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Starter Discussion & Thread

What is you favorite Sun & Moon starter?

  • Rowlet

    Votes: 467 43.2%
  • Litten

    Votes: 343 31.8%
  • Popplio

    Votes: 270 25.0%

  • Total voters
    1,080
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Not open for further replies.

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
>Implying there hasn't ever been a Pokemon that has a mythological basis, and has only been purely genetic/biological.

It's quite clear Pop3 is based on a Seal and a Mermaid/Siren or just a Selkie. Therefore, why would it need to be just like a normal Pinniped, especially if that's been down many times before?

Mermaid, not Siren. Only a couple of language don't differentiate them, mermaid dogs, mermaids and Selkies are all different half fish creatures.

Sirens are bird like cursed creatures unless you are part of a language like Spanish that uses Sirena as in Siren for both.

Calling Popplio a Siren is like calling wingul a mermaid mythos wise.
 

Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
Mermaid, not Siren only a couple of language don't differentiate them, mermaid dogs, mermaids and Selkies are all different half fish creatures.

Sirens are bird like cursed creatures unless you are part of a language like Spanish that uses Sirena as in siren for both.

Nope, as I have pointed out several times in this very thread, Sirens and mermaids have been thrown together since Medieval Times, I own a reprint of a German Bestiary that declares "Sirens are wonders of the sea, they are called Mermaids in German" (and the words of Siren and Mermaid are different in German: Sirene and Merjungfrau, they even have a third one "Nixe") and another (British) text were an explorer describes a Mermaid "with short, round feathers"
Who's to say the classical version (which? the normal women, the bird women, the normal women transformed into birds?) is better than the Medieval one?
 

DSDark

Breeder
......except it's not even a human. Why would a non-humanoid creature need to conform to the sexual dimorphism of human beings? It's not like a majority of fans don't care about these "odd occurrences" such as female Machamp, male Gardevoir, etc. Besides, it's not like we have plenty of Pinniped-based Pokemon that are more like the males of the species (even if it is female.)

Because its Animorphic appearance is directly taken from a Humanoid creature that have both male and female members.

Machamp doesn't show anything to lead in one gender direction and neither does Gardevoir
 

LockFelino

Sparkling Noodleboi
Because its Animorphic appearance is directly taken from a Humanoid creature that have both male and female members.

Machamp doesn't show anything to lead in one gender direction and neither does Gardevoir

I dunno, I feel like the spandex shorts on Machamp is a definite hint it leans more towards men than women. Sure, muscular women and body builders exist, but they don't usually go topless.

But that's it from me, as for some reason we cant seem to get away from this one debate and it's completely asinine.
 

JVLightningLover

Veteran Trainer
I dunno, I feel like the spandex shorts on Machamp is a definite hint it leans more towards men than women. Sure, muscular women and body builders exist, but they don't usually go topless.

But that's it from me, as for some reason we cant seem to get away from this one debate and it's completely asinine.

Except that female humans often don't go topless because of their anatomy, which doesn't apply to Machamp, a creature without nipples and who likely has no mammary glands, seeing as the egg laying seems to indicate a non-mammalian classification, despite the humanoid appearance.
 

Inconspicuosaurus

Bone-ified dinosaur
there's never been one that's so overtly towards one gender. It's also odd because Popplio is probably going to 87.5% male and 12.5% female like all starters

Well popplio3 would be very nice if you have a female popplio, I just don't think it would fit a male popplio tbh. That is the main issue i guess.]

Just like litten3 would be odd if you have a female litten.
The starters are gendered that way purely for rarity purposes. It makes them more challenging to breed. That. Is. It. Technically, if you pick out one of the almost 7 billion people in the world, they are more likely to be female than male. Does that mean the basic human body shape should be more female? No. If you don't like using a male Pokemon that has classically female (by human standards) characteristics, then either suck it up or don't pick Popplio. I'm not the biggest fan of the "girlier" Pokemon, but I get that they're not there for me. I also accept that the masses of more masculine Pokemon over the years have more than made up for it.

If male Popplio bothers you so much, just get a female and don't make it an issue. Believe me, 99% of young kids won't care about the gender of their Pokémon. They just want the Pokémon.

