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Starter Discussion & Thread

What is you favorite Sun & Moon starter?

  • Rowlet

    Votes: 467 43.2%
  • Litten

    Votes: 343 31.8%
  • Popplio

    Votes: 270 25.0%

  • Total voters
    1,080
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FowTech95

Random Passerby
You know, I picked Rowlet because it's the most adorable thing from this generation by far, and Decidueye is kinda cool-looking, I guess. But damn, I hate the middle evolution so much that I ended up dumping it in the middle of my playthrough, I just couldn't stand having it on my team lol.

I kinda agree with you there. I can't stand it when it's arrogant look when it's idle but I could say the opposite when it's in action. The half second where it opens it's eye before throwing a quill looks bad*ss IMO.
 

GonbeTR

Banned
My point is that pointing out flaws is meaningless unless you can find a better alternative. If you just point out flaws in something without suggesting something better, all you do is annoy people.

I do not think what they've done will address the Speed creep problem. I think that can only be solved with an overhaul of the battle system, on the scale of the physical/special split in Generation IV. However, I do think it's valuable to understand why Game Freak made the decision to slow Pokémon down for Generation VII.

Considering game freak's decision of creating slow pokemon as a method of addressing Speed creep is ridiculous. If you make inferior mons to change a meta, you are in fact making a zero-move. If you add slow pokemon that cannot take a hit to the aldready existing set, no logical player in the meta would use them. Thus, adding strictly inferior Pokemon that no competitive player will use, is equivalent to not adding a new pokemon. Therefore, GF's decision of making new pokemon slow, did actually change nothing in meta. It only pissed players because all cool designed pokemon turned out to be useless in competitive play.

If GF wants to adress Speed Creep, this is not a viable option. It is against basic logic (or mathematics, economics).

A possible method of adressing Speed Creep could be modifying older fast mons' speed stat; but that would piss more fans including me.
Another way is, adding some items or mechanics that reward slow mons, and punish faster mons. But GF did the opposite, by nerfing T-wave.
The best solution would be, making only a small amount of new mon really slow, but with very high bulk, plus recovery moves. And the rest would have normal or high speed.

Currently, the slowness of almost all new gen VII pokemon decrease their appeal. And many of them even do not make sense design-wise.

Finally, I have to say if you do not logically defend an argument (by ignoring the fact that gen VII did no improvement on speed creep in Meta) and try to find excuses why Game Freak made a wrong move, all you do is annoy people.
 
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Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Considering game freak's decision of creating slow pokemon as a method of addressing Speed creep is ridiculous. If you make inferior mons to change a meta, you are in fact making a zero-move. If you add slow pokemon that cannot take a hit to the aldready existing set, no logical player in the meta would use them. Thus, adding strictly inferior Pokemon that no competitive player will use, is equivalent to not adding a new pokemon. Therefore, GF's decision of making new pokemon slow, did actually change nothing in meta. It only pissed players because all cool designed pokemon turned out to be useless in competitive play.

If GF wants to adress Speed Creep, this is not a viable option. It is against basic logic (or mathematics, economics).

A possible method of adressing Speed Creep could be modifying older fast mons' speed stat; but that would piss more fans including me.
Another way is, adding some items or mechanics that reward slow mons, and punish faster mons. But GF did the opposite, by nerfing T-wave.
The best solution would be, making only a small amount of new mon really slow, but with very high bulk, plus recovery moves. And the rest would have normal or high speed.

Currently, the slowness of almost all new gen VII pokemon decrease their appeal. And many of them even do not make sense design-wise.

Finally, I have to say if you do not logically defend an argument (by ignoring the fact that gen VII did no improvement on speed creep in Meta) and try to find excuses why Game Freak made a wrong move, all you do is annoy people.

Well, I DID say that I don't think what they're doing will work. Of course, that's only if you're talking about adding the Generation VII Pokémon alone. Currently, for instance, Mega Pokémon are not allowed in VGCs, and Pokémon that can't be found in Alola are not allowed, which are bigger factors in mitigating Speed creep than the new Pokémon themselves. But I feel that Game Freak should've done more, as these only apply to one part of head-to-head play and nothing has really changed except restrictions. They've done nothing to disincentivize using fast Pokémon. In other words, I am not disagreeing with you about competitive players ignoring most of the new Pokémon, as that was something I had predicted since the base stats became available (well, the Spikes anyway--I'm sure the Timmies and Johnnies love them, though for different reasons). I am addressing the question people are asking about why so many of the new Pokémon are so slow, and I have provided the best answer I can come up with.

