future.newyorker
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Some are support oriented, i.e. Audino.
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Some are support oriented, i.e. Audino.
When you think about it, aren't all pokemon combat oriented in their special way?
Combat oriented in the sense of being involved with some sort of martial arts.
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
Combat oriented in the sense of being involved with some sort of martial arts.
Does wrestling count as a martial art? Especially dirty wrestling?
mapachatumbili
Pokenerd
Infernape is actually my 2nd favorite Pokemon period (only behind Jolteon), and at the time, it was refreshing. The fire/fighting combo hadn't really been done before, and Fire/Fighting addressed a major issue with Fire starters having a lack of a good movepool, stats, and type balance. Blaziken was good, but it could always be improved. Infernape was a nice addition that might have shared the same typing as Blaziken, but also played much differently. The main difference between the two was that Blaziken still hit a bit harder (especially on the physical part), while Infernape was more of a trickster and had more speed, but less defenses. Infernape was the original Greninja in that it could do nearly anything you wanted (Infernape can Stealth Rock and use Assist for example, and is one of the few Pokemon with Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, and a healing move in Slack off). Infernape was also based off of Sun Wukong (Son Goku) of Journey to the West, so that made Infernape even more awesome (similar to how Greninja was based off a classic tale as well). So people liked Infernape cause it brought something new to the table, but Blaziken still had some unique toys of its own (such as Baton Pass).
Then came Emboar, and by that point, it just felt like pure laziness. Outside of Scald (which until Volcanion was created, no other fire type could learn) and Heat Crash (unique move similar to Heavy Slam), nothing Emboar did really felt refreshing. Emboar was slower then both Blaziken and Infernape, and couldn't hit as hard as either of them (with the exception of Emboar's attack to Infernapes attack). The great HP was definitely nice, but then Emboar had a really hard time coming up with a reliable fighting STAB. Low Kick often did really bad damage since it was based on weight, even with STAB, Arm Thrust had low bp even if all 5 hits connected, Hammer Arm made you slower, so unless you were using a TR team, it was suicide, and Superpower weakened your attack and defense after each use. I actually like Emboar a lot. And in fact, out of the three Unova starters, Emboar was the only one that didn't suffer from a crappy movepool! But being the third fire/fighting type sent Emboar to an early grave, despite the awesome promotional videos for BW 2 at the time. Emboar was also supposedly based on the same story as Infernape before it, but that still wasn't enough. Too much of a good thing can quickly turn into a bad thing unless you can keep it fresh.
When the Kalos starters were first revealed, Fennekin was the fan favorite by a mile. Chespin and Froakie didn't even come close. When we got Braixen it wasn't too bad because all the starters were humanoid at the second stage, Quiladdin was seen as looking "silly", and Frogadier was starting to show signs of the awesomeness to come. Still, a couple were still dissapointed due to all the humanoid fire fighting types we got for three gens straight, plus the fact that power up punch was in Fennekin's moveset in the demo's. Then once we got Delphox, several jumped off the train due to not wanting another humanoid fire type, and Greninja being so much more awesome. What people don't realize though, is that every fire starter is humanoid (stands on two legs), even Typhlosion. It's one of those themes that never changes, such as the starter trio and the Pikachu expy.
Then came Emboar, and by that point, it just felt like pure laziness. Outside of Scald (which until Volcanion was created, no other fire type could learn) and Heat Crash (unique move similar to Heavy Slam), nothing Emboar did really felt refreshing. Emboar was slower then both Blaziken and Infernape, and couldn't hit as hard as either of them (with the exception of Emboar's attack to Infernapes attack). The great HP was definitely nice, but then Emboar had a really hard time coming up with a reliable fighting STAB. Low Kick often did really bad damage since it was based on weight, even with STAB, Arm Thrust had low bp even if all 5 hits connected, Hammer Arm made you slower, so unless you were using a TR team, it was suicide, and Superpower weakened your attack and defense after each use. I actually like Emboar a lot. And in fact, out of the three Unova starters, Emboar was the only one that didn't suffer from a crappy movepool! But being the third fire/fighting type sent Emboar to an early grave, despite the awesome promotional videos for BW 2 at the time. Emboar was also supposedly based on the same story as Infernape before it, but that still wasn't enough. Too much of a good thing can quickly turn into a bad thing unless you can keep it fresh.
