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Starter Discussion & Thread

What is you favorite Sun & Moon starter?

  • Rowlet

    Votes: 467 43.2%
  • Litten

    Votes: 343 31.8%
  • Popplio

    Votes: 270 25.0%

  • Total voters
    1,080
Status
Not open for further replies.

yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
I'd be interested in seeing a reset of the poll once final evos are confirmed...

It'd be interesting to see how popularity changes / has changed. Poppliolovely's ended up being the focus of a lot of debate, but I think more people actually dislike liften, and it's just not been discussed as much because it's more unanimous and/or it got more on the "another bipedal fighting or fighting-ish fire starter" front than the more provocative sexism debate.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
yep. There's just been too many... Makes me honestly wonder if GF is unaware of the tiredness of this kind of fire starter and the hate that yet another one would generate... surely they must have some idea?



Litten might've been my favorite if it stayed quadruped... ;_; Why, GF, Why?!!! It would have needed some quality work to make it not blend in a bit much with things like houndoom, but it could have been pretty awesome. Rowlet also caught my eye from the begining (and I continue to like its leaked evo), but mainly because of the novelty of a grass/flying type rather than innate super-attraction to the design (although I liked the design fairly well, I suppose).

To be honest, Masuda did say he wanted the starters to be relatable as possible.

Plus I give 4 of the gens fire starters a pass since they mostly are based off of bipedal creatures, stretch for Typhlosion because badgers can actually stand on their hind legs. It was until Emboar where it seemed unatural. Plus I doubt a quadraped starter would make people like more much less think it's boring. Cause we've had many quadraped cat pokemon in the past, and people rarely ever use them. Some people intially didn't like Litten BECAUSE it looked like a boring cat. And even if it's evo was quadraped, after seeing the reaction of that fake panther evo of it, people will think it's bland because it's a big cat now on fire, and to be honest I can see the lack of creativity in something like that. So really I'm not sure either spectrum is better off.
 

yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
To be honest, Masuda did say he wanted the starters to be relatable as possible.

Plus I give 4 of the gens fire starters a pass since they mostly are based off of bipedal creatures, stretch for Typhlosion because badgers can actually stand on their hind legs. It was until Emboar where it seemed unatural. Plus I doubt a quadraped starter would make people like more much less think it's boring. Cause we've had many quadraped cat pokemon in the past, and people rarely ever use them. Some people intially didn't like Litten BECAUSE it looked like a boring cat. And even if it's evo was quadraped, after seeing the reaction of that fake panther evo of it, people will think it's bland because it's a big cat now on fire, and to be honest I can see the lack of creativity in something like that. So really I'm not sure either spectrum is better off.

if we're thinking of the same fake panther evo, I actually liked that one. It was nice and sleek, although I'm sure they could have gone another quad direction with it and have it be more complicated and still cool. Or something unorthodox like a half-ghost where the front half is a cat and the back half disintigrates into a ghostly lightning-like fire-ghost wisp, it's eyes are glowing flames, and it's signature move shoots out flaming hairballs. :)

Anything but another bipedal fighter... (BTW, I don't really consider typhlosion part of that category. Even if it's shown like that in it's sprites and such, it looks more like a natural quadroped that just happens, like you said, to be standing upright in the images we get.)

EDIT: and I don't think making them non-humanoid necessarily makes them less relatable. Besides them having often having definite personalities in the anime, people can always relate to having a cat...
 
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knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
if we're thinking of the fake panther evo, I actually liked that one. It was nice and sleek, although I'm sure they could have gone another quad direction with it and have it be more complicated and still cool. Or something unorthodox like a half-ghost where the front half is a cat and the back half disintigrates into a ghostly lightning-like fire-ghost wisp, it's eyes are glowing flames, and it's signature move shoots out flaming hairballs. :)

Anything but another bipedal fighter... (BTW, I don't really consider typhlosion part of that category. Even if it's shown like that in it's sprites and such, it looks more like a natural quadroped that just happens, like you said, to be standing upright in the images we get.)

EDIT: and I don't think making them non-humanoid necessarily makes them less relatable. Besides them having often having definite personalities in the anime, people can always relate to having a cat...

