Starter Discussion & Thread

[knightwolf09]

Was Scratch confirmed for Litten? I don't see it on Serebii's New Pokémon page.

He used scratch in most of the trailers and e3 demo. Plus it makes sense, cause you know...cat.

 

[Endless]

I made guesses for what moves I think will be in the starter's level up movepools:

Spoiler: Moves

Rowlet (Presuming a Grass/Flying Final Evo)

Tackle
Growl or Leer
Leafage (Confirmed)
Razor Leaf (Confirmed)
Magical Leaf
Leaf Blade
Leaf Storm
Peck (Confirmed)
Wing Attack
Air Cutter
Air Slash
Brave Bird
Feather Dance
Double Kick

Litten (Presuming a Fire/Dark Evo)

Scratch (Confirmed)
Tail Whip or Leer
Ember (Confirmed)
Fire Fang (Confirmed)
Flame Charge
Flamethrower
Flare Blitz
Incinerate
Fire Spin
Bite
Pursuit
Crunch
Sucker Punch (Especially if Heel-Based)
Feint Attack (Especially if Heel-Based)
Nasty Plot
Fury Swipes

If The Leak Is True:

Circle Throw
Seismic Toss
Storm Throw
Heat Crash

Popplio (Presuming a Water/Fairy Evo)

Pound (Confirmed)
Growl (Confirmed)
Water Gun (Confirmed)
Bubble
Bubble Beam
Whirlpool
Hydro Pump
Brine
Water Pulse
Disarming Voice (Confirmed)
Dazzling Gleam
Draining Kiss
Charm
Sweet Kiss
Acrobatics
Sing
Perish Song
Echoed Voice
Round

Popplio (Presuming a Water/Fighting Evo)

Pound (Confirmed)
Growl (Confirmed)
Water Gun (Confirmed)
Bubble
Bubble Beam
Whirlpool
Hydro Pump
Brine
Water Pulse
Aura Sphere
Focus Blast
Counter
Revenge
Disarming Voice (Confirmed)
Focus Energy
Sing
Echoed Voice
Round

Given the focus on Rowlet's feathers I could also see it learning Roost naturally. I also think Litten might learn a Poison move regardless of what type it ends up as because of its hairball theme, something like Gunk Shot, Belch or Sludge (Bomb).

 

[Aromatic Mist]

Given the focus on Rowlet's feathers I could also see it learning Roost naturally. I also think Litten might learn a Poison move regardless of what type it ends up as because of its hairball theme, something like Gunk Shot, Belch or Sludge (Bomb).

I can definitely see Belch for it, it'd make the most sense IMO as its an exaggeration of a normal bodily activity whereas the other three involve spitting trash and sludge at the opponent. But then again, things like Ursaring and Metageoss get these moves, so Litten surely could.

 

[Bguy7]

I can definitely see Belch for it, it'd make the most sense IMO as its an exaggeration of a normal bodily activity whereas the other three involve spitting trash and sludge at the opponent. But then again, things like Ursaring and Metageoss get these moves, so Litten surely could.

To be fair, Ursaring probably learns Gunk Shot in reference to bears digging through trash cans. Couldn't explain Metagross though.

Edit: Also, it's worth noting that in the case of Ursaring and Metagross that they only learn saud moves through Move Tutor/TM, which are often more freely given than level-up moves. So if, we're talking about Litten's level-up moveset, it is a different case.

 

[XXD17]

To be fair, Ursaring probably learns Gunk Shot in reference to bears digging through trash cans. Couldn't explain Metagross though.

Edit: Also, it's worth noting that in the case of Ursaring and Metagross that they only learn saud moves through Move Tutor/TM, which are often more freely given than level-up moves. So if, we're talking about Litten's level-up moveset, it is a different case.

Cats also dig through trash...the meowth line also learns gunk shot...oddly, no other cat 'mon does besides the purrloin line...maybe it has to do with the alley cat theme...you know what? Gunk shot just has weird distribution. So does seed bomb.

 

[Bguy7]

Cats also dig through trash...the meowth line also learns gunk shot...oddly, no other cat 'mon does besides the purrloin line...maybe it has to do with the alley cat theme...you know what? Gunk shot just has weird distribution. So does seed bomb.

