Starter Discussion & Thread

[yuoke]

Its sig move is basically worthless now.

 

[glacialcat]

Its sig move is basically worthless now.

How? It still does all the same things.

 

[Sakuraba]

Why? It was a perfectly reasonable desire.



Hidden ability will still determine a lot about Decidueye however. And the plus side of being slow and bulky is it means things like Ice Shard and Sucker Punch are less intimidating, Ice Shard's 40 BP isn't that scary when doubled if you're bulky, and Sucker Punch can be played around with support moves such as Will-O-Wisp. It does mean that Knock Off is even more of a problem however. Definitely the bane of my Gourgeist usage.

Right now things don't look particularly great for Decidueye. At least it seems like it could simply be a mixed version of Gourgeist so far. But there's a lot left to be discovered, specifically hidden abilities could completely change its potential.

Its biggest flaw won't be focusing in defense, its biggest flaw will be if it tries to stay mixed. Slow bulky attackers have worked before. Slow bulky mixed attackers, not so much.

And it's possible we see a Blaziken case again. How likely it is I don't know. But it's still possible. I'd want that, since we have Gourgeist and Trevenant as the bulky Grass/Ghost.

 

[john90]

Why? It was a perfectly reasonable desire.



Hidden ability will still determine a lot about Decidueye however. And the plus side of being slow and bulky is it means things like Ice Shard and Sucker Punch are less intimidating, Ice Shard's 40 BP isn't that scary when doubled if you're bulky, and Sucker Punch can be played around with support moves such as Will-O-Wisp. It does mean that Knock Off is even more of a problem however. Definitely the bane of my Gourgeist usage.

Right now things don't look particularly great for Decidueye. At least it seems like it could simply be a mixed version of Gourgeist so far. But there's a lot left to be discovered, specifically hidden abilities could completely change its potential.

Its biggest flaw won't be focusing in defense, its biggest flaw will be if it tries to stay mixed. Slow bulky attackers have worked before. Slow bulky mixed attackers, not so much.

Listen, I know you like a lot to contradict me but I have never said that Decidueye will never be good because of Ice shard or shadow sneak. The point is that those moves can change things when Decidueye hp are less then 25% cause this will not allow it to recover even with a slower pokemon with just good not great attack.

 

[yuoke]

How? It still does all the same things.

Trap moves don't exactly playout well for a non-prioritized pokemon with bad defensive types.

 

[knightwolf09]

Listen, I know you like a lot to contradict me but I have never said that Decidueye will never be good because of Ice shard or shadow sneak. The point is that those moves can change things when Decidueye hp are less then 25% cause this will not allow it to recover even with a slower pokemon with just good not great attack.

What if his hidden ability cancels prority moves like Dazzling or Queenly Majesty? What will it do for him then?

 

[glacialcat]

Trap moves don't exactly playout well for a non-prioritized pokemon with bad defensive types.

It's bad defensive type is the same either way. It doesn't really change if it's fast or slow.

Fast:
Spirit Shackles > Target. Target takes damage and is trapped.
Target attacks Decidueye > Decidueye defeated. Target is not trapped.

Spirit Shackles > Target. Target takes damage and is trapped.
Target attacks Decidueye > Decidueye is not defeated. Target is trapped.

Target switches out.
Spirit Shackles > New Target. New Target takes damage and is trapped.

Slow:
Target attacks Decidueye > Decidueye is defeated. Target is not trapped.

Target attacks Decidueye > Decidueye is not defeated.
Spirit Shackles > Target. Target takes damage and is trapped.

Target switches out.
Spirit Shackles > New Target. New Target takes damage and is trapped.

The only difference is that if you're slower, there's a chance you'll fail to do any damage. The trapping effects didn't change at all.

Listen, I know you like a lot to contradict me but I have never said that Decidueye will never be good because of Ice shard or shadow sneak. The point is that those moves can change things when Decidueye hp are less then 25% cause this will not allow it to recover even with a slower pokemon with just good not great attack.

I guess you'll just ignore the parts where I agreed with you on Knock Off being a problem, because of the small parts where I pointed out Ice Shard is less of a threat to something already slow and bulky.

 

[AmethystLeslie]

I just want to point this out, idk if anyone has, but I did some research on middle evo starters at level 17, with 0 IVs in speed, not raised or lowered, compare Dartrix with 23.

Ivysaur 25
Charmeleon 32
Wartortle 24
Bayleef 25
Quilava 32
Croconaw 24
Grovyle 37
Combusken 23
Marshtomp 22
Grotle 17 (22 with 31IV)
Monferno 32
Prinplup 22
Servine 33
Pignite 23
Dewott 25
Quilladin 24
Braixen 29
Frogadier 37

 

[john90]

What if his hidden ability cancels prority moves like Dazzling or Queenly Majesty? What will it do for him then?

Totally possible. The problem is that I don't know its HA so I cannot talk like I knew. Right now I'm trying to figure out its possible stats and role, when I'll know its HA I will update my prediction. At the moment I think:

110/80/95/80/95/70

Trapper wall.

 

[yuoke]

I just want to point this out, idk if anyone has, but I did some research on middle evo starters at level 17, with 0 IVs in speed, not raised or lowered, compare Dartrix with 23.