I don't think they mean THAT kind of relatable like pets or what not. I think he meant as friends, like the human friends we have now. Think of digimon and how those humanoid creatures are close the their human partners, well because they're just as human like as them.
 

yuoke

Treasure huntin'
The humanoid stuff honestly makes them less relatable. The litten evolution looks like something from a cartoon, whereas something like that fanart one or something more natural would feel closer to being based on a real tiger/panther/etc.
 

Captain America X

Well-Known Member
The humanoid stuff honestly makes them less relatable. The litten evolution looks like something from a cartoon, whereas something like that fanart one or something more natural would feel closer to being based on a real tiger/panther/etc.

I think he meant relatable because of their humanoid nature and not relatable because they look like something in real life
 

yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
I think he meant relatable because of their humanoid nature and not relatable because they look like something in real life

well, can't we do that with personality and not with form? PLZ
 

Captain America X

Well-Known Member
well, can't we do that with personality and not with form? PLZ
It's a lot more easier to make humanoid creatures more relatable in games than it is to give non-humanoid pokemon personalities that can be considered relatable.Not only that,it's easier to make and show hotheaded dirty wrestler personality than a calm cool cat.
I honestly dont think that is a good idea if that is the case. I find it really hard to relate to a steroid thundercat.
At that point it's pretty much preference.There will be people who relate more to certain creatures than others.Creating a creature with a personality and design that appeals to everyone is pretty much impossible.
 
I honestly dont think that is a good idea if that is the case. I find it really hard to relate to a steroid thundercat.
I think in some ways, sure. The starters this time resemble something that we see in our average day, or maybe from a poll they did behind backs on favorite animals.
Secondly, a "Steroid Thundercat" can be relatable to older players like myself, maybe reminiscent of the older Thundercats cartoon or something.
 

yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
I honestly dont think that is a good idea if that is the case. I find it really hard to relate to a steroid thundercat.

yeah...

It's a lot more easier to make humanoid creatures more relatable in games than it is to give non-humanoid pokemon personalities that can be considered relatable.

idk. I mean, I can't imagine liften will be talking any more than other pokemon do, so I don't really see that there's a huge difference. Really, as far as I'm aware the only non-legendary pokemon character that talks is meowth, and he's not humanoid and yet shows quite a few human characteristics in his personality. And personally, I don't always relate well to other people, so I don't know that making liften humanoid would really help me relate to him if the pokemon world were real. more likely to just make me nervous. I think I'd get along better with pokemon like the gengar evolutionary line trio from the original kanto anime. Misunderstood by most people but really just want to be friends and have fun together...
 

Captain America X

Well-Known Member
idk. I mean, I can't imagine liften will be talking any more than other pokemon do, so I don't really see that there's a huge difference. Really, as far as I'm aware the only non-legendary pokemon character that talks is meowth, and he's not humanoid and yet shows quite a few human characteristics in his personality. And personally, I don't always relate well to other people, so I don't know that making liften humanoid would really help me relate to him if the pokemon world were real. more likely to just make me nervous. I think I'd get along better with pokemon like the gengar evolutionary line trio from the original kanto anime. Misunderstood by most people but really just want to be friends and have fun together...
I'm talking about the games not the anime.
Were not talking about the anime though.It's not like the Pokemon are made for the anime but for the games.You got to seperate the anime and game depictions of the creatures.Game version of Gengar based of their entries are not misunderstood pokemon who wants to have fun with everyone.Game version of Meowth is nothing like it's anime depiction.


.The games have no dialogue to show personality so they can only rely on action and design.It's harder to make and show off the personality of a calm,collected quadropod animal more relatable actions than a hotheaded dirty fighting bipedal wrestler.
 
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marumaruko

Ghost Trainer
It's definitely about preference of a creature, because I don't think any of these starter Pokemon were ever very relatable. Look at Greninja pre-Anime, or Pokemon like Swampert, Emboar or Venusaur. That said, i remember how in Sapphire, I dumped my starter in the box right after the start, because I liked none of them and made Lotad my "closest" in-game friend. Dancing with Ludicolo always seemed more relatable to me than what any of the starters do. haha
 

PsychoIncarnate

Well-Known Member
I only dumped my starter gen 5. Before Gen 5 came out I thought Serperior looked really cool. But using him in game was extremely frustrating so I just dumped him and had a better experience.