I do like that you've offered some suggestions as to how to solve this problem. I've been trying to come up with something that could work that won't break something else, but it's been quite difficult, as there are so many moves, mechanics, and Abilities centered around how it presently functions. The best I can come up with is to modify damage output to be inversely proportional to a Pokémon's Speed, or give a damage bonus/penalty based on who moves first, second, third, etc., though that will throw certain Pokémon off whack, with the likes of Accelgor and Electrode on one end and Snorlax and Mega Camerupt on the other. (I don't really see how adding a small amount of new Pokémon slow but bulky would reduce Speed creep. Logically, wouldn't adding in a large amount of them reduce it more?) Another possibility, as so many of the new Pokémon have unique Abilities, is to provide increased benefits for them later on (such as Fluffy also halving special attacks, Water Compaction granting immunity to Water-type attacks and sharply raising Defense, Comatose providing steady healing while giving Komala Slack Off, Queenly Majesty and Dazzling blocking all attacks from Pokémon over a certain base Speed, etc.). This is something I predict they'll do--it's possible they're "testing the waters," so to speak, and buffing the ones that didn't work out later on. Toxapex has already proven itself, for instance, so Merciless will certainly get skipped when handing out buffs.

I also don't fully understand your last statement. Strictly speaking, what is the difference between "defending an argument" and "finding excuses"? Are they not synonymous, only from different sides of the argument? (For the record, I find it meaningless to attack a particular viewpoint without first understanding why the people on the other side think the way they do.)
 
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TDMFAN

Member
How broken would it be if Decidueye's HA would've also made it so that physical contact moves would always miss? It'd make sense since the name is LONG REACH (& Distant for the JP version) and would've helped with its poor defense.
 
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Creyk

Well-Known Member
How broken would it be if Decidueye's HA would've also made it so that physical contact moves would always miss? It'd make sense since the name is LONG REACH (& Distant for the JP version) and would've helped with its poor defense.

That would be too overpowered.
It could safely switch in on too many things.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Well, I DID say that I don't think what they're doing will work. Of course, that's only if you're talking about adding the Generation VII Pokémon alone. Currently, for instance, Mega Pokémon are not allowed in VGCs, and Pokémon that can't be found in Alola are not allowed, which are bigger factors in mitigating Speed creep than the new Pokémon themselves. But I feel that Game Freak should've done more, as these only apply to one part of head-to-head play and nothing has really changed except restrictions. They've done nothing to disincentivize using fast Pokémon. In other words, I am not disagreeing with you about competitive players ignoring most of the new Pokémon, as that was something I had predicted since the base stats became available (well, the Spikes anyway--I'm sure the Timmies and Johnnies love them, though for different reasons). I am addressing the question people are asking about why so many of the new Pokémon are so slow, and I have provided the best answer I can come up with.

I do like that you've offered some suggestions as to how to solve this problem. I've been trying to come up with something that could work that won't break something else, but it's been quite difficult, as there are so many moves, mechanics, and Abilities centered around how it presently functions. The best I can come up with is to modify damage output to be inversely proportional to a Pokémon's Speed, or give a damage bonus/penalty based on who moves first, second, third, etc., though that will throw certain Pokémon off whack, with the likes of Accelgor and Electrode on one end and Snorlax and Mega Camerupt on the other. (I don't really see how adding a small amount of new Pokémon slow but bulky would reduce Speed creep. Logically, wouldn't adding in a large amount of them reduce it more?) Another possibility, as so many of the new Pokémon have unique Abilities, is to provide increased benefits for them later on (such as Fluffy also halving special attacks, Water Compaction granting immunity to Water-type attacks and sharply raising Defense, Comatose providing steady healing while giving Komala Slack Off, Queenly Majesty and Dazzling blocking all attacks from Pokémon over a certain base Speed, etc.). This is something I predict they'll do--it's possible they're "testing the waters," so to speak, and buffing the ones that didn't work out later on. Toxapex has already proven itself, for instance, so Merciless will certainly get skipped when handing out buffs.

I also don't fully understand your last statement. Strictly speaking, what is the difference between "defending an argument" and "finding excuses"? Are they not synonymous, only from different sides of the argument? (For the record, I find it meaningless to attack a particular viewpoint without first understanding why the people on the other side think the way they do.)