Some people will want their Popplio to be male. There is more to it than just... human expectations on what a male and female body would look like. You can't apply these same rules of "genderization" on fictional creatures like Pokémon.

If you know beforehand that Popplio is going to turn out the way it does and you associate it with feminity, then just get a female Popplio. End of story.

......except it's not even a human. Why would a non-humanoid creature need to conform to the sexual dimorphism of human beings? It's not like a majority of fans don't care about these "odd occurrences" such as female Machamp, male Gardevoir, etc. Besides, it's not like we have plenty of Pinniped-based Pokemon that are more like the males of the species (even if it is female.)
Just quoting you guys because it saves me saying exactly the same thing I and others have said on all the other occasions this topic has arisen. Thank you for being sane, logical people.

Mermaid, not Siren. Only a couple of language don't differentiate them, mermaid dogs, mermaids and Selkies are all different half fish creatures.

Sirens are bird like cursed creatures unless you are part of a language like Spanish that uses Sirena as in Siren for both.

Calling Popplio a Siren is like calling wingul a mermaid mythos wise.
There are almost no contemporary (well, as much as you can be contemporary to a fictional creature) descriptions of what sirens supposedly looked like, and the ones there are vary wildly, like any mythological creature. Sometimes they are mentioned to have wings, but the fact that they always lived on islands and lured sailors to a watery grave means they have been conflated with mermaids for centuries. So much so that everything from medical conditions to real-life animals has been named after them, with that name chosen because of a resemblance to classic depictions of mermaids. When something that's already as fluid as mythology has two ideas which have meant similar things to so many people for so long, you can't blame people for continuing to do so today.

Also, warning the Sirenomelia page has a some kinda disturbing pics.
 

DSDark

Breeder
I dunno, I feel like the spandex shorts on Machamp is a definite hint it leans more towards men than women. Sure, muscular women and body builders exist, but they don't usually go topless.

But that's it from me, as for some reason we cant seem to get away from this one debate and it's completely asinine.

This topic won't die we haven't gotten anything offically new in regards to the starters since they revealed them in May
 

yuoke

Treasure huntin'
Because its Animorphic appearance is directly taken from a Humanoid creature that have both male and female members.

Machamp doesn't show anything to lead in one gender direction and neither does Gardevoir

Come on now, saying machamp isnt super masculine or gardevioir isnt super feminine is just asinine. If you dont mind them being the opposite gender that is fine but you cant just literally ignore their designs.
 

Thepowaofhax

Well-Known Member
Because its Animorphic appearance is directly taken from a Humanoid creature that have both male and female members.

Machamp doesn't show anything to lead in one gender direction and neither does Gardevoir
Again, it is a fictional creature based on a Mermaid/Siren/Selkie mixed with a Seal, all of which (Selkie may be an exception) are overwhelmingly depicted has feminine creatures (in fact, they are only filled with female members, Selkie being an exception). Therefore, why would an overly-feminine creature, by our standards, have to be confined to human sexual dimorphism, especially one that is, yet again, not a humanoid? It just doesn't make sense, and if you have that much of a problem with a male Popplio, you're better of just SRing for a female or not picking it at all.

Machamp kinda does though. Are you really going to argue that Machamp, with the obvious references to a male-dominated sport (champion belt for wrestling), heavily muscular body (which is generally a trait for biological males), broader shoulders, lack of nipples and thus lack of mammary glands, etc are not traits mainly associated with biological males?

What about Gardevoir? While yes, it's origin may have been with knights, let us not forget that the tabard it's supposed to be wearing is seen by the community as a dress (especially with the wedding dress for the mega-evolution). There's no doubt that dresses in modern culture are dominantly considered feminine in most cultures. There's also the fact that the head looks like it was based on a more feminine hair style, but that is subjective. Your claims are absurd and quite literally irrational.

Mermaid, not Siren. Only a couple of language don't differentiate them, mermaid dogs, mermaids and Selkies are all different half fish creatures.

Sirens are bird like cursed creatures unless you are part of a language like Spanish that uses Sirena as in Siren for both.

Calling Popplio a Siren is like calling wingul a mermaid mythos wise.
While yes, Sirens are traditionally supposed to be Harpy-like creatures, they are easily mistaken by many people to be mermaid-like creatures that lure sailors to their demise due to Medieval depictions. Many modern depictions of Sirens are that of mermaid-like creatures, anyways.
 
