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Starter Discussion & Thread

What is you favorite Sun & Moon starter?

  • Rowlet

    Votes: 467 43.2%
  • Litten

    Votes: 343 31.8%
  • Popplio

    Votes: 270 25.0%

  • Total voters
    1,080
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Skyknight

Active Member
67 Speed at L38? I'm guessing that's on the sluggish side. Especially since that's the lowest stat on a critter with a neutral nature. No idea how to extrapolate the HP stat, but the two attacks and Special Defense seem roughly equivalent (which is odd, given Decidueye's alleged physical focus; IV imbalance?), with Physical Defense also on the lowish side.

Yes, the combination of low Physical Defense and Speed is getting me worried. Decidueye is likely going to be in trouble with Dark-based critters (less said about Weavile, the better)...
 

glacialcat

Well-Known Member
The leaker has posted a pic of Decidueye's stats now from level-up so someone can extrapolate a base stat range for it.

https://i.redd.it/2wvk65ncdawx.png

I'm not going to bother trying to determine it's exact EVs. We can see it has EVs, use your own brains to figure out how this effects the numbers I'm about to give. I'd narrow it down more but it'd be way more work figuring out if those EVs are 50 or 100 or 25 or what, so just going to do it the lazy way.

0 IV/0 EV / 31IV/0 EV / 31 IV/252 EV
HP: 102 / 86 / 55
Attack: 121 / 105 / 73
Defense: 95 / 80 / 48
Special Attack: 119 / 103 / 72
Special Defense: 118 / 102 / 71
Speed: 82 / 67 / 35

Obviously since we see it has EVs, the 0 IV/0EV column is impossible. But that is just to give an upper limit to the possibility. The bottom limit of 31 IV/252 EV is also impossible because we can clearly see the EVs for each stat are not 252. Again, just to give a lower bounds.

Note if you add up the middle column, you get a BST of 543. The starters tend to be around 530 BST, so if you want a "guess" of its final stats, its probably close to the middle column.

Edit: Whoops, original version listed the Attack range as lower than the Sp.Att range. The reverse is true
 
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john90

Well-Known Member
I'm not going to bother trying to determine it's exact EVs. We can see it has EVs, use your own brains to figure out how this effects the numbers I'm about to give. I'd narrow it down more but it'd be way more work figuring out if those EVs are 50 or 100 or 25 or what, so just going to do it the lazy way.

0 IV/0 EV / 31IV/0 EV / 31 IV/252 EV
HP: 102 / 86 / 55
Attack: 121 / 105 / 73
Defense: 95 / 80 / 48
Special Attack: 119 / 103 / 72
Special Defense: 118 / 102 / 71
Speed: 82 / 67 / 35

Obviously since we see it has EVs, the 0 IV/0EV column is impossible. But that is just to give an upper limit to the possibility. The bottom limit of 31 IV/252 EV is also impossible because we can clearly see the EVs for each stat are not 252. Again, just to give a lower bounds.

Note if you add up the middle column, you get a BST of 543. The starters tend to be around 530 BST, so if you want a "guess" of its final stats, its probably close to the middle column.

Edit: Whoops, original version listed the Attack range as lower than the Sp.Att range. The reverse is true

Now I'm sorry but I think they ruined it. It's not a wall nor a sweeper nor anything. Just a mix of things that can be killed with a sucker punch.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Now I'm sorry but I think they ruined it. It's not a wall nor a sweeper nor anything. Just a mix of things that can be killed with a sucker punch.

It's the samurott of this gen..
 

SageofTruth

Greninja Assassin
Eh, personally dislike of Inceneroar aside, I see problems with marketing him over Decidueye. He's not really gender neutral, limiting his appeal, plus I foresee problems with the crotch belt. Having to pelvic thrust to spit out fire could get some parents in an uproar.

But the Belt is clearly around its waist. There is no fire coming from it's crotch. It's flavor texts clearly states the heat is generated from it's navel. What more it's leaked concept at proves it can breath fire as well.

I also do not get the gender neutral thing. That is purely conjecture. I am pretty sure masculine and feminine designs appeal to everyone on some level. If anything Incineroars personality will lead it to be super marketable(also conjecture on my part). We have Tough wrestling tiger that fights for the admiration of the children. The plot lines for the anime are practically served on a silver platter. It has the perfect personality for comedy and action. It being a wrestler also means we will see it perform moves in some interesting ways.