This generation I may do the same. The final evolution I think looks the best is Rowletts, but there is already a grass pokemon I want to use based on one of my favorite animals.
 

kingtarzan

New Member
I never dump my starter, but if the leaked evolutions are true then I probably will this time.
 

yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
I'm talking about the games not the anime.
Were not talking about the anime though.It's not like the Pokemon are made for the anime but for the games.You got to seperate the anime and game depictions of the creatures.Game version of Gengar based of their entries are not misunderstood pokemon who wants to have fun with everyone.Game version of Meowth is nothing like it's anime depiction.


.The games have no dialogue to show personality so they can only rely on action and design.It's harder to make and show off the personality of a calm,collected quadropod animal more relatable actions than a hotheaded dirty fighting bipedal wrestler.

well, in my opinion the games and anime are basically two artistic mediums to depict the same world. Yeah, there are discrepancies, but that's the case with books and movies and such too. As for the pokedex entries, well, there we get into things like the average vs. individual pokemon of a species and "narrator" bias and unreliability issues, to borrow some literary concepts. Like really, I'm pretty sure if half of the dex entries were true, everyone would be long dead and the even the world (as in globe, their "earth) probably would have long since failed to keep its shape, what with things like tyranitar's entry knocking down mountains and muk and grimer preventing anywhere they touch from ever hosting life again. Seriously, I'm pretty sure, assuming they somehow survived long enough to have a civilization, humans would be putting out extermination orders against a lot of these things, not carrying them all over the place to wreak more havoc.

But anyways, if you're talking of showing off "personality" strictly in game, then, well, I don't think any pokemon really gets any treatmentment to personality except maybe a few rare instances of other trainers' pokemon in cut-scenes like when that one gym leader in XY has her lucario decide it wants to be with you, and really I don't think having it be bipedal or whatever really affects its relatability in things like that because the actions would be the same.

I don't really think you can truly separate the anime and games at this point when it comes to things like pokemon personalities, though, because I'm pretty sure each medium affects the development of the other. I'm sure that when GF is coming up with concept designs for starters, there is some thought that goes into how they can capitalize on potential designs in the anime.
 

Captain America X

Well-Known Member
well, in my opinion the games and anime are basically two artistic mediums to depict the same world. Yeah, there are discrepancies, but that's the case with books and movies and such too. As for the pokedex entries, well, there we get into things like the average vs. individual pokemon of a species and "narrator" bias and unreliability issues, to borrow some literary concepts. Like really, I'm pretty sure if half of the dex entries were true, everyone would be long dead and the even the world (as in globe, their "earth) probably would have long since failed to keep its shape, what with things like tyranitar's entry knocking down mountains and muk and grimer preventing anywhere they touch from ever hosting life again. Seriously, I'm pretty sure, assuming they somehow survived long enough to have a civilization, humans would be putting out extermination orders against a lot of these things, not carrying them all over the place to wreak more havoc.

But anyways, if you're talking of showing off "personality" strictly in game, then, well, I don't think any pokemon really gets any treatmentment to personality except maybe a few rare instances of other trainers' pokemon in cut-scenes like when that one gym leader in XY has her lucario decide it wants to be with you, and really I don't think having it be bipedal or whatever really affects its relatability in things like that because the actions would be the same.

I don't really think you can truly separate the anime and games at this point when it comes to things like pokemon personalities, though, because I'm pretty sure each medium affects the development of the other. I'm sure that when GF is coming up with concept designs for starters, there is some thought that goes into how they can capitalize on potential designs in the anime.
The anime is just a marketing tool for the games.The games come first,they are not equals.The games are more important than the anime.The anime is just there to promote only.

Also just like book and movies,the books come first since they are the important ones not the movies .You have to keep them seperate.

Your only thinking of how the anime version of these pokemon act,I'm pretty sure Masuda on the other hand was talking about how they wanted the pokemon in game to have more personality.I don't see why he would care much about the anime in the first place.



A lot of pokemon have personality.Their design and how they move and what they do during battle showcases their personality.Your talking purely about story,I'm talking about how a pokemon acts when you see them battle in game.
 
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yuoke

Treasure huntin'
Regardless of the inspirations, I think there should have been at least one of the three full evolved ones that stayed animalistic if the other two were going to be very humanoid so for the people that don't like humanoid style pokemon that much they have one. For me I just don't like the majority of humanoid style pokemon and always swayed way more to the more animalistic ones.
 
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yumenokage

faerie dragon ghost
The anime is just a marketing tool for the games.The games come first,they are not equals.The games are more important than the anime.The anime is just there to promote only.