I don't think Delphox was poorly received for being humanoid. Just look at Braixen. It's humanoid, too, and fairly popular because it has the "cute magical girl" look to it. I think Delphox was poorly received because it doesn't have that same "cute magical girl" look to it.
If fanart is anything to go by, people were probably expecting a bigger, more detailed version of Braixen, and Delphox just isn't that.
Although that makes me wonder why people seem to be perfectly fine with Braixen being feminine looking while Brionne and Pop3 are bad.
When the Kalos starters were first revealed, Fennekin was the fan favorite by a mile. Chespin and Froakie didn't even come close. When we got Braixen it wasn't too bad because all the starters were humanoid at the second stage, Quiladdin was seen as looking "silly", and Frogadier was starting to show signs of the awesomeness to come. Still, a couple were still dissapointed due to all the humanoid fire fighting types we got for three gens straight, plus the fact that power up punch was in Fennekin's moveset in the demo's. Then once we got Delphox, several jumped off the train due to not wanting another humanoid fire type, and Greninja being so much more awesome. What people don't realize though, is that every fire starter is humanoid (stands on two legs), even Typhlosion. It's one of those themes that never changes, such as the starter trio and the Pikachu expy.
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future.newyorker
Well-Known Member
Does wrestling count as a martial art? Especially dirty wrestling?
Let me clarify what he meant by combat oriented. He means combat oriented as in a Physical Attacker. Delphox is clearly not a Physical Attacker, yet Blaziken, Infernape, Emboar, and now Litten3 are.
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
Let me clarify what he meant by combat oriented. He means combat oriented as in a Physical Attacker. Delphox is clearly not a Physical Attacker, yet Blaziken, Infernape, Emboar, and now Litten3 are.
But all of them are mixed attackers rather than straight up physical. Except Emboar Who has the highest attack stat. But all Fire starters have good special attack stats.
future.newyorker
Well-Known Member
But all of them are mixed attackers rather than straight up physical. Except Emboar Who has the highest attack stat. But all Fire starters have good special attack stats.
A kicking chicken, a punching ape, a sumo pig, and a wrestling tiger all scream Physical by their looks.
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
A kicking chicken, a punching ape, a sumo pig, and a wrestling tiger all scream Physical by their looks.
What about a clawed dragon? To be honest a regular tiger could look just as a physical attacker as any of them. Tigers are physical fighters themselves.
A kicking chicken, a punching ape, a sumo pig, and a wrestling tiger all scream Physical by their looks.
I mean, how is all of that not awesome? Combine it with the lizard dragon, volcano furret/rat/whatever and witch fox and we have some really cool options.
goodpeople25
Well-Known Member
Honestly I wouldn't place any bets between fire/fighting and fire/dark, I think it pretty much undeniably has elements of both in it's design. (I'm definitely not denying it's dark elements though I think they are easier to overlook) You can have elements of a type and not be that type (which is required here since litten 3 is locked to fire and can only have 2 types) and I think it's too murky and subjective waters to really guess which one will be it's type.
Fighting I see precedent with toxicroak basically being poison/fighting/dark and learning 6 dark moves and one fighting move by level up, and I think that move, revenge has an argument for having dark elements to it as well depending on who uses it, yet it's fighting not dark type. And there's some move (ect) overlap with dark but then there's some overlap on the dark's side too (which is kinda interesting to think about with thier relationship) and there's always that we've had 3 fighting fire starters in a row and what they would do with that in mind which I think is really subjective and tricky waters to tread. EDIT: forgot the precedence of the types of the previous wrestlers we got
(Which at least some can be said to have heel elements in them through the dark type moves they learn like makuita's knock off and hawlucha's fling)
But as a final thing do people really not see any fighting type elements at all in Liften? When I see the implication of that that is what causes me to scratch my head on this.
