Starter Discussion & Thread

[B. Thunder Tiger]

Yeah, this is a creative bunch of names we've gotten. I mean Torracat comes from "tora" (Japanese, "tiger"), "torrar" (Spanish, "to roast/toast"), and "cat", whilealso possibly alluding to "torch", "Ra" (the Egyptian God of the Sun), and "ora" (Hebrew, "light").

Hehe, who'd know the name of Torracat had so many meanings to derive from. I'd say its pretty brillant, especially with my discovery of Ra and Ora's name meanings.

Introducing Litten3, the Sun Light Torch Roasting Tiger Wrestler with a pendant for cheating and spitting oil in your face.

 

[BlitzGirl41]

Be careful who you call ugly in middle school

Uh, I never have, and I don't think that way about real humans (it's rude and disrespectful). In fact, I was the one bullied in school. This is POKEMON, guys, c'mon. I can decide for myself what is a good design and what's not.

 

[Beloberto]

People who don't think Torracat looks like Litten3 should watch the japanese trailer. There you can see it from different angles and notice how bulky its front legs are. You can't notice it in the artwork, but it is quite muscular. It is basically a Litten3 cub on fours.

Btw, I absolutely adore Torracat! I was already in love with Litten3 and now... I don't know, but I am seriously thinking about not picking Rowlet. Problem is: as much as I like the last 2 forms, I'm not a fan of Litten itself.

Dartrix. I didn't like it that much at first, but it quickly grew on me. Specially because it seems as goofy as it tries to look cool and that's great. It reminds me of Aoyama from My Hero Academia. Also, as much as I love owls, I particularly love the barn owls an this one looks so much like one! Put that together with Rowlet, that absolutely adorable thing and you would have my dream starter. Problem is: I strongly dislike Rowlet3 so far :|

Brionne... can't like it. It was supposed to be cute, but I can't see it. I am trying to see it as one of those black kids in old movies, with their cute long dresses and two braids at the top of their head, but as hard as I try, it doesn't seem close enough. At least Popplio3 looks great, but overall the whole line will probably stay on my "forgettable" zone (weirdly, most water starters end up there with me).

Uh, I never have, and I don't think that way about real humans (it's rude and disrespectful). In fact, I was the one bullied in school. This is POKEMON, guys, c'mon. I can decide for myself what is a good design and what's not.

Koga is clearly making a joke on the chubby teenager who grows up to become a hunk (Quilladin -> Chesnaught).

 

[Dragalge]

It's weird because I thought Brionne was going to be severely hated.

Turns out it's not the case! Good to see all the three mid-evos being somewhat equally liked. And I'm not surprised since I like them all!

 

[Umbilical Noose]

Or, both GF and GA started with the concept of robin hood and independently chose to make an emo-preppy teenage form on their own. It is pretty clear that the middle stages for all 3 this time are moody teenager tropes.... and honestly, I think most people saw Rowlet and were like "oh, that is going to be a snobby middle form", just look at early fan art concepts.

It is possible but then...

Robin Hood mythos is a glorious conglomeration of different traditions Robin Hood as we know him today is a mixture of the well-known outlaw (who wasn't a nice guy in the earliest versions and was killed by his sister who was a nun irrc) a Fairy-like character associated with May celebrations (probably the same source for Robin Goodfellow in the Midsummer Night's Dream) and a popular character from French Shepherd plays. Maid Marian was originally also associated with May celebrations, but independent of Robin (she was the original May Queen) And it it wasn't until the Shepherd Robin got a lover named Marian that the two may celebrations were associated with one another. When the three Robins were merged into one character over time Maid Marian simply went along and ended up as the outlaw's girlfriend.

The Arthurian Mythos is a similar glorious quagmire. Originally Morgan LeFay WAS an actual fairy who helped Arthur until he was baptized and then turned against him, Mordred wasn't Arthur's son in the beginning but just some random villain, Lancelot and Guinevere were first made lovers at the request of a French noblewoman who wanted a forbidden romance in the story and the Holy Grail wasn't associated with Arthur at all in the beginning and was included to give Arhtur something to do between building Camelot and getting killed.

That's the great thing about characters from folklore, they evolved so much over time



Lolwut? No, see the above and I'm a German/Irish born Australian, so I'm not taking that personally (and I doubt Inconspicuosaurus is either.)
Oliver Queen was developed more coherently but Robin Hood draws from hundreds of years of ballads, romances (novels), plays, folk celebrations, modern novels, TV shows, movies... It might be a contradictory mess but it's a huge body of stories with a gigantic pool of characters and scenarios that is still evolving as we speak and will likely continue to do so for a long time.
Also the Japanese often love Western media, even a couple of things that are pretty obscure here, who's to say someone at Gamefreak isn't a fan of one of the various versions were Robin hood is a total fop?