I think the alley cat reasoning is a good one myself. I could actually see Litten getting Gunk Shot via Move Tutor for this reason, but the specific discussion I was referring to was talking about through level up, not Move Tutor.

 

[Alexander18]

I think that having another starter that has two types in the basic form is wonderful. Bulbasaur was the only one before gen 7 to have two types. Unfortunately, Bulbasaur didn't have any damaging poison moves when leveling up and had to learn some by TM or Egg moves. I think Rowlet would be different this time and have both Grass and Flying moves to learn by leveling up instead of learning just one type of moves that do damage.

 

[Erron Black]

I think that having another starter that has two types in the basic form is wonderful. Bulbasaur was the only one before gen 7 to have two types. Unfortunately, Bulbasaur didn't have any damaging poison moves when leveling up and had to learn some by TM or Egg moves. I think Rowlet would be different this time and have both Grass and Flying moves to learn by leveling up instead of learning just one type of moves that do damage.

I think the reason why is that Bulbasaur's line is mostly based on the plant aspect with spores, etc... So giving it one of the damaging poison moves through level up wouldn't really work honestly. Looking at Bulbasaur's level-up movepool you can see it's almost solely plant related barring obvious ones like Tackle and Growl.

I think Rowlet's line will definitely learn a good variety of flying moves. It already has Peck, and I expect it to get Wing Attack, Fly, Tailwind, etc...

 

[Robotnikthedrap]

Mermaids are often given enchanted voices due to absorbing with elements of the similar siren myth, which has half-human ladies trying to kill you via outing you in. Sirens has become a synonym, basically, for mermaids.

To elaborate on the origin of the Siren in relation to it's avian qualities, many scholars believe that the jeopardies surrounding old world nautical expeditions, in junction with a popularized Asian depiction of a "bird woman", may have inspired Greek poets and sailors to envision such a creature. Homer is most associated with the myth, having firstly outlined a possible local habitat, and lastly included contact with the Sirens within the pages the epic "Odyssey". The poet Ovid also mentions them in "Metamorphoses"; however, he likened them to human women, later acquiring bird like qualities due to a blessing or curse.

Many of the earliest Greek depictions of Harpies seem to be upon funerary monuments, where nude women with wings on their backs, possessing the lower extremities of humanoid bird, stood in mourning of the dearly departed, while ceramics seemed to have popularized them further beyond that of stories and poems. Traditional paintings of said creatures would appear to be a near even split between harpy like women attacking sailors, and regular unclothed females littering various rocks at sea, or climbing aboard various vessels. It would seem that a more romantic interpretation of the siren exists today; taking inspiration from their oceanic habitat, many have chosen to amalgamate them with the image of the mermaid, which is actually fairly logical, as the beautiful singing voice was the lone element in incorporating the bird likeness originally. This variety of Siren, along with that of a common woman, are the predominant choice of palette in most media.

Another logical assumption is that, as legends tend to alter themselves throughout history, as the Harpy gained prominence, the Siren was expunged of it's feathered familiarity. That's more of my personal opinion, however.

According to Anthropologists, the "bird woman" image of the ancient world, which may have inspired poets, was more than likely a depiction of a "soul bird". This creature is described to have been a wayward, Asian spirit of the winged variation said to have stolen life to "share it's fate with the living"... or something to that degree. There are a plethora of Asian myths involving winged spirits; some being creation themed, and others outlining early forms of theocracy. There's so little information on this subject, however, hence the difficulty in connecting it clearly...

EDIT: Wait, the Egyptians, of course! This passage sums it up fairly well: "The poet of the Odyssey does not describe the Sirens: to him, only their song and voice mattered. Their well-known shape in ancient art (a woman’s head on the winged body of a bird) which expresses the uncanny ambiguity of their nature, emerged not from the native Greek tradition, but rather from the art of Egypt and Mesopotamia. In the Orientalising period (the 7th century BC) this iconographic scheme became a commonplace pictorial motif, particularly in the ornamental animal and bird friezes of Corinthian vase-painting. Modern art historians call these figures ‘Sirens’, although their identification with Odysseus’ singers is hardly certain and cannot be proven, since they appear not in narrative scenes but rather in ornamental compositions. It seems likely that the Siren figures on these early vases could mean different things to different people."
http://www.szepmuveszeti.hu/classical_antiquities/highlighted-works-of-art-autumn-1101

This, of course, proves that tracing the origin of the Siren proves to be more trouble than it's worth... still, I had my suspicions about the "bird woman" angle, as I clearly recall no ancient mentions of such a connection outside of early artwork and poetry post-odyssey. They're more "supernatural songstresses" than anything else.