Honestly, as I've said before, a lot of these 'mons (bewear, komala, mudsdale, wishiwashi, oranguru, guzzlord just to name a few) would be much more competitive and actually very viable in higher tiers if they got reliable recovery. Their abilities are pretty balanced where they are at...as for toxapex, it's claim to fame WAS NOT merciless...it was regenerator...by combining tentacruel with ferrothorn along with giving it a reliable recovery move, an amazing recovery-based ability, access to haze to prevent being set up fodder, access to status that hinders walls AND sweepers as well as great defenses with three weaknesses (two of which can be easily nullified (ground and electric) and a third that is not commonly used outside of STAB (psychic)), toxapex was intended to be an amazing defensive 'mon...I'd even go as far as to say that it's the BEST nonlegendary 'mon from gen 7...
 

MetalFlygon08

Haters Gonna Hate
What moves from the usual pool of Tutor Moves do you think the starters will get?

Incineroar seem's like it will benefit the most, and will likely get: Knock-Off, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Dual Chop, Outrage, Iron Head/Tail, Zen Headbutt, Foul Play, Superpower, Spite, Gunk Shot, and Heal Bell.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Honestly, as I've said before, a lot of these 'mons (bewear, komala, mudsdale, wishiwashi, oranguru, guzzlord just to name a few) would be much more competitive and actually very viable in higher tiers if they got reliable recovery. Their abilities are pretty balanced where they are at...as for toxapex, it's claim to fame WAS NOT merciless...it was regenerator...by combining tentacruel with ferrothorn along with giving it a reliable recovery move, an amazing recovery-based ability, access to haze to prevent being set up fodder, access to status that hinders walls AND sweepers as well as great defenses with three weaknesses (two of which can be easily nullified (ground and electric) and a third that is not commonly used outside of STAB (psychic)), toxapex was intended to be an amazing defensive 'mon...I'd even go as far as to say that it's the BEST nonlegendary 'mon from gen 7...

Huh, interesting--do you mean, then, that the game between these Pokémon and the ones currently in OU are not actually that big? The way some people have been talking about them, you'd think they'd be on par with Magikarp. (That being said, there are still some Pokémon that are very hard to use even with recovery, like Palossand, Tsareena, Lurantis, Toucannon, and Vikavolt, though considering Vikavolt was in the top 50 most-used Pokémon on the last wi-fi competition, perhaps Vikavolt is at an "almost there" status. Unless it IS already there. I am a Johnny though, so I love using hard-to-use Pokémon.)

As for Toxapex, I know Regenerator is a popular ability to use on Toxapex, but I meant that because Toxapex is fine the way it is, Merciless would not get buffed either because there's no point to it. That being said, how do Regenerator and Merciless stack up in popularity in double battles? I've only played online in double battles (I haven't fully constructed a single battle team), and I'm mainly seeing Toxapex with Merciless. Switching isn't quite as common in double battles, so I'd imagine Regenerator wouldn't be as useful there.

What moves from the usual pool of Tutor Moves do you think the starters will get?

Incineroar seem's like it will benefit the most, and will likely get: Knock-Off, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Dual Chop, Outrage, Iron Head/Tail, Zen Headbutt, Foul Play, Superpower, Spite, Gunk Shot, and Heal Bell.

Honestly, I think Slack Off will be added as a Move Tutor move. There are a lot of Generation VII Pokémon associated with laziness or low energy (tying in to XXD17's comment), and Slack Off would not be out of place on Pokémon like Komala, Bewear, Oranguru, and Drampa. I also have to wonder if new moves will be created for the next Geneation VII games. Have moves been introduced mid-generation before? How long were Zygarde's signature moves known?

As for moves added, I think Midnight Lycanroc will eventually get Moonlight, sooner or later. I mean, it's a no-brainer, considering its theme. I'm surprised it can't already learn Moonlight.
 
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Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
I also have to wonder if new moves will be created for the next Geneation VII games. Have moves been introduced mid-generation before? How long were Zygarde's signature moves known?

It has been done before, but only just recently. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire added Precipice Blade, Origin Pulse, and Dragon Ascent, the first three moves to ever be created mid-gen. So I wouldn't say it's impossible that we get more moves, but seeing as the only instance of such happening was an extremely specific one, it seems unlikely. Though, one of the rumors attached to the Stars Version rumor (if you even want to give it any trust in the first place) is that there will be new Pokemon, and if there are new Pokemon, there will likely be new moves. Of course, odds are the rumor is nothing more than a rumor, so that doesn't mean much.

