't like the buff-man with spandex shorts and flame-shooting belt with a cursory tiger head design. That doesn't make me sexist. I didn't like poppliolovely at first either, not least because of the overtly human-feminine features, and it's still not my favorite though I've come to be okay with it.

I also think the people who say that, if you're not totally supportive of things such certain procedures that change your outward appearance in certain ways to fall more along the norm for one gender or the other (among other things), you're a horrible and bigoted person (sure, there are those who are just plain hateful and discriminatory who hold these views, but not everyone who does is), are actually more narrowminded than those who take a moral objection for one reason for another but are fine with others having their own views and even friends those with radically different ideas on these subjects, and recognize these things as complex issues for which there are many views that could be argued with points of various degrees of validity on both sides. We're all entitled to our own religious and ethical beliefs, as long as we're not harming anyone else, and to trash those who hold some of these views that some of you are calling "outdated" is to devalue a very large percentage of those who are living or who have ever lived.

Personally, I think it's a bit inane to deny that liften and poppliolovely have feminine/masculine attributes. They pretty clearly take some attributes (like eyeshadow on poppliovely) from common cultural indicators of femininity and masculinity, which, while you can argue shouldn't in an ideal society be taken as such, do actually exist. Also, since pokemon as a concept are created by people, the idea that human standards aren't related to them because they're not human is nonsense, and as some pokemon are clearly stated in their dex entries as being as or more intelligent than the average person, it's quite possible that they might have cultural concepts like masculinity and femininity themselves, although these concepts could differ quite a lot from human ones. Aside from cultural characterizations of masculinity and femininity, which do play a substantial role in forming societal concepts of gender identity, it is also not true that males and females are the same. We have this problem in modern society where we think that to be "equal" or "equitable" that means we must deny any differences. People can be different while still being equal. As much as I might not like it, on average (of course there are deviations from the average, as in any real-life samples of anything), females who work out a physically equal amount to males are not quite as strong, and current research suggests there are also some (usually small, but significant) differences in some mental functions in men and women, some where women do better and some where men do better. Considering we have differences in average levels of hormones--among other genetic differences--which affect many biological processes, that some average differences do exist should not be surprising. However, this does not mean that one gender is superior or more valuable than others, or that it's wrong for a man to like sewing and show emotions (it's healthy to allow people to cry sometimes) or a woman to like video games like Skyrim (like me). Same thing with people with various "disabilities". I have a form of autism, and so my brain works somewhat differently than the majority of the population. While this can cause some problems in a societal structures are set up primarily for "neurotypicals", it does not mean I am innately inferior. It's more a case of different ability than disability, and a lot of the "disabliing" aspects come about when people ignore that there are differences and expect me to fit the same mold as everyone else. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiUx_GlXEAQYIFg.jpg I do...not so well at things that most people can do relatively easily, but I also can do some things a lot better than the average person. Because we have these differences, though, whether from masculinity or feminity, typical ability or different ability, we can complement each other and accomplish things as a species that we could not if we all came exactly the same.

Sorry for the wall of text here, but can we just all agree to disagree and respect each other and each other's opinions and move on?

If I recall, I'm pretty sure Delphox's feminine qualities were also complained about quite a bit as well (not so much for Serperior as it does look kind of gender neutral).
I don't have anything against Delphox because I see it as "feminine", I have something against it because it's completely hideous... I also don't particularly care for overtly humanoid starters, but it could at have at least gone the elegant enchantress fox-in-kimono-pretending-to-be-human instead of the more haggish one... I like a variety of pokemon along the cute to the monstrous/cool spectrum, but some designs I just can't see why they thought it was a good idea... but other people are free to love them if they want.
 