Next you tell us Captain Britain is more developed than King Arthur I assume?

Yes you can say its more developed but those stories are most of the times mutually exclusive. I mean in one story he is a land owner somewhere his father was a knight and what not. Its not a clear cut story like GA. And even though GA is based on Robin Hood it is mostly up to design. There base stories are usually different but I am not certain here cause there are so many Robin Hood stories its difficult to keep track.

Yeah... This doesn't make much sense to me honestly. GF research mythos ALL THE TIME that's what they do when designing...they don't just pick designs they already know the mythos too. So they very likely researched Robin Hood and archer legends... And I don't think it's possible to base it MORE on GA then Robin Hood... When everything GA is based on is Robin Hood... That still makes it more based on Robin Hood then GA. So if they drew ideas from Robin Hood even just a little, and green arrow, it's still drawing more from Robin Hood.

It's also just more the style of Pokémon to look at older cultural myths and legends...both the other starters have older inspirations. The Alola region itself has a traditional feel to it over a modern metropolis. I'm not denying that GA plays a part, but I don't really buy that it's the sole and primary inspiration over older lore.

I don't think GA is that much based on Robin Hood to begin with. The only consistent thing I could think of is design and general basic story(like any other super hero lel) but then Robin mostly wears that hat(don't know what its called) while GA sports the hood like Rowlet3 so there goes the design part.

There are more similarities than simple snobbish nature of Dartrix. Like Dartrix dex entry stating that it can detect opponent behind its back. A regular person would think its relating to an Owl but throughout GA's story it has been said that he has eyes on the back of his head(metaphorically speaking). Do I need to say more? I can go on. The resemblance doesn't stop here.

 

[glacialcat]

Uh, I never have, and I don't think that way about real humans (it's rude and disrespectful). In fact, I was the one bullied in school. This is POKEMON, guys, c'mon. I can decide for myself what is a good design and what's not.

No one I've seen is getting angry with you. We all disagree what makes a Pokemon design good, and we can all make our case for why we believe certain designs to be good.

I like a certain mixture of cute and cool, and cannot stand most 'viscous monster' designs. I like designs that reference mythology, legends, or real life animals.

And unlike many, I love every Kalos starter. And I think the Sinnoh starters are the worst starters. And people disagree with me. Some people love Empoleon, and I hate it with unreasonable fury. But all you can do is present your side of the argument and try to change minds, or just get your side out there.

 

[Munchy]

Brionne looks sort of weird in its official artwork, but much better in-game. I'm sure a similar thing will occur with the final evolutions as well. The anime concept art we have so far isn't even "official art", so once the actual art comes out + animations of them in-game, we'll see how they really turn out.

 

[Inconspicuosaurus]

I never mentioned the CW show :c

But I would shed more light on the matter in my comment to this other poster.



I was going to reason with you but then noticed your location and I presume you are taking this personally. Either way let me try. The thing with GA is it has developed more in those 75 years than Robin Hood can ever. Because, as you said, it lacks a single owner. Every story would be different. While GA kept on developing on its base story. People at GF are Japanese, if me as a non Japanese don't know about Robin's snobbish nature in several media, even though I have watched dozens stories, then I can't expect GF to know about this. Its also possible that the designer was a westner but I don't think they will let a person from West design a starter.

Now to the part why they would choose GA over Robin Hood when GA itself is based upon the latter? Because right now super heroes are much more popular than some folklore. A company like GF would want to capitalize on that. Naruto was popular they made Greninja, simple as that. I mean think about it, would you rather drive an electric car from Tesla or a 1950's Cadillac running on diesel? Besides they are getting fresh material without looking much further into some folk characters history.

And seriously do you believe DC would sue them for this? Unless they explicitly name it GA I don't think DC would even look in this direction.

Like I said before, in the past single Pokemon were based on different ideas. But just because it is a green archer its not Robin Hood. They might have drawn ideas from it.

Just because I am British doesn't mean I cannot comprehend reason regarding something set in my country. Being from the South, I don't even have any strong connection to the legends. It's just pretty ridiculous to hold a modern superhero on a pedestal over an ancient legend.

If you don't think GF does enough research to know about some of the slightly lesser-known aspects of a design they're working on, then you're just insulting them. Just because you didn't know, doesn't mean they weren't capable of basic research.

Superheros are popular. Right. So why base a Pokemon on an archer, rather than something that is explicitly a superhero. No superhero fan is going to get into Pokemon just because there is a Pokemon that looks vaguely like Green Arrow, who isn't even in the spotlight compared to most other superheros, considering he has a lesser-known TV show, compared to several blockbuster movies about multiple other more recognisable superheroes. Also, Greninja was definitely not created because Naruto was big. Firstly, Naruto had been big for years, so why make it when it was ending? Also, preeetty sure the concept of ninjas is more of a recognisable thing than specifically Naruto, and in a region based on France (which is famous for frogs legs) they had the perfect opportunity to combine the two things. Yeah nobody talks about eating Froakie legs, but they did use the French word for frog to make Greninja's name, so...