If anything I think Incineroar will be the one they market as the battler , primarina the performer somehow, and rowlette as the cute one. Primarina and rowlette are plushy toy bait too. The money to be made is too good for them to promote decidueye heavily as it trades cuteness for coooooooool and mysterious. I just hope it gets a real HA. I wanted all three starters to be good for once sigh.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
Samurott didn't have a good signature move and z move though. So while yes his stats aren't really defined or focused on any major areas he has more going for him. Samurott has the problem of "decent stats. But focused nowhere that makes it outstanding, and needs a boost
 

john90

Well-Known Member
Samurott didn't have a good signature move and z move though. So while yes his stats aren't really defined or focused on any major areas he has more going for him. Samurott has the problem of "decent stats. But focused nowhere that makes it outstanding, and needs a boost

But Samurott has a good typing while Decidueye definitly not. Giving it 70 base speed and 75 base defense is like putting it in the metagame waiting for every physical Fire/Dark/Ghost/Flying/Ice type with more then 70 base speed to destroy it. For instance:
Swellow, Staraptor, Braviary, Talonflame, Blaziken, Infernape, Charizard x, Emboar, Arcanine, even Machamp, Conkeldurr, Sawk, Throw, Mega Banette, Rapidash, Darmaritan, Gyarados, Sharpedo, Weavile, Mythyena, Shiftry, Absol, Honchkrocw, Drapion, Krookodile, Zoroark, Bisharp, Hydreigon, Scyther, Pinsir, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Gliscor, Salamance, Shaymin-s, Archeops, Landorus, Howlucha are among those who can 1ko it. They just need Brave Bird, Acrobatics, Flare Blitz, Crunch, Sucker Punch, Knock off, Icicle crash and so on...
 

.Aerodactyl.

Well-Known Member
But the Belt is clearly around its waist. There is no fire coming from it's crotch. It's flavor texts clearly states the heat is generated from it's navel. What more it's leaked concept at proves it can breath fire as well.

I also do not get the gender neutral thing. That is purely conjecture. I am pretty sure masculine and feminine designs appeal to everyone on some level. If anything Incineroars personality will lead it to be super marketable(also conjecture on my part). We have Tough wrestling tiger that fights for the admiration of the children. The plot lines for the anime are practically served on a silver platter. It has the perfect personality for comedy and action. It being a wrestler also means we will see it perform moves in some interesting ways.

If anything I think Incineroar will be the one they market as the battler , primarina the performer somehow, and rowlette as the cute one. Primarina and rowlette are plushy toy bait too. The money to be made is too good for them to promote decidueye heavily as it trades cuteness for coooooooool and mysterious. I just hope it gets a real HA. I wanted all three starters to be good for once sigh.

I still personally disagree. The position of his belt is a risk... I know it's not directly in his crotch, but it's the appearance that is risky. It's the appearance that will drive some parents. I'm not even saying the majority will be upset with it, but it doesn't take the majority to get upset.

And more gender neutral designs DEFINITELY have a much broader appeal. Hands down. I mean, just look at the comments about the starters. Everyone's two biggest complaints about Inceneroar and Primarina is that they are too masculine and too feminine. I'm loath to bring it up and drag back those tired arguments, but they are less appealing to a broad audience because they are so polarized. With the example of Inceneroar, those that like masculine Pokémon are happy, yay! But those who don't have no compromise... But a gender neutral design has appeal to more because it meets in the middle.

I think all three Pokémon have great personality. I don't think Inceneroar has any more or less then the other two. Popplio is a performer, Rowlet to dartrix ha a great story line of having to come over their shallowness to be a great battler. I see that just as likely to be owned by a trainer like ash and having to overcome that.

For example, Chesnaught had a very bulky appearance often associated with masculinity but we hardly ever see it in the anime, instead we get two Chespin's! But the sleek design of Greninja was focused on. Dedicdueye has that sleeker, more neutral build. He's humanoid, but also still very owl like (as owls are naturally bipedal with wings) so its easier to appease both those who like humanoid Pokémon and those who prefer Pokémon be more-animal like. It also doesn't strongly bias itself towards a feminine or masculine look, etc.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
But Samurott has a good typing while Decidueye definitly not. Giving it 70 base speed and 75 base defense is like putting it in the metagame waiting for every physical Fire/Dark/Ghost/Flying/Ice type with more then 70 base speed to destroy it. For instance:
Swellow, Staraptor, Braviary, Talonflame, Blaziken, Infernape, Charizard x, Emboar, Arcanine, even Machamp, Conkeldurr, Sawk, Throw, Mega Banette, Rapidash, Darmaritan, Gyarados, Sharpedo, Weavile, Mythyena, Shiftry, Absol, Honchkrocw, Drapion, Krookodile, Zoroark, Bisharp, Hydreigon, Scyther, Pinsir, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Gliscor, Salamance, Shaymin-s, Archeops, Landorus, Howlucha are among those who can 1ko it. They just need Brave Bird, Acrobatics, Flare Blitz, Crunch, Sucker Punch, Knock off, Icicle crash and so on...