As for Zygarde's moves, they we first datamined out of X and Y, so they've been there since the beginning of Gen VI.

As for moves added, I think Midnight Lycanroc will eventually get Moonlight, sooner or later. I mean, it's a no-brainer, considering its theme. I'm surprised it can't already learn Moonlight.

There are a lot of Pokemon associated with the Moon and nighttime that don't learn Moonlight. Just look at Lunatone for the most obvious one.
 

MetalFlygon08

Haters Gonna Hate
Honestly, I think Slack Off will be added as a Move Tutor move. There are a lot of Generation VII Pokémon associated with laziness or low energy (tying in to XXD17's comment), and Slack Off would not be out of place on Pokémon like Komala, Bewear, Oranguru, and Drampa. I also have to wonder if new moves will be created for the next Geneation VII games. Have moves been introduced mid-generation before? How long were Zygarde's signature moves known?

As for moves added, I think Midnight Lycanroc will eventually get Moonlight, sooner or later. I mean, it's a no-brainer, considering its theme. I'm surprised it can't already learn Moonlight.


I've been hoping for Slack Off for a while, it would help counter the speed creep, since that's why all the newer Pokemon are slow, more base stats thrown into defenses, so giving them some recover to help survive against the speedy pokemon would help (though if Midnight Lycanroc got Moonlight then Midday should get Morning Sun).
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
It has been done before, but only just recently. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire added Precipice Blade, Origin Pulse, and Dragon Ascent, the first three moves to ever be created mid-gen. So I wouldn't say it's impossible that we get more moves, but seeing as the only instance of such happening was an extremely specific one, it seems unlikely. Though, one of the rumors attached to the Stars Version rumor (if you even want to give it any trust in the first place) is that there will be new Pokemon, and if there are new Pokemon, there will likely be new moves. Of course, odds are the rumor is nothing more than a rumor, so that doesn't mean much.

As for Zygarde's moves, they we first datamined out of X and Y, so they've been there since the beginning of Gen VI.

There are a lot of Pokemon associated with the Moon and nighttime that don't learn Moonlight. Just look at Lunatone for the most obvious one.

All right. So the first ones are Origin Pulse, Precipice Blades, and Dragon Ascent. But yeah, you're right. Those are special cases for special Pokémon.

As for Lunatone and Moonlight, I believe there was a promotional Lunatone that had the move. It was long after Lunatone debuted though.

I've been hoping for Slack Off for a while, it would help counter the speed creep, since that's why all the newer Pokemon are slow, more base stats thrown into defenses, so giving them some recover to help survive against the speedy pokemon would help (though if Midnight Lycanroc got Moonlight then Midday should get Morning Sun).

Sure, why not? Midday Lycanroc wouldn't need Morning Sun as much as Midnight Lycanroc needs Moonlight, but it'd make sense.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
As for Lunatone and Moonlight, I believe there was a promotional Lunatone that had the move. It was long after Lunatone debuted though.

Sure, it is possible to have a Lunatone with Moonlight, but an event-exclusive move can hardly be taken into account when talking about what moves Pokemon should be able to learn naturally.
 

Weavy

They call me the one who loves cats.
It has been done before, but only just recently. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire added Precipice Blade, Origin Pulse, and Dragon Ascent, the first three moves to ever be created mid-gen. So I wouldn't say it's impossible that we get more moves, but seeing as the only instance of such happening was an extremely specific one, it seems unlikely. Though, one of the rumors attached to the Stars Version rumor (if you even want to give it any trust in the first place) is that there will be new Pokemon, and if there are new Pokemon, there will likely be new moves. Of course, odds are the rumor is nothing more than a rumor, so that doesn't mean much.

Don't forget Hyperspace Fury was also one of the new moves for ORAS as well as the three you already mentioned. Hole was present in X/Y, but Fury wasn't.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
Don't forget Hyperspace Fury was also one of the new moves for ORAS as well as the three you already mentioned. Hole was present in X/Y, but Fury wasn't.

Oh yeah, forgot about that one. Still in the same boat of being an extremely specific case though.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Sure, it is possible to have a Lunatone with Moonlight, but an event-exclusive move can hardly be taken into account when talking about what moves Pokemon should be able to learn naturally.

All right, fair enough. Maybe it was something they hadn't thought of. I remember seeing some moves that seem like the Pokémon should've had it but never received until some generations later, my best guess being that no one thought of it until then.
 
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