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Starter Discussion & Thread

What is you favorite Sun & Moon starter?

  • Rowlet

    Votes: 467 43.2%
  • Litten

    Votes: 343 31.8%
  • Popplio

    Votes: 270 25.0%

  • Total voters
    1,080
Status
Not open for further replies.

john90

Well-Known Member
Come to think of it, have grass pokemon in GENERAL been speedsters? Not to mention a point was brought up at Smogon that the sniper conceit may be why Decidueye's speed is on the low side. The idea behind sniping is to prepare carefully, THEN attack. No sniper worth their salt is in a hurry. Remember that, to use Magic: The Gathering fandom terminology, GameFreak designs primarily along Vorthos lines, even if Spike's been gaining momentum lately. Plus they're more worried about doubles than singles, usually. I haven't looked in on doubles, though, so I've little idea if speed is as much of a king stat there.

Anyway, I'm not about to rule out Decidueye yet. Chesnaught is sluggish, and has a pretty fair complement of weaknesses, but still sits pretty in UU with the ability to make occasional forays into OU. (...Um, we're not in the OU-or-nothing mentality, are we?)

I think the grass starter has always received the best threatment in stats terms. There's a lot of variety among grass starters: Serperior and Sceptile are both really fast, but one is a sweeper, the other a defensive pokemon. Venusaur and Meganium are medium fast but one is a special wall the other is a mixed wall. Torterra and Chesnaught are both pretty slow with the first being a strong physical attacker with great bulk and the other being a physical defensive and attacking. I mean there are a lot of choises among grass starters. The problem of the grass starter is that Grass is not a great type while Fire and Water are.
Charizard and Thyplosion are basically the same pokemon. Speed Boost Blaziken and Infernape are basically the same pokemon. Delphox is basically Charizard/Thyplosion with more sp. def and less attack.
Emboar is the only peculiar fire starter.
Blastoise is defensive and mixed. Feraligatr is a physical attacker/defensive, Swampert is a bulky physical attacker, Empoleon is a special attacker/defensive, Samurott is a slow mixed attacker. Greninja is a fast mixed attacker. More variety but except for Greninja they are all slow.
 
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knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
Sounds like two different types of speed, to me. Speed of attack vs. speed of foot. Decidueye's speed conceit seems to be the former. (Remember that this is SPECIFICALLY a sniper. Not a longbowman or the like who's trained to hail arrows along with many other bowmen--and generally don't conceal themselves from sight, relying instead on battlements.)

EDIT: Just so we're clear...Expecting Decidueye to be Talonflame Mk. II would be ignoring their real-life inspirations. Owls aren't nearly as fast as falcons, flying or diving (and I don't think owls can soar). What owls ARE is a lot quieter. That's how they catch their prey, not by sheer speed, but by silent ambush. You don't need speed when you can't be detected reliably.

I don't want it to be Talonflame fast. Why does everyone think wanting it to be faster equals Talonflame or Greninja levels of speed?
 

Skyknight

Active Member
I don't want it to be Talonflame fast. Why does everyone think wanting it to be faster equals Talonflame or Greninja levels of speed?

Nn, I noticed someone making the Talonflame comparison, so...I'd guess people are thinking that being good REQUIRES sky-high speed. I'm worried that that's over-valorizing the speed stat. (Then again, you're talking to someone who'd prefer to use Torrent Greninja rather than Protean, just so the typings remain stable and the type defenses stay interlocking.)

The question becomes, what speed level is necessary for Grass/Ghost to be viable? (No, I don't know myself.)
 
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knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
Nn, I noticed someone making the Talonflame comparison, so...I suppose the question becomes, what speed level is necessary for Grass/Ghost to be viable? (No, I don't know myself.)

I just want it to be in the 90s. It's decent enough. It just baffles me that an owl is potentially slower than a seal on land.
 
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clbgolden12

Alolan (and soon to be Galarian) trainer
I'm surprised that Decidueye is looking to be slow. I mean, I don't want Greninja or Talonflame levels of fast, but something around the 80s would've been nice...
 

Skyknight

Active Member
Looking at the grass starters, one thing I've noticed is that usually, between stages 2 and 3, base stats all go up by an even 20. The main exceptions are Serperior (HP and attacks only go up by 15, to account for speed shooting up by 30; just remember that Snivy and Servine were already on the speedy side themselves) and Chesnaught (HP and physical stats went over +20 at the cost of the other stats; speed only went up from Quilladin by 7). So I'm not exactly holding my breath for a speedster Decidueye. But let's see what else it has before deciding it's bad just because it's both slow and holding five weaknesses, shall we?

(I know, it doesn't sound auspicious when I phrase it that way...)
 

XXD17

Draco rex
I'm surprised that Decidueye is looking to be slow. I mean, I don't want Greninja or Talonflame levels of fast, but something around the 80s would've been nice...

Pretty sure incineroar is going to be the fast one...hopefully it won't completely make houndoom obsolete...is base 80 considered "slow" (like golem) or "slower" (like blaziken or lucario)? It seems like incineroar will be the glass cannon (sceptile, greninja, etc), decidueye will be the balanced 'mon (samurott, venusaur, etc) and hopefully primarina will be the slow defensive one (swampert, empoleon, etc)
 

PrinceOfFacade

Ghost-Type Master
I say Primarina will be the popular one via how good it may be competitively while Incineroar will be the one pushed by The Pokémon Company the most, it looks like it'll be the most marketed (Litten) out if the three starters.