Also just like book and movies,the books come first since they are the important ones not the movies .You have to keep them seperate.

perhaps books and movies was a bad example (although, you're wrong in that books come first. Sometimes it's the other way around.) I was trying to make the point of different mediums of expression, meaning, that what you can express in one format in a book can be impossible to express in a movie or play, and vice versa. Some formats are better suited to expressing certain things than others, and while I do agree that in general "the book is better than the movie", in some cases it can legitimately be argued that the chronologically secondary format actually expresses the original intent or emotion better than the original format because the medium is better suited for it.

But you can also have two versions of something that come about at the same time and influence each other, such as in folklore. Folklore on one particular tale or topic can develop simultaneously across a wide area, with each region's/village's/etc version being slightly to quite different, and adjacent areas influencing the telling of the local tales. No one version is "right" or "superior", even though they have contradictions and descrepancies. In a way, they are all "right", a sort of "multiverse" with countless renditions of the same "world", with each rendition being cannon in its own way, similar in a way to the "visual novels" of Japan where depending on a few choices the story that enfolds can be drastically different, and each version is cannon.

Related to these veins of thought, while in the case of Pokemon the first set of games may have predated the anime, and the creation of the anime might have been conceived with the idea of promoting the games, by now the anime has developed so it is not just an marketing appendage to the games and is just as much a facet of the pokemon universe as the games, if not an even larger one in some ways. For those who've never watched the anime or played the games, where do you think their basic knowledge of the pokemon universe mainly comes from? Probably the anime. Pikachu is much more recognizable than the original 3 starters or any other pokemon, and that is because of the anime. As for being a marketing appendage for the games, I'm guessing the anime sells more non-main-game merchandise than game copies, and probably a lot more of it than the games do, specifically because pokemon are able to be given much more character in many ways in the anime.

Anyways, there are many people who watch the anime who never play the games, and vice versa. Neither is innately better than the other, and each has its own strengths. You are free to not care about the anime, but invalidating the opinion of anyone who takes the anime into account when discussing the pokemon universe and new additions to it is a bit much. And it's silly to think that the pokemon anime doesn't affect anything about the games. Think about the whole planned GS ball event that was aborted in the games other than one isolated Japanese event that never went worldwide because they changed their minds and decided to go a different direction in the anime. And more than that, think of the gagillions of pikachu clones that have shown up in every generation of the games. If not for Pikachu becoming the mascot through the anime, that probably would not have happened. Not to mention Pokemon Yellow, which was an entire main-series game basically based off the anime. Then there's the inflation of event pokemon, whose increasing numbers since generation 1 probably have something to do with providing a means to sell more movies, seeing as a lot of them don't really play a role in the games either directly or by setting up major region lore. Do you really think there's not someone involved in the creation of new generations whose job it is to coordinate things in development of the games for the benefit of the anime? At this point, the anime is not functioning merely as promotion of the games, but actively shaping them, just as pocket monsers red and green shaped the development of the original anime.

A lot of pokemon have personality.Their design and how they move and what they do during battle showcases their personality.Your talking purely about story,I'm talking about how a pokemon acts when you see them battle in game.

For how they move, you mean... how their sprites sit there and a generic animation plays separate from them? Because that's what happens in most pokemon games, and while in generation six they have implemented a couple custom move animations and some basic "at rest" movements for pokemon, the case at large is still not much changed. I'd love to sometime see a game where pokemon behavior and movement is created via complex formulas and is individualized based on species and other factors, but we're just not even close to that sort of thing. As for what moves they get and use in battle, well, you choose which moves they use in battle, so I wouldn't say that's a personality showcase of the pokemon, and as for the moves they get, that's determined mostly by the physical capabilities of their species, rather than their personalities. I suppose you could make a case for things like leer, growl, and play rough, but considering the widespread distribution of many of these, it's still rather a stretch.

As for their designs showcasing their personality, well, can you judge the personality of an animal or even a human based on it's appearance? Even in the game, you could have a bunch of liftens, which by their design all look aggressive and whatnot, but according the the game canon of "natures", some of them are timid, some are quiet, and some are bashful...
 