Fighting I see precedent with toxicroak basically being poison/fighting/dark and learning 6 dark moves and one fighting move by level up, and I think that move, revenge has an argument for having dark elements to it as well depending on who uses it, yet it's fighting not dark type. And there's some move (ect) overlap with dark but then there's some overlap on the dark's side too (which is kinda interesting to think about with thier relationship) and there's always that we've had 3 fighting fire starters in a row and what they would do with that in mind which I think is really subjective and tricky waters to tread. EDIT: forgot the precedence of the types of the previous wrestlers we got
(Which at least some can be said to have heel elements in them through the dark type moves they learn like makuita's knock off and hawlucha's fling)
But as a final thing do people really not see any fighting type elements at all in Liften? When I see the implication of that that is what causes me to scratch my head on this.
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I mean, how is all of that not awesome? Combine it with the lizard dragon, volcano furret/rat/whatever and witch fox and we have some really cool options.
Because 4 of those 7 are either fighting types or look like they should be a fighting type, which is the case with Luchalitten (both Hawlucha and Hariyama are based on wrestlers, and are fighting types).
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
Honestly I wouldn't place any bets between fire/fighting and fire/dark, I think it pretty much undeniably has elements of both in it's design. (I'm definitely not denying it's dark elements though I think they are easier to overlook) You can have elements of a type and not be that type (which is required here since litten 3 is locked to fire and can only have 2 types) and I think it's too murky and subjective waters to really guess which one will be it's type.
Fighting I see precedent with toxicroak basically being poison/fighting/dark and learning 6 dark moves and one fighting move by level up, and I think that move, revenge has an argument for having dark elements to it as well depending on who uses it, yet it's fighting not dark type. And there's some move (ect) overlap with dark but then there's some overlap on the dark's side too (which is kinda interesting to think about with thier relationship) and there's always that we've had 3 fighting fire starters in a row and what they would do with that in mind which I think is really subjective and tricky waters to tread.
But as a final thing do people really not see any fighting type elements at all in Liften? When I see the implication of that that is what causes me to scratch my head on this.
I really don't see that much elements of Fighting other than just wrestler. But it's his menacing look and overall dark nature just says Dark to me. Not to mention the concepts say it loving to cheat and fight dirty lean more towards Dark typing.
Because 4 of those 7 are either fighting types or look like they should be a fighting type, which is the case with Luchalitten (both Hawlucha and Hariyama are based on wrestlers, and are fighting types).
Sumo is much different mind you, but Luchadors are in the realms of pro wrestling. But Litten is a heel, it doesn't wrestle fairly like the others, it'll pull out illegal moves and dirty tricks to win, like it's Dark type relatives. They are brutal and crude. A real brute. That's what makes it different.
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I really don't see that much elements of Fighting other than just wrestler.
And pretty much every Pokemon related to wrestling in some way has been Fighting. Machamp is a wrestler, as is Hariyama, Throh, Emboar, and Hawlucha... All fighting types.
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
And pretty much every Pokemon related to wrestling in some way has been Fighting. Machamp is a wrestler, as is Hariyama, Throh, Emboar, and Hawlucha... All fighting types.
Throh is Judo, also read my edit.
Honestly I wouldn't place any bets between fire/fighting and fire/dark, I think it pretty much undeniably has elements of both in it's design. (I'm definitely not denying it's dark elements though I think they are easier to overlook) You can have elements of a type and not be that type (which is required here since litten 3 is locked to fire and can only have 2 types) and I think it's too murky and subjective waters to really guess which one will be it's type.