SO the only thing that has any chance of justifying it is an awesome HA? Though I still question what was GFs mindset when making this guy.
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
But Samurott has a good typing while Decidueye definitly not. Giving it 70 base speed and 75 base defense is like putting it in the metagame waiting for every physical Fire/Dark/Ghost/Flying/Ice type with more then 70 base speed to destroy it. For instance:
Swellow, Staraptor, Braviary, Talonflame, Blaziken, Infernape, Charizard x, Emboar, Arcanine, even Machamp, Conkeldurr, Sawk, Throw, Mega Banette, Rapidash, Darmaritan, Gyarados, Sharpedo, Weavile, Mythyena, Shiftry, Absol, Honchkrocw, Drapion, Krookodile, Zoroark, Bisharp, Hydreigon, Scyther, Pinsir, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Gliscor, Salamance, Shaymin-s, Archeops, Landorus, Howlucha are among those who can 1ko it. They just need Brave Bird, Acrobatics, Flare Blitz, Crunch, Sucker Punch, Knock off, Icicle crash and so on...

True, but you could switch him into a mon he's good against, and when they swap to those pokemon spirit shackle traps them in, and your next switch will be to counter that threat. Or predict a setup move and get them with taunt, which I assume he also gets.
 

john90

Well-Known Member
True, but you could switch him into a mon he's good against, and when they swap to those pokemon spirit shackle traps them in, and your next switch will be to counter that threat. Or predict a setup move and get them with taunt, which I assume he also gets.

Why should you trap someone when you have a great chace to be killed by a common move like knock off?
 

Skyknight

Active Member
Why should you trap someone when you have a great chace to be killed by a common move like knock off?

Arguably a question of whether Knock Off will still be common if tournament rules only allow for critters caught/hatched in G7. I genuinely can't remember the situation there. (There's also the matter of whether Knock Off will still use a *2 multiplier when the target has an item, rather than, say, a *1.5 multiplier.)
 

Sulfurian

Well-Known Member
Why should you trap someone when you have a great chace to be killed by a common move like knock off?

What I mean is say you swap him into a grass type move from alolan exeggutor, they swap due to being choice banded. You fire off a spirit shackle on their swap. So that mon who was going to OHKO you is now stuck in. 50/50 chance they set up or just go for the kill. You read based on how the match was going to see what type of player he is. You predict accordingly while also doing some good chip damage.

I think ultimately he does require some good predictions and planning to use, but that makes sense for a sniper. Any wrong move or calculation can cost you.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
So is it safe to say that the secret they had was in fact Exclusive Z-moves?
I'd say it's likely, but not confirmed.

I'm excited to see Primarina's myself. :D
 

Mr. Reloaded

All encompassing
Decidueye should not have been slow, damn that's gonna hurt it bad.
 

Xblade13

Experimentalist
I honestly don't see why it is such a bad thing that Decidueye is slow. He at least doesn't have any 4x weaknesses unlike Torterra and Chesnaught, who were just as slow if not slower. And since he was Flying type in his pre evolved forms, he will probably gain access to Roost. Not to mention a few Ghost types also get Trick Room.

Speed is a good stat but I hate that everybody thinks it is the only stat worth anything these days. It has better stay distribution than Emboar at least! There are strategies that don't involve initial speed too. He would be a perfect Tailwind setter as well.
 

Mrs. Oreo

Banned
Decidueye is going to become the most popular pokemon of Gen 7. I already see traces of Lucario and Greninja within it, which will likely go well with fans, particularly those who watch the anime.

I dunno about that. I think Decidueye has been well received by fans, but from what I've seen it seems like Incineroar is way more popular. I suppose that could change over time, but I think Decidueye lacks the edgy appeal that Lucario and Greninja had in terms of design at least.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
I dunno about that. I think Decidueye has been well received by fans, but from what I've seen it seems like Incineroar is way more popular. I suppose that could change over time, but I think Decidueye lacks the edgy appeal that Lucario and Greninja had in terms of design at least.
Nah, as was mentioned earlier, Incineroar has received a ton of criticism for not being quadrupedal/being another macho Fire type starter (even if it's not a Fighting type, I have seen a lot of people say it might as well be one because of its design). Plus, it's very masculine looking.

I think Decidueye has that edgy appeal, but I don't know about it being the most popular Pokemon of Gen 7. It's definitely going to be the fan favorite starter, if anything, because it's far more gender neutral than the other two are, so it appeals to more people.
 
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