Also, Nintendo has been getting reeaally litigious lately themselves, so I can only imagine they try to avoid being hypocritical in that regard.

Everything else I was going to say was said much better in the comment below.

Yeah... This doesn't make much sense to me honestly. GF research mythos ALL THE TIME that's what they do when designing...they don't just pick designs they already know the mythos too. So they very likely researched Robin Hood and archer legends... And I don't think it's possible to base it MORE on GA then Robin Hood... When everything GA is based on is Robin Hood... That still makes it more based on Robin Hood then GA. So if they drew ideas from Robin Hood even just a little, and green arrow, it's still drawing more from Robin Hood.

It's also just more the style of Pokémon to look at older cultural myths and legends...both the other starters have older inspirations. The Alola region itself has a traditional feel to it over a modern metropolis. I'm not denying that GA plays a part, but I don't really buy that it's the sole and primary inspiration over older lore.

Thanks .Aerodactyl., well said.

I don't think GA is that much based on Robin Hood to begin with.

WHAT. Okay. Conversation over. You're clearly the one not capable of reasonable argument. I don't know what your bias towards GA is, but holy hell. And hood vs. hat??? His name is Robin HOOD. The hat is a modern thing.

 

[Erron Black]

Definitely love Brionne. It's super adorable and the perfect middle evo for Popplio, as if the concepts weren't real enough(because you know, Mallow), these middle evos should pretty much make them legitimate.

Torracat is really cool and cute at the same time, that collar is practically screaming to become the belt on Litten3, and I like how it works with the design right now.

Dartrix is my least favorite of the bunch at the moment. It's 'hair' just feels unnatural to me and it looks well... ugly. I was hoping it would make the transition from Rowlet to Rowlet3 a little more smoothly and a lot cooler, like by giving it little cape with a mini-hood.

 

[.Aerodactyl.]

It is possible but then...



Yes you can say its more developed but those stories are most of the times mutually exclusive. I mean in one story he is a land owner somewhere his father was a knight and what not. Its not a clear cut story like GA. And even though GA is based on Robin Hood it is mostly up to design. There base stories are usually different but I am not certain here cause there are so many Robin Hood stories its difficult to keep track.



I don't think GA is that much based on Robin Hood to begin with. The only consistent thing I could think of is design and general basic story(like any other super hero lel) but then Robin mostly wears that hat(don't know what its called) while GA sports the hood like Rowlet3 so there goes the design part.

There are more similarities than simple snobbish nature of Dartrix. Like Dartrix dex entry stating that it can detect opponent behind its back. A regular person would think its relating to an Owl but throughout GA's story it has been said that he has eyes on the back of his head(metaphorically speaking). Do I need to say more? I can go on. The resemblance doesn't stop here.

I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree. This sounds SO stretched to me, but ultimately it doesn't matter what you think it's based on It's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Nothing about Dartrix screams to me that it's more GA then anything else, especially when taken with Rowlett and the supplied Owl3 evolution. Until we know more about the final stage, we can't really know for sure anyway.

 

[Froakin' Koga]

Uh, I never have, and I don't think that way about real humans (it's rude and disrespectful). In fact, I was the one bullied in school. This is POKEMON, guys, c'mon. I can decide for myself what is a good design and what's not.

Haha no it's a popular meme used on Twitter where people will add that caption with two contrasting pics. Like it'll have Cole Sprouse and Taylor Swift. It's just a joke haha.

Besides, quilladin is probably the worst middle evo I've ever seen and Chesnaught is probably the worst final evo I've seen. So we're in agreement there.

 

[Orphalesion]

Wow, seems like I am the only one who hates all the Pokemon people here like. Am I just weird, or what is going on? I feel like I have no place expressing my thoughts because I'm the odd outlier in these forums... -_-

What? Where did that come from? Of course you can express your opinions, why is it important how many of the rest of us agree or disagree? I don't like Charizard or Greninja, a lot of people like them. Do I give a hoot? No. neither should you.

Nobody was attacking your opinion just expressing their liking for the design.

 

[BlitzGirl41]

In the end, the "leaked" art of Rowlett3 may simply be just an owl with a stereotypical archer motif, with absolutely nothing to do with legends or pop culture. Has anyone considered that?

 

[Gizmoa]

It is possible but then...



Yes you can say its more developed but those stories are most of the times mutually exclusive. I mean in one story he is a land owner somewhere his father was a knight and what not. Its not a clear cut story like GA. And even though GA is based on Robin Hood it is mostly up to design. There base stories are usually different but I am not certain here cause there are so many Robin Hood stories its difficult to keep track.