Bus

Well-Known Member
Did the rumor say anything of particular interest about the Alolan starters?
Nah and I see what youre implying; discussion of it kinda belongs elsewhere lol. Though a bit below that article in a separate section there was a rumor regarding megas for the Johto starters. It had been posted awhile back, however, so its probably been disproved by now.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
What about the rumor about the inclusion of S.S. Anne and it being where you battle all the 'champions' from regions past? Was that already discussed? It seemed pretty interesting; especially since it noted Lance as having an Alolan Dragonite.
The only "leak" I know of that mentioned the S.S. Anne and Champion rematches on board it was the Rainbow Greninja "leak", which was already debunked.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
For the love of God is this still going?

Listen, in my case I never gave a cucumber about the gender ratio of starters, that one is just a tool to create a fake sense of rarity and force players into bonding with their first mon, same with some one time only mons, it's the ****ing devs fault for never correcting the gender ratio as more Pokémon became available in the wild.

Second, I said it once so I'll say it twice.

A Selkie is fine, even if it goes full Leanan Sidhe.

If the inspiration goes for this myth there is really nothing wrong with it, there is a base for it to work, we can like or dislike it, at best is just like Vaniluxe, a living 2headed Icicle that works as an early pure ice mon. I love that concept and I think the fact that they mixed it with a double scoop ice cream is pure genius, but many just see it as plain ice cream or just another "put a derpy face on an object and call it a pokemon" thing that people who like furry critters or dragons and birds in adventure games plainly dislike for challenging their concept of disbelief.

Liking a design is subjective, some will never click just because we don't see them as part of what we like to call the "franchise", but calling people that don't like what you like idiots is plainly stupid. Pulling the sexism card on it only makes you look worse.

My problem with Selkie Popplio is simple, while a cool concept for implementing a myth I feel it doesn't make justice to the real life creatures with that body structure.

Tell me what comes to your mind when people mention pinipede? Probably nothing, but once people mention sea lions they think the non fat seals that gallop, and honestly that's partially correct, heck fur seals are sea lions by body structure and genes, yet they are called seals due to the terminology used by the populi.

Now fat seals, we are talking true seals, what comes to your mind, most likely big fat puppy faced seals. But when you remember species, you never ****ing remember the female! Why? Because the variations they posses are for the most part minimal, evolution took an intense turn here, it wasn't a shared trait of the species that gave them their appearance outside of sea mammals with a different body structure of sea lions that adapted to life on the sea, it was the desirable traits of the male aka "the bull" the ones that created this traits on the GENDERS, yes I used this word, GENDER means the role they take and here we have BULLS and females.

Males got bigger bodies, testosterone spikes, unique adaptations that ensure a healthy male reproduces with the best amount of females and in turn they have bigger chances of passing the best traits that contribute from the selection from both parents!

So yes, we know MALE Leopard seals for their terie song, we know the FEMALE for its curiosity, we know the elephant seal for his big BULL, his Roars, his mating ritual, his harem, his role as a beach lord his huge regenerative abilities and resistance to diseases out of that brutal testosterone spike, and we know that males learn to fight so even if they are against a bigger bull the one that fight better gets to win, their FEMALES only got a slightly bigger nose and the 5th amount of milk fat among the seals.

It's safe to say one can be pissed off about a design failing to put the best known traits of a family, a Selkie is fine, a badass seal or sea lion would have been amazing.

Heck sea lions are so Testorone Poisoned they just charge and gang upon each other until several die out of their injures and the survivors get to mate and then kill other male cubs just to increase their chances in the following years, take note only 60% of the males survive their first mating season, not counting predators, that's hardcore gene selection down here and it happens to the males.

You know, showing this side of sea lions would have also been amazing.

But we have a Selkie, I'm not going to bash it. It has the right to exist and it is cool, but it isn't a freaking loud hooded seal, a merciless sea lion, a mystical apex predator like the leopard seal, nor a complete badass fighter like the elephant seal.

In my opinion, it feels like a wasted opportunity design wise.
 
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knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
The only "leak" I know of that mentioned the S.S. Anne and Champion rematches on board it was the Rainbow Greninja "leak", which was already debunked.
Actually the S.S. Anne and Champion cameos showed up in the Bewear leaks first.

And you were hoping for too much realism in a game about supernatural creatures my friend.
 
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