I don't think competitive viability plays that much a role in the overall popularity of a pokemon.

It's mostly appearance, marketing potential, and overall appeal. Greninja and Lucario both have huge "cool factor" appeal and well loved designs. Plus, their personalities make them very marketable, Lucario especially.

I think Jangmo-o is also going to become a rather popular pokemon, along with Mimikyu, Lycanroc, and Pedobear Bewear.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
No reason why it can't still be in the 80's. Didn't someone earlier post a comparison to the other middle stage evolutions, and Dartrix matched up with Combusken? And Blaziken also has base 80 speed, so...

I'm with the people who say it's too early to completely dismiss Decidueye. For all we know, it could have an amazing HA or a good movepool that saves it.
 

Skyknight

Active Member
I don't think competitive viability plays that much a role in the overall popularity of a pokemon.

It's mostly appearance, marketing potential, and overall appeal. Greninja and Lucario both have huge "cool factor" appeal and well loved designs. Plus, their personalities make them very marketable, Lucario especially.

I think Jangmo-o is also going to become a rather popular pokemon, along with Mimikyu, Lycanroc, and Pedobear Bewear.

Well, Greninja and Lucario both have a lithe look, at least. But I'm not entirely sure what "coolness" consists of. After all, Charizard seems to be deemed "cool", but I don't find the design that appealing. No, "fire dragon" is NOT instantly appealing to me. (Now, "lightning dragon"...Zekrom doesn't count, sorry.)

I will confess that my main hope starters-wise isn't about the G7 ones. I'm just hoping that Chesnaught gets Drain Punch as an egg move (at the very least, it would be able to inherit off Mienshao). I suppose that helps explain why I'm keeping such a close eye on Decidueye (despite planning to go with Litten for my initial starter); the possibility that it'll supplant Chesnaught as my grass starter of choice, and possibly redeem the Grass/Ghost combination (great hopes for Trevenant, I had).
 

john90

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure incineroar is going to be the fast one...hopefully it won't completely make houndoom obsolete...is base 80 considered "slow" (like golem) or "slower" (like blaziken or lucario)? It seems like incineroar will be the glass cannon (sceptile, greninja, etc), decidueye will be the balanced 'mon (samurott, venusaur, etc) and hopefully primarina will be the slow defensive one (swampert, empoleon, etc)

Now is Incineroar the one that will become Greninja? You people cannot look at pokemon without comparing them to Greninja, right? Remember that the only reason we had to think that Litten has huge speed was that it outspeeded Rowlet. Now we can assume that outspeeding Rowlet is not that incredible, so it's always possible that Litten speed line will go this way: 65-->80-->100 like Charizard or Typlhosion. Please don't make the same mistake people have made with Decydueye, cause that only brings hate with no reason.
 

Huckleberry

Poison Trainer
Now is Incineroar the one that will become Greninja? You people cannot look at pokemon without comparing them to Greninja, right? Remember that the only reason we had to think that Litten has huge speed was that it outspeeded Rowlet. Now we can assume that outspeeding Rowlet is not that incredible, so it's always possible that Litten speed line will go this way: 65-->80-->100 like Charizard or Typlhosion. Please don't make the same mistake people have made with Decydueye, cause that only brings hate with no reason.

You're kinda putting words in XXD17's mouth here. He didn't say Incineroar would be Greninja, he just said that he thinks Incineroar will be the fastest of the three starters, he also mentioned Sceptile in the same breath.
 

john90

Well-Known Member
You're kinda putting words in XXD17's mouth here. He didn't say Incineroar would be Greninja, he just said that he thinks Incineroar will be the fastest of the three starters, he also mentioned Sceptile in the same breath.

He did mention the only starters who have more the 120 base speed. Also Charizard is the fastest of gen 1 starters. What I meant is that while we can probably say Incineroar will be the fastest, we have no proof to say that its speed will be over 100. I would like people to accept this possbility so they won't blame it for nothing if it has 100 base speed
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
People only compare to Greninja because there's always a glass cannon starter in every generation, and Greninja happens to be the one from last generation and a very popular Pokemon at that. It has nothing to do with Greninja itself. Can we stop bringing him up?

On another note, I'm just surprised at how powerful Primarina seems so far. Bulky, great typing, seemingly good Sp. Atk, possibly a move that acts as a dual Reflect/Light Screen... it all seems too good to be true. As much as I love Primarina, there has to be a catch to this thing. Like, lousy stat distribution, shallow movepool, lousy HA, etc. It seems almost too good to be true.

Of course, I don't know much about competitive play, so I dunno...
 

kawaiiconcept

TOP OF THE MORNIN'
People only compare to Greninja because there's always a glass cannon starter in every generation, and Greninja happens to be the one from last generation and a very popular Pokemon at that. It has nothing to do with Greninja itself. Can we stop bringing him up?

On another note, I'm just surprised at how powerful Primarina seems so far. Bulky, great typing, seemingly good Sp. Atk, possibly a move that acts as a dual Reflect/Light Screen... it all seems too good to be true. As much as I love Primarina, there has to be a catch to this thing. Like, lousy stat distribution, shallow movepool, lousy HA, etc. It seems almost too good to be true.

Of course, I don't know much about competitive play, so I dunno...

same though
thats kinda why I stop posting when the talk turns to stats
 

Gohankuten

Well-Known Member
The leaker has posted a pic of Decidueye's stats now from level-up so someone can extrapolate a base stat range for it.

https://i.redd.it/2wvk65ncdawx.png
 
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