 

[Lykouros]

To elaborate on the origin of the Siren in relation to it's avian qualities, many scholars believe that the jeopardies surrounding old world nautical expeditions, in junction with a popularized Asian depiction of a "bird woman", may have inspired Greek poets and sailors to envision such a creature. Homer is most associated with the myth, having firstly outlined a possible local habitat, and lastly included contact with the Sirens within the pages the epic "Odyssey". The poet Ovid also mentions them in "Metamorphoses"; however, he likened them to human women, later acquiring bird like qualities due to a blessing or curse.

Many of the earliest Greek depictions of Harpies seem to be upon funerary monuments, where nude women with wings on their backs, possessing the lower extremities of humanoid bird, stood in mourning of the dearly departed, while ceramics seemed to have popularized them further beyond that of stories and poems. Traditional paintings of said creatures would appear to be a near even split between harpy like women attacking sailors, and regular unclothed females littering various rocks at sea, or climbing aboard various vessels. It would seem that a more romantic interpretation of the siren exists today; taking inspiration from their oceanic habitat, many have chosen to amalgamate them with the image of the mermaid, which is actually fairly logical, as the beautiful singing voice was the lone element in incorporating the bird likeness originally. This variety of Siren, along with that of a common woman, are the predominant choice of palette in most media. In other words, there's too many conflicting sources.

Another logical assumption is that, as legends tend to alter themselves throughout history, the Harpy gained prominence, the Siren was expunged of it's feathered familiarity. That's more of my personal opinion, however.

According to Anthropologists, the "bird woman" image of the ancient world, which may have inspired poets, was more than likely a depiction of a "soul bird". This creature is described to have been a wayward, Asian spirit of the winged variation said to have stolen life to "share it's fate with the living"... or something to that degree. There are a plethora of Asian myths involving winged spirits; some being creation themed, and others outlining early forms of theocracy. There's so little information on this subject, however, hence the difficulty in connecting it clearly...

EDIT: Wait, the Egyptians, of course! This passage sums it up fairly well: "The poet of the Odyssey does not describe the Sirens: to him, only their song and voice mattered. Their well-known shape in ancient art (a woman’s head on the winged body of a bird) which expresses the uncanny ambiguity of their nature, emerged not from the native Greek tradition, but rather from the art of Egypt and Mesopotamia. In the Orientalising period (the 7th century BC) this iconographic scheme became a commonplace pictorial motif, particularly in the ornamental animal and bird friezes of Corinthian vase-painting. Modern art historians call these figures ‘Sirens’, although their identification with Odysseus’ singers is hardly certain and cannot be proven, since they appear not in narrative scenes but rather in ornamental compositions. It seems likely that the Siren figures on these early vases could mean different things to different people."
http://www.szepmuveszeti.hu/classical_antiquities/highlighted-works-of-art-autumn-1101

This, of course, proves that tracing the origin of the Harpy proves to be more trouble than it's worth... still, I had my suspicions about the "bird woman" angle, as I clearly recall no ancient mentions of such a connection outside of early artwork and poetry post-odyssey. They're more "supernatural songstresses" than anything else.

Thank you for taking the time to clear this up! I was debating posting some research of my own - I'm a huge fan of mythology and origins of mythos species - but it looks like you covered much of it.

One thing to add is that it's possible Sirens have been confused or intermingled with the Lamia over time. Although originally depicted as a queen who was cursed to devour children, the Lamia is sometimes depicted with the tail of a serpent and are said to lure in men and then feast on them. True, a serpent tail is not identical to a fish tail, but some depictions of the Lamia show her residing near streams, rivers, and the sea, which could also have influenced the Siren's eventual amalgamation with mermaids.

 

[Robotnikthedrap]

Thank you for taking the time to clear this up! I was debating posting some research of my own - I'm a huge fan of mythology and origins of mythos species - but it looks like you covered much of it.