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.Aerodactyl.

Well-Known Member
So what I'm hearing from people is that the main problem people have with Poppliovely is that it's gender ratio doesn't match it's appearance... Weather you subjectively like it's design or not aside.

I understand how that might be one of those nitpicky things that can grate on the nerves. I feel the same way about incenses and breeding certain baby Pokémon... Like it makes NO sense to me XD.

But I have to ask... And I mean this not to be mean or harsh... Is it really worth getting hung up on? The reason the gender ratio is split that way has nothing to do with gender appearance, but actually has more to do with rarity. It's why Eevee has that ratio, and fossil Pokémon, and both categories have Pokémon that could be considered to "not fit". Sylveon can be seen as really girly, so does Espeon and glaceon depending on your view (at least they do to me, but I've never been one to care about what gender my Pokémon is anyway). Aurorus, the fossil Pokémon, is also very femine looking with its colour scheme, and doesn't match it's gender ratio. You're also capable of getting it in the gender you want, even if it is a little more difficult. The point of having three starters, is that you have a choice, so if you don't want a feminine looking Pokémon, you can pick another. And unfortunately, you may not like any of them. Or you could like all and have a hard time picking.

I mean, there are plenty of things scientifically, or with just plain common sense, that could stand to change in Pokémon. But it's not culturally offensive as far as I'm aware, it isn't oppressive or threatening...it's just a bit weird. Like leaving home at 10 to dog fight, or not being able to climb back up a ledge you can jump down, or needing a Pokémon to swim. But these things are in the game not for science or common sense, but as part of the game, to make puzzles, to keep the player on a certain path, as part of the meta game balance, or keep certain things rare, etc.

For the sake of argument, we also don't KNOW what the gender ratio will be if Poppliovely is real. They probably won't change the gender ratio of starters, but they could. In some ways, thanks to the GTS and newer game mechanics, the rarity caused by the gender ratio has been lessened (even in cases like breeding hidden abilities). I wouldn't mind a gender ratio switch to 50/50, but I don't need it to necessarily match aesthetically or anything. Ultimately it has no effect on me personally.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
I'm merely pissed of at Popplio supposed final stage for taking a mermaid route when seals and even sea lions have a lot to offer and build around.

A Selkie is fine, I got no qualms against it, a dog mermaid would have been a great pun and I can get behind it, but somehow wasting the biggest example of genepool selection by traits on a sea mammal feels wrong from a real life point of view, I mean when you have singing males, roaring with a proboscis males or outright vicious fighters in sea lions or highly technical fighters in elephant seals it feels kind of a waste to let these traits go down.

I can live with a Selkie going Leanan Sidhe route, but I can't stop feeling this is a wasted opportunity. For the love of God we need a dark type sea lion as well, these guys are rabid dogs when fighting each other!

We also need a walrus princess badly, we got a Selkie let's explore other myths!, now we need an acid Shark and a Walrus princess.
 
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Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
I'm merely pissed of at Popplio supposed final stage for taking a mermaid route when seals and even sea lions have a lot to offer and build around.

We already have another seal and a walrus that are solely based on the animals. So for the third visit to the superfamily Pinnipedia they chose to combine it with a mermaid, which makes sense when you think of Selkies and old tales of sailors confusing marine mammals for mermaids.

Yes Selkies are not Mermaids if you classify them by the Dungeons and Dragons Monster Manual, but in real world mythology the lines between tales and different creatures blurr and mix all the time, plus pokemon often combine inspirations from different sources. Before literacy was widespread people didn't sit around with huge class encyclopedias to make sure whatever they imagined was "in canon", they told tales from memories, missrembered, associated foreign elements with things they were more familiar with, changes details according to their own tastes, that's how distinct mythologies developed in the first place.

When it comes down to it most animal species could produce a number of pokemon, depending on which aspect of the critter the designer focus on (real world, cultural and/or mythological) when we go as broad as groups and (super)families the possibilities become endless.
I understand not being happy with a design choice (I despise Komala for turning one of my favourite animals into something that looks, to me, a little, bald man) but that's Pokemon, with almost 800 critters, some are bound to not meat everybody's approval.
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
OK I cannot unsee bald men Komala...i thought it was a cool pun on pillow and sleeping.