Captain America X

Well-Known Member
perhaps books and movies was a bad example (although, you're wrong in that books come first. Sometimes it's the other way around.) I was trying to make the point of different mediums of expression, meaning, that what you can express in one format in a book can be impossible to express in a movie or play, and vice versa. Some formats are better suited to expressing certain things than others, and while I do agree that in general "the book is better than the movie", in some cases it can legitimately be argued that the chronologically secondary format actually expresses the original intent or emotion better than the original format because the medium is better suited for it.

But you can also have two versions of something that come about at the same time and influence each other, such as in folklore. Folklore on one particular tale or topic can develop simultaneously across a wide area, with each region's/village's/etc version being slightly to quite different, and adjacent areas influencing the telling of the local tales. No one version is "right" or "superior", even though they have contradictions and descrepancies. In a way, they are all "right", a sort of "multiverse" with countless renditions of the same "world", with each rendition being cannon in its own way, similar in a way to the "visual novels" of Japan where depending on a few choices the story that enfolds can be drastically different, and each version is cannon.

Related to these veins of thought, while in the case of Pokemon the first set of games may have predated the anime, and the creation of the anime might have been conceived with the idea of promoting the games, by now the anime has developed so it is not just an marketing appendage to the games and is just as much a facet of the pokemon universe as the games, if not an even larger one in some ways. For those who've never watched the anime or played the games, where do you think their basic knowledge of the pokemon universe mainly comes from? Probably the anime. Pikachu is much more recognizable than the original 3 starters or any other pokemon, and that is because of the anime. As for being a marketing appendage for the games, I'm guessing the anime sells more non-main-game merchandise than game copies, and probably a lot more of it than the games do, specifically because pokemon are able to be given much more character in many ways in the anime.

Anyways, there are many people who watch the anime who never play the games, and vice versa. Neither is innately better than the other, and each has its own strengths. You are free to not care about the anime, but invalidating the opinion of anyone who takes the anime into account when discussing the pokemon universe and new additions to it is a bit much. And it's silly to think that the pokemon anime doesn't affect anything about the games. Think about the whole planned GS ball event that was aborted in the games other than one isolated Japanese event that never went worldwide because they changed their minds and decided to go a different direction in the anime. And more than that, think of the gagillions of pikachu clones that have shown up in every generation of the games. If not for Pikachu becoming the mascot through the anime, that probably would not have happened. Not to mention Pokemon Yellow, which was an entire main-series game basically based off the anime. Then there's the inflation of event pokemon, whose increasing numbers since generation 1 probably have something to do with providing a means to sell more movies, seeing as a lot of them don't really play a role in the games either directly or by setting up major region lore. Do you really think there's not someone involved in the creation of new generations whose job it is to coordinate things in development of the games for the benefit of the anime? At this point, the anime is not functioning merely as promotion of the games, but actively shaping them, just as pocket monsers red and green shaped the development of the original anime.



For how they move, you mean... how their sprites sit there and a generic animation plays separate from them? Because that's what happens in most pokemon games, and while in generation six they have implemented a couple custom move animations and some basic "at rest" movements for pokemon, the case at large is still not much changed. I'd love to sometime see a game where pokemon behavior and movement is created via complex formulas and is individualized based on species and other factors, but we're just not even close to that sort of thing. As for what moves they get and use in battle, well, you choose which moves they use in battle, so I wouldn't say that's a personality showcase of the pokemon, and as for the moves they get, that's determined mostly by the physical capabilities of their species, rather than their personalities. I suppose you could make a case for things like leer, growl, and play rough, but considering the widespread distribution of many of these, it's still rather a stretch.

As for their designs showcasing their personality, well, can you judge the personality of an animal or even a human based on it's appearance? Even in the game, you could have a bunch of liftens, which by their design all look aggressive and whatnot, but according the the game canon of "natures", some of them are timid, some are quiet, and some are bashful...

So you think the anime is just as important as the games?Tell me,if either the anime or the games were cancelled,which one would be the bigger loss to the company?Your basically describing the anime doing it's job as a marketing tool.Everything you said about the anime is basically a marketing tool being succesful and informing people about the main draw of pokemon which is the games.



Once again you are missing the point.We are talking about what Junichi Masuda said.He was talking about the games and how he wanted the starters to be relatable.Masuda has nothing to do with the anime so you bringing up how the anime non humanoid pokemon are relatable while true has nothing to with what he said.Unless your telling me you think Masuda was talking about the anime as well during E3.
 
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