One thing to add is that it's possible Sirens have been confused or intermingled with the Lamia over time. Although originally depicted as a queen who was cursed to devour children, the Lamia is sometimes depicted with the tail of a serpent and are said to lure in men and then feast on them. True, a serpent tail is not identical to a fish tail, but some depictions of the Lamia show her residing near streams, rivers, and the sea, which could also have influenced the Siren's eventual amalgamation with mermaids.

It is my esteemed pleasure, good Lykouros!

Ah, the Lamia! What an astute consideration! I hadn't pondered that antecendently; nonetheless, your thesis is most excellent in raising the connection between these 2 creatures! The siren is far the more similar to the traditional idea of a Lamia in abstract, for as I had previously eluded to, the avian features of the old world "siren" depiction are a bit of a misrepresentation. You are absolutely correct in noting the similarity between the snake, the serpent, the sea, the songstress, and the temptress; all of which have been made fairly concrete in modern day lore for the seafaring among us, and in popular culture. Separate, yet similar enough for the lore to become shared betwixt. Excellent work!

Edit of ages: I suppose my original post vaulted forth from the earlier made reference to a possible seal/selkie/mermaid/siren Poplio evolution, as eluded to in the oft mentioned "concept art" which has yet to be discredited. To say "a mermaid has no correlation with a siren" is, in and of itself, permissible by obvious differences, despite both inhabiting aquatic habitats. However, to say "a siren is alone half woman/half bird" is a bit of a fallacy. In basic terms, if it sings by the sea and is adorned with feminine qualities, it is far more similar to the archetypical sirens of Homer's Odyssey; and that epic work is responsible for breathing life into the mythos at it's core, as no mention of any bird like qualities were present. Meaning, this potential evolution makes accurate reference to both mermaid/selkie and siren lore. I simply wished to illuminate this simple idea with a bit of history.

 

[Charbox]

Iv had a water starter since the very first games and for the first time I'll be braking that tradition. I just love Rowlet so much it's just adorable

 

[ReneEnjolras]

It is my esteemed pleasure, good Lykouros!

Ah, the Lamia! What an astute consideration! I hadn't pondered that antecendently; nonetheless, your thesis is most excellent in raising the connection between these 2 creatures! The siren is far the more similar to the traditional idea of a Lamia in abstract, for as I had previously eluded to, the avian features of the old world "siren" depiction are a bit of a misrepresentation. You are absolutely correct in noting the similarity between the snake, the serpent, the sea, the songstress, and the temptress; all of which have been made fairly concrete in modern day lore for the seafaring among us, and in popular culture. Separate, yet similar enough for the lore to become shared betwixt. Excellent work!

Edit of ages: I suppose my original post vaulted forth from the earlier made reference to a possible seal/selkie/mermaid/siren Poplio evolution, as eluded to in the oft mentioned "concept art" which has yet to be discredited. To say "a mermaid has no correlation with a siren" is, in and of itself, permissible by obvious differences, despite both inhabiting aquatic habitats. However, to say "a siren is alone half woman/half bird" is a bit of a fallacy. In basic terms, if it sings by the sea and is adorned with feminine qualities, it is far more similar to the archetypical sirens of Homer's Odyssey; and that epic work is responsible for breathing life into the mythos at it's core, as no mention of any bird like qualities were present. Meaning, this potential evolution makes accurate reference to both mermaid/selkie and siren lore. I simply wished to illuminate this simple idea with a bit of history.

Heh, I'm a fan of mythology too. I also thank you for explaining the differences between mermaids and sirens. I've seen and heard a lot of people just lump them together as the same thing, which sorta annoys me. They are definitely different beings.

 

[The Flash]

Rowlett will most likely stay the same. I'm excited to see its evolutions.

Litten I can see as Fire/Dark, but I'm okay with anything decoy Fire/Fighting. (Seriously though, what was GameFreak thinking with 3 straight Fire/Fighting starters?)

Popplio I bet will stay Water. It doesn't have an appearance that makes me think otherwise at this point. (Still my least favorite one out of the three).

I'll probably base my choice off whatever the final evolutions turn out to be.

Based off what we've seen, here's how I rank each Generation...

1. Gen 3
2. Gen 1
3. Gen 4
4. Gen 2
5. Gen 7
6. Gen 6
7. Gen 5

Gen 3 stands out to me because I liked all 3 of them, as well as all 3 of the Gen 1's. But the designs for Hoenn were just a tad better.