Fighting I see precedent with toxicroak basically being poison/fighting/dark and learning 6 dark moves and one fighting move by level up, and I think that move, revenge has an argument for having dark elements to it as well depending on who uses it, yet it's fighting not dark type. And there's some move (ect) overlap with dark but then there's some overlap on the dark's side too (which is kinda interesting to think about with thier relationship) and there's always that we've had 3 fighting fire starters in a row and what they would do with that in mind which I think is really subjective and tricky waters to tread.
But as a final thing do people really not see any fighting type elements at all in Liften? When I see the implication of that that is what causes me to scratch my head on this.
It's a wrestler. No one is denieing the fighting-type aspects of it. But it's descriptions, art and supposed origin overlaps with dark-type.
People know it's a heel wrestler. It spits embers into opponents faces, punches their throats, possible uses hardened "shirt" and so on. Those things go to make the heel a villain. An "evil" to be defeated by the faces (The faces being Blaziken, Infernape and Emboar). With the knowledge that Dark-type is depicted as "Evil-type" in Japan most people assume, and I agree, that being Fire/Dark makes more sense.
While it's true that Toxicroak does seem to break this, we could chalk it up to an exception, since it's the only "evil" Fighting-Type.
mapachatumbili
Pokenerd
No I definitely see a hint of fighting elements in Litten. There are lots of Pokmeon like you clarified that can have elements of another type even if they aren't that type. Take Charizard for instance. Until Pokemon X, Charizard was seen as a psuedo dragon. It was a Dragon in everything but official typing (had a lot of moves that Dragon types got, and is even in the Dragon breeding group). I don't mind the fighting elements in Litten 3, I just don't want the official typing of fighting in Litten.
If Litten 3 is meant to be a dirty fighter in the same vein as Scrafty, then a couple of fighting moves can be thrown in, stuff like Submission, Karate Chop, or Low Kick. But then throw in some other moves that look brutal and cheap such as Sand attack, Heavy Slam, Earth Power, and Knock Off. Litten 3 is similar to Lycanroc Moon form in that it loves to fight, and might look like a brutal fighter, but isn't a fighting type.
Or a really good attack for Litten 3 would be Choke, which is in the same vein as double slap or horn attack. Hits multiple times.
If Litten 3 is meant to be a dirty fighter in the same vein as Scrafty, then a couple of fighting moves can be thrown in, stuff like Submission, Karate Chop, or Low Kick. But then throw in some other moves that look brutal and cheap such as Sand attack, Heavy Slam, Earth Power, and Knock Off. Litten 3 is similar to Lycanroc Moon form in that it loves to fight, and might look like a brutal fighter, but isn't a fighting type.
Or a really good attack for Litten 3 would be Choke, which is in the same vein as double slap or horn attack. Hits multiple times.
knightwolf09
Well-Known Member
Villainous or not it's still a wrestler... Do the six pack abs ala Machamp not scream Fighting to you?
Samurott is a samurai, doesn't that scream Fighting? Beartic is big an burly, shouldn't it be Fighting type too? Mega Swampert has big muscles, yet it's not Fighting either. Muscles don't immediately make a pokemon Fighting.
future.newyorker
Well-Known Member
Samurott is a samurai, doesn't that scream Fighting? Beartic is big an burly, shouldn't it be Fighting type too? Mega Swampert has big muscles, yet it's not Fighting either. Muscles don't immediately make a pokemon Fighting.
Nothing about Samurott or Beartic even remotely suggest fighting. But can this argument die already? It already happened a while back with the end result being everyone's agreement on the fact that in some way, every Pokémon should be part fighting.
mapachatumbili
Pokenerd
The Machamp line I find interesting. As far as a fighting type goes, I really only saw Machop as being a martial artist. Machoke and Machamp I really just saw more as "bodybuilders". Bodybuilding isn't considered a martial art. Its an art form yes, but its not designed to attack or defend.
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