Ivysaur 25
Charmeleon 32
Wartortle 24
Bayleef 25
Quilava 32
Croconaw 24
Grovyle 37
Combusken 23
Marshtomp 22
Grotle 17 (22 with 31IV)
Monferno 32
Prinplup 22
Servine 33
Pignite 23
Dewott 25
Quilladin 24
Braixen 29
Frogadier 37

At this point another blaziken is the only hope.

 

[john90]

At this point another blaziken is the only hope.

Please guys stop be obsessed with speed. They wanted Rowlet as a wall. What's the point of a wall with 90 base speed (and a total of 530 base stats)? If Decidueye gains that speed instead of defenses it could be a problem cause it won't be that great wall but neither a good attacker with 80 base att/sp.att. It's better for him 65-70 base speed and 100 defenses rather then 95 base speed and 85 defenses. You want an inverse Emboar? A wall with great speed?

 

[yuoke]

Please guys stop be obsessed with speed. They wanted Rowlet as a wall. What's the point of a wall with 90 base speed (and a total of 530 base stats)? If Decidueye gains that speed instead of defenses it could be a problem cause it won't be that great wall but neither a good attacker with 80 base att/sp.att. It's better for him 65-70 base speed and 100 defenses rather then 95 base speed and 85 defenses. You want an inverse Emboar? A wall with great speed?

Maybe because just had two wall grass/ghosts in the last gen....now they are wasting what could have been a unique setup to just be third version. I wanted a grass greninja.

 

[AmethystLeslie]

Nah, I'm not obsessed with the speed stat, honest.

I don't play competitive, so it really doesn't matter to me if a starter isn't good competitively. It's not the end of the world. If they are good for the competitive scene, then great, if not, oh, well.

 

[john90]

Maybe because just had two wall grass/ghosts in the last gen....now they are wasting what could have been a unique setup to just be third version. I wanted a grass greninja.

This is why in the past days I really tried to point out what Rowlet was probably going to become. You guys wanted that grass greninja so much that I knew you would have been disappointed by receiving something different. However I think wall pokemon are really good. I mean I'm more scared when I see a Lugia then when I face Mega-Blaziken and Mega Gengar together. For instance I wanted a wall Primarina but know I'm starting to fear that Primarina is not the wall anymore

 

[Sakuraba]

Please guys stop be obsessed with speed. They wanted Rowlet as a wall. What's the point of a wall with 90 base speed (and a total of 530 base stats)? If Decidueye gains that speed instead of defenses it could be a problem cause it won't be that great wall but neither a good attacker with 80 base att/sp.att. It's better for him 65-70 base speed and 100 defenses rather then 95 base speed and 85 defenses. You want an inverse Emboar? A wall with great speed?

That's an interresting concept. I'd love to see it actually.

 

[yuoke]

This is why in the past days I really tried to point out what Rowlet was probably going to become. You guys wanted that grass greninja so much that I knew you would have been disappointed by receiving something different. However I think wall pokemon are really good. I mean I'm more scared when I see a Lugia that when I face Mega-Blaziken and Mega Gengar together. For instance I wanted a wall Primarina but know I'm starting to fear that Primarina is not the wall anymore

Okay...and Lugia is a legendary. Decidueye isn't exactly a legendary, and its typing isn't at all built to be a competitive wall.

Doesn't make this any less disappointing if true. There were already 2 grass/ghost walls, and four wall grass starter evos before. Still no fast grass starter with good special or mixed attack.

 

[knightwolf09]

This is why in the past days I really tried to point out what Rowlet was probably going to become. You guys wanted that grass greninja so much that I knew you would have been disappointed by receiving something different. However I think wall pokemon are really good. I mean I'm more scared when I see a Lugia that when I face Mega-Blaziken and Mega Gengar together. For instance I wanted a wall Primarina but know I'm starting to fear that Primarina is not the wall anymore

I never expected a second Greninja. I just wanted with decent speed so it can at least do better against many other that can hurt it. Also Popplio does have the highest defenses even more than Rowlet, so don't worry.

 

[Disaster_Lord]

Speed is one of the most important stats for a successful Wall, look at freaking Lugia, Arceus, zard X, Gliscor, mega Altaria and freaking Talonflame.

Getting speed over 95 lets you screw 80% of this game wallbreakers.

And yes Spdef and even physical defense Talonflame exist and are used more than all their physical variants, stall breaker bulky Gliscor, it's most successful set BTW, speed creeps to use that 95 base speed and Jolly to effectively become bulkier than it would be with a careful or impish nature.

 

[yuoke]

I never expected a second Greninja. I just wanted with decent speed so it can at least do better against many other that can hurt it. Also Popplio does have the highest defenses even more than Rowlet, so don't worry.

So if decidueye doesn't get the best defenses, how can it even be considered a wall. It's getting screwed over in its stats distribution.

 

[knightwolf09]

So if decidueye doesn't get the best defenses, how can it even be considered a wall. It's getting screwed over in its stats distribution.

This is why I said I think it's trying to be an all rounder. Something that can take a hit and be able to dish out it's own hurt, the one thing crippling it from being so is it's speed. Get that to the 90s and you'd have a decent all rounder. Something that the past Grass/Ghosts haven't been.