Gen 2 and 4, and 7 each had 2 pokemon I really enjoyed (Chikorita and Totodile, Chimchar and Turtwig, Rowlett and Litten).

Gen 6 wasnt terrible, but the designs just weren't my favorite.

Gen 5 suffered Fire/Fighting fatigue, and Snivy was the best out of a weak group.

 

[Requiem Aeternam]

I wish I could change my vote on the poll from Rowlet to Popplio. Popplio has really grown on me and I haven't taken a Water-type on my first play through of a generation since Blue version (took Squirtle, Cyndaquil, Treecko, Chimchar, Snivy and Fennekin for the other generations). It'll be a nice change of pace even if my starter Popplio will probably end up with all the water HMs while I breed for a better one to use online. Just need to think of a nickname for mine but I'll decide on that later when the evolutions are revealed. I'm still personally hoping the siren design for Popplio's evolution is real, even though I doubt it is, purely because I like the design. I'll be happy with whatever the evolutions are however as long as they have good designs but, even if they don't, there are always lots of other non-starter Pokemon to choose from.

 

[Nuzlocker4Life]

So I decided to take the liberty of drawing curve lines on each of the starters' dex entries, to maybe see if it could provide insight to their evolutions. This is what I've discovered:

Personal Musings
Rowlet's curved line is an upward curve. This makes me wonder if Rowlet could potentially become a long-legged burrowing type of owl creature. However, this may not be the case, as there is plenty of canvas space remaining to the right of the last Pokeball, which would be plenty big for a flying, mid-air pose.

Litten's is the least dramatic of the three starters in terms of what it may evolve into. It is similar to Rowlet's, albeit flipped vertically on the y-axis, and less steep. The spacing between the evolution spots/the Pokeballs may imply that Litten will simply become a much bigger cat, but still be relatively smaller than the other two starters' final forms.

Popplio's is by far the most intriguing and unusual of the bunch. The curvature is incredibly dynamic, implying the evolution will be quite a spectacle to be seen, a very fitting motif for our little sea lion. The line curves upwards sharply, then gradually slopes downwards for its final evo. I have a feeling Popplio's final evo will be the largest of the group, as the final Pokeball for it even bleeds into the outer frame.

Someone I discussed this image with came up with an intriguing and fitting theory for Popplio's potential evolution: the middle stage could be Popplio balancing its body on a water ball/balloon, then its final form could have Popplio balancing a water ball/balloon on its nose, like a true circus seal.

It is mentioned multiple times throughout the official site's description of Popplio and its use of water balloons simultaneously as a weapon and a show spectacle.


What does this all mean?
It doesn't confirm nor deconfirm the leaks of Popmaid and Luchalitten.
But it does provide strong evidence against them of being real.

What do you guys think?

 

[knightwolf09]

So I decided to take the liberty of drawing curve lines on each of the starters' dex entries, to maybe see if it could provide insight to their evolutions. This is what I've discovered:

Personal Musings
Rowlet's curved line is an upward curve. This makes me wonder if Rowlet could potentially become a long-legged burrowing type of owl creature. However, this may not be the case, as there is plenty of canvas space remaining to the right of the last Pokeball, which would be plenty big for a flying, mid-air pose.

Litten's is the least dramatic of the three starters in terms of what it may evolve into. It is similar to Rowlet's, albeit flipped vertically on the y-axis, and less steep. The spacing between the evolution spots/the Pokeballs may imply that Litten will simply become a much bigger cat, but still be relatively smaller than the other two starters' final forms.

Popplio's is by far the most intriguing and unusual of the bunch. The curvature is incredibly dynamic, implying the evolution will be quite a spectacle to be seen, a very fitting motif for our little sea lion. The line curves upwards sharply, then gradually slopes downwards for its final evo. I have a feeling Popplio's final evo will be the largest of the group, as the final Pokeball for it even bleeds into the outer frame.

Someone I discussed this image with came up with an intriguing and fitting theory for Popplio's potential evolution: the middle stage could be Popplio balancing its body on a water ball/balloon, then its final form could have Popplio balancing a water ball/balloon on its nose, like a true circus seal.

It is mentioned multiple times throughout the official site's description of Popplio and its use of water balloons simultaneously as a weapon and a show spectacle.


What does this all mean?
It doesn't confirm nor deconfirm the leaks of Popmaid and Luchalitten.
But it does provide strong evidence against them of being real.