I don't think GA is that much based on Robin Hood to begin with. The only consistent thing I could think of is design and general basic story(like any other super hero lel) but then Robin mostly wears that hat(don't know what its called) while GA sports the hood like Rowlet3 so there goes the design part.

There are more similarities than simple snobbish nature of Dartrix. Like Dartrix dex entry stating that it can detect opponent behind its back. A regular person would think its relating to an Owl but throughout GA's story it has been said that he has eyes on the back of his head(metaphorically speaking). Do I need to say more? I can go on. The resemblance doesn't stop here.

Spoken like someone who doesn't actually know the story of Robinhood very well. The disney version of robinhood, is not the actual story of robinhood. Robinhood wears a hood to hide his face from the law because his face is also well known because he was originally a wealthy member of the kings court.... details vary, but the original stories have him running the line between good and evil and he is not a 100% good person (in some he ends as a true villain in a tragic way), he is actually really messed up and trying to figure out what the difference between right and wrong are. Every time he thinks he is now the good guy, he later finds he was being the bad guy. It kicks off with him realising the wealthy are living as such at the expense of others and that he was, in fact, a snobbish unfit braggart who never properly earned his place and so are the people he associates with... this is a key character element and the entire reason he becomes robinhood in the first place.

So anyhow, you can believe whatever you want, but I thought you should know what the actual story of robinhood was. Also, I have not seen green arrow, so if any of that sounds like I got it from green arrow, I did not.

In the end, the "leaked" art of Rowlett3 may simply be just an owl with a stereotypical archer motif, with absolutely nothing to do with legends or pop culture. Has anyone considered that?

yup, though the fact that he has wealthy preppy emo hair suggests they were drawing a little from the story since in all of them, robinhood is upperclass before he becomes robinhood... and most archers don't actually have hoods.

 

[Rowlet]

Dartrix actually has a hood already in its design

 

[.Aerodactyl.]

In the end, the "leaked" art of Rowlett3 may simply be just an owl with a stereotypical archer motif, with absolutely nothing to do with legends or pop culture. Has anyone considered that?

I actually honestly doubt that personally. Doesn't mean it has to link to the Robin Hood legend specifically, but starters typically have a rich mythos/history. I'm positive it's meant to be non-specific to a legend, but encompass many ideas. Usually they make underlying motifs and stuff under the surface But it also depends on what people consider as drawing from legend, etc. To many, arrows and archery are hard to seperate from mythos but to others it's just a sport and has no significance. I mean, I didn't know half of the Emboar or Infernape stuff, but I don't think they make them so you HAVE to. That's the point, they are cool on the surface But to some and for the creators there's more underneath.

 

[Jadgirl04]

So Torracat's bio on the official english sites state that the flame is 'bell-like', so it could actually get a status-removal move in Heal Bell. Nothing major, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[KKS-Lapras]

Datrix is still my favorite, but while at first, Brionne just looked odd to me, it actually has grown on me since I first looked at it. I actually kind of like all 3 middle forms.

 

[B. Thunder Tiger]

Random Starter Speculation time:

I was just looking up some stuff for Torracat, until I came across something called "Iron Shirt", and I was thinking about Litten3's leaked evo which depicts having a gray torso. Looking closer, its as if it was wearing a sleeveless shirt made of iron fur or something. If so, it just so happens that "Iron Shirt" is a chinese martial arts form, namely this:

From Wikipedia:
Iron Shirt is a form of hard style martial art exercise for protecting the human body from impacts in a fight. This is one of the 72 arts of the Shaolin Temple. Some martial arts are based on the idea that a correctly trained body can withstand more damage than one that is untrained. Iron Shirt is said to be a series of exercises using many post stances, herbs, qigong and body movements to cause the body's natural energy (qi) to reinforce its structural strength. Practitioners believe that directing energy to parts of the body can reinforce these parts of the body to take blows against them. In the Shaolin version of Iron Shirt, the practitioner would do things such as lying on a stump or supporting tablets of granite on the chest with the goal of toughening the body.

What is more interesting, is that one of its variations is named Hǔ Xiào Jīn Zhōng Zhào, which translates to "Tiger Shouting Golden Bell Exercise". Sound familiar no? Indeed, Torracat is a adolescent tiger cub who happens to depict a golden bell, otherwise its flame sac.

Maybe its just me, but I think this fits nicely with the Wrestler theme and if true, makes the evolution more sense wise. Perhaps....Litten3's Evo is a...Fire/Steel Heel wrestler?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_shirt

 

[Gabriel Faria]

also, on another note, I'm wondering if the name "torracat" is hinting at a part-ground evo, seeing as terra=earth, and torra seems like it could easily be a corruption of that.

Well, at least in portuguese, "torrar" is to heat something to the point it gets burned.