Well, I have been disappointed by other stuff in the past, but so far only Selkie Popplio made me think of wasted potential along mega Audino.
 

Orphalesion

Well-Known Member
OK I cannot unsee bald men Komala...i thought it was a cool pun on pillow and sleeping.

Well, I have been disappointed by other stuff in the past, but so far only Selkie Popplio made me think of wasted potential along mega Audino.

Sorry for that... personally I think it would already help if it opened its eyes, large, clearly animalistic eyes would instantly shatter the "little bald man" illusion.

The first pokemon that really, really disappointed me was Ludicolo. Since Pokemon blue I wanted a beautiful, grass/water waterlily fairy/nymph....what did I get? An ugly blob monster (and arguably yet another pokemon that draws inspiration from the Kappa). Even worse, so far the Ludocolo line is the only grass/water line, despite the huge number of aquatic plants ;_;
 
I'm self deleting my own post because I felt my comment was not adding to the discussion.

Note: Please don't continue to complain about the "feminine" Popplio evolution. It's not a profound discussion and has been talked about enough.
 
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SKyLineR32

Master Weasel
I'm merely pissed of at Popplio supposed final stage for taking a mermaid route when seals and even sea lions have a lot to offer and build around.

A Selkie is fine, I got no qualms against it, a dog mermaid would have been a great pun and I can get behind it, but somehow wasting the biggest example of genepool selection by traits on a sea mammal feels wrong from a real life point of view, I mean when you have singing males, roaring with a proboscis males or outright vicious fighters in sea lions or highly technical fighters in elephant seals it feels kind of a waste to let these traits go down.

I can live with a Selkie going Leanan Sidhe route, but I can't stop feeling this is a wasted opportunity. For the love of God we need a dark type sea lion as well, these guys are rabid dogs when fighting each other!

We also need a walrus princess badly, we got a Selkie let's explore other myths!, now we need an acid Shark and a Walrus princess.

Why bring up real life? This is Pokemon. The series isn't obligated to conform to any real world biology.

This is why I had zero expectations for what the starters would evolve into. I decided to just wait and see what happens. We are getting ever closer to 1000 species. We have seen enough Pokemon by now to learn that not everything is going to end up what we think is obvious or "logical".
 

Disaster_Lord

Sad Bayleef is Sad.
Why bring up real life? This is Pokemon. The series isn't obligated to conform to any real world biology.

This is why I had zero expectations for what the starters would evolve into. I decided to just wait and see what happens. We are getting ever closer to 1000 species. We have seen enough Pokemon by now to learn that not everything is going to end up what we think is obvious or "logical".

It still feels like a wasted opportunity for a cool species that rocked the evolutionary niche and even went further with gender differences by gender traits dictating wich genes are passes off rather than only environmental values determining the survival rate of a trait.

And I get my fair share of suspension of disbelief and fun with concepts or puns from other pokemon, Vaniluxe and Gardobor are among my favorite Pokémon designs for being so silly yet so effective on being a living icicle and a living trash can entity, or klefki not only being a fairy that steals key, but he is a key chain to boot! Pokemon is never out of fun concepts, but for one I think that sticking to gender dimorphism would have worked great unlike unfezant who was just mediocre, letting the species be defined by the male specialized traits would have opened some cool windows in my opinion, but a Selkie is fine and unique, I can live with a Selkie even if they went too far on the Leanan Sihde part of the fairy spectrum.
 

Julia Artemis

Well-Known Member
We get it you guys are uncomfortable playing with characters that look vaguely female. Just don't use it and pick the uber masculine cat or the larper owl
 

PsychoIncarnate

Well-Known Member
When I'm getting a Gardevoir I usually for for a female but I care more about nature and IV's. If I have a male Gardevoir I just name it Futa
 
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clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
We get it you guys are uncomfortable playing with characters that look vaguely female. Just don't use it and pick the uber masculine cat or the larper owl
I agree with this (to some as extent, as I'd barely say Popplio3 is "vague" when it comes to its feminine qualities). I think Popplio3 is a bit too feminine for its gender ratio as well, but I don't plan on picking Popplio anyways, so there's no reason to bring it up every page or two.
 
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