What do you guys think?

Still doesn't provide much evidence against them.

Thanks to this screen shot we now see the spacing and height can be weird, so for all we know the concept evos can still fit in there.

 

[Julia Artemis]

So I decided to take the liberty of drawing curve lines on each of the starters' dex entries, to maybe see if it could provide insight to their evolutions. This is what I've discovered:

Personal Musings
Rowlet's curved line is an upward curve. This makes me wonder if Rowlet could potentially become a long-legged burrowing type of owl creature. However, this may not be the case, as there is plenty of canvas space remaining to the right of the last Pokeball, which would be plenty big for a flying, mid-air pose.

Litten's is the least dramatic of the three starters in terms of what it may evolve into. It is similar to Rowlet's, albeit flipped vertically on the y-axis, and less steep. The spacing between the evolution spots/the Pokeballs may imply that Litten will simply become a much bigger cat, but still be relatively smaller than the other two starters' final forms.

Popplio's is by far the most intriguing and unusual of the bunch. The curvature is incredibly dynamic, implying the evolution will be quite a spectacle to be seen, a very fitting motif for our little sea lion. The line curves upwards sharply, then gradually slopes downwards for its final evo. I have a feeling Popplio's final evo will be the largest of the group, as the final Pokeball for it even bleeds into the outer frame.

Someone I discussed this image with came up with an intriguing and fitting theory for Popplio's potential evolution: the middle stage could be Popplio balancing its body on a water ball/balloon, then its final form could have Popplio balancing a water ball/balloon on its nose, like a true circus seal.

It is mentioned multiple times throughout the official site's description of Popplio and its use of water balloons simultaneously as a weapon and a show spectacle.


What does this all mean?
It doesn't confirm nor deconfirm the leaks of Popmaid and Luchalitten.
But it does provide strong evidence against them of being real.

What do you guys think?

I totally believe they're fake. It feels they are trying to copying the style Game Freak goes for with other non starter pokemon, but it just feels off. The idea that Litten becomes a gangster/puroresu wrestler just doesn't make sense to me and Rowlet's while looking possible it just feels too overly complicated in a way they never do with their starting pokemon. They generally have the starter have fairly simple concepts and usually you can make sense of their evolution. Except maybe Oshawott, but even that wasn't as extreme as those "leaked" starter evos. My guess if they'll just be bulky versions of the starters. Perhaps Litten gains a Dark or Rock typing and Poppolio gains Fairy but doubt they'll be as complex as those photos were.

 

[clbgolden12]

I totally believe they're fake. It feels they are trying to copying the style Game Freak goes for with other non starter pokemon, but it just feels off. The idea that Litten becomes a gangster/puroresu wrestler just doesn't make sense to me and Rowlet's while looking possible it just feels too overly complicated in a way they never do with their starting pokemon. They generally have the starter have fairly simple concepts and usually you can make sense of their evolution. Except maybe Oshawott, but even that wasn't as extreme as those "leaked" starter evos. My guess if they'll just be bulky versions of the starters. Perhaps Litten gains a Dark or Rock typing and Poppolio gains Fairy but doubt they'll be as complex as those photos were.

I don't see how they're overcomplicated, especially compared to starters like Greninja, Chestnaught, Blaziken, etc. that barely look like their pre-evolved forms.

 

[Erron Black]

I totally believe they're fake. It feels they are trying to copying the style Game Freak goes for with other non starter pokemon, but it just feels off. The idea that Litten becomes a gangster/puroresu wrestler just doesn't make sense to me and Rowlet's while looking possible it just feels too overly complicated in a way they never do with their starting pokemon. They generally have the starter have fairly simple concepts and usually you can make sense of their evolution. Except maybe Oshawott, but even that wasn't as extreme as those "leaked" starter evos. My guess if they'll just be bulky versions of the starters. Perhaps Litten gains a Dark or Rock typing and Poppolio gains Fairy but doubt they'll be as complex as those photos were.

So Chestnaught having inflatable shield arms isn't as complicated as wings that act as a bow? Or a tongue being a scarf? A sea lion having hidden samurai swords on its arm? I'm sorry that is just a very very poor point.

Plus as stated before nobody would thought tepig would turn into emboar, or torchic into blaziken. Anything is possible, we've only seen the first stage.