Starter Discussion & Thread

[Dragalge]

Archers have never been always portrayed as being very speedy I believe so it makes sense that Decidueye isn't all that swift to begin with imo. I do wish Torracat didn't lose its Speed upon evolving but even then, I heard Incineroar is still find due to its bulk and movepool. It would love Intimidate to help its physical bulk even more. As for Primarina, Boomburst would have been amazing with Liquid Voice as well.

 

[Adrexus]

What bugs about the final evolution alolan starters is that they are sooooooo slow. Decidueye is the fastest with a base 70 speed.

I have a theory that Gamefreak accidently switched Decidueye's Sp. Defense and Speed stats because this is the first generation where there is no starter with at least 100 base speed. Decidueye is the most frail-looking out of all of the final evolutions so it makes sense that it's stat spread would be high offensive stats and low defensive stats.

If not Decidueye being fast than Incineroar should have at least been as fast as Torracat. If Incineroar swapped its Sp. Defense and Speed stats then it would be as fast as Torracat.

Primarina can stay slow because it has a pretty nice stat spread. The problem is it's shallow movepool.

The only instance I can ever recall GF accidentally switching anything was the soul and marsh badges for their respective leaders in the generation 1 games. If they did accidentally do that, I think they would have said something by now.

 

[Ophie]

Archers have never been always portrayed as being very speedy I believe so it makes sense that Decidueye isn't all that swift to begin with imo. I do wish Torracat didn't lose its Speed upon evolving but even then, I heard Incineroar is still find due to its bulk and movepool. It would love Intimidate to help its physical bulk even more. As for Primarina, Boomburst would have been amazing with Liquid Voice as well.

Another thing is that Incineroar is based on a heel-type pro wrestler, who aren't exactly known for their speed. If anything, Primarina would be the one most likely to get a high speed, as sirens are supposed to be fast underwater, but Primarina really doesn't need it.

I think what causes people to think Decidueye would be fast (and I thought so too) are Decidueye's thin frame and how he spends time among tree branches. It gets people thinking about that whole Naruto-style branch-leaping or some form of agility that Decidueye frankly wouldn't really use as an archer.

 

[Akashin]

I think what causes people to think Decidueye would be fast (and I thought so too) are Decidueye's thin frame and how he spends time among tree branches. It gets people thinking about that whole Naruto-style branch-leaping or some form of agility that Decidueye frankly wouldn't really use as an archer.

I recall people taking the official site referring to Decidueye's speed as an indication that it would be fast in-game as well, too.

 

[Isaac52]

Intimidate is cool and all but I wish he got a new ability something where he gets fight stab. They did it to Dhelmise for Steel so they could have done something here.

Wouldn't stab be kind of broken?

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

Wouldn't stab be kind of broken?

On a already severally mediocre Pokémon? Not even remotely.

 

[chosen-one]

What bugs about the final evolution alolan starters is that they are sooooooo slow. Decidueye is the fastest with a base 70 speed.

I have a theory that Gamefreak accidently switched Decidueye's Sp. Defense and Speed stats because this is the first generation where there is no starter with at least 100 base speed. Decidueye is the most frail-looking out of all of the final evolutions so it makes sense that it's stat spread would be high offensive stats and low defensive stats.

If not Decidueye being fast than Incineroar should have at least been as fast as Torracat. If Incineroar swapped its Sp. Defense and Speed stats then it would be as fast as Torracat.

Primarina can stay slow because it has a pretty nice stat spread. The problem is it's shallow movepool.

The reason why there is always at least one fast starter, one more tanky and another mixed is to give more choice to the player, since each could be inclined by own style itself, now GF completely left that aside to lean for a Totally slow Meta and tanky, I personally think that GF is doing something wrong, in fact all the hype I had for the new mons it was finally left with nothing to see the junk stats and not just the starters, all the complete generation. I mean, how many sweeper are there in this generation?
Unfortunately my battle style is very focused on sweepers leaving other styles aside by my own choice.
Well finally my choice is to wait the new updates to see if GF is going to change something, otherwise I'm not going to invest my money in the game of this generation.

 

[gliscor&yanmega]

The reason why there is always at least one fast starter, one more tanky and another mixed is to give more choice to the player, since each could be inclined by own style itself, now GF completely left that aside to lean for a Totally slow Meta and tanky, I personally think that GF is doing something wrong, in fact all the hype I had for the new mons it was finally left with nothing to see the junk stats and not just the starters, all the complete generation. I mean, how many sweeper are there in this generation?
Unfortunately my battle style is very focused on sweepers leaving other styles aside by my own choice.
Well finally my choice is to wait the new updates to see if GF is going to change something, otherwise I'm not going to invest my money in the game of this generation.

Don't see the issue in them wanting to expand the game so people don't think "Hit fast and hard". Not like those options don't exist in this Gen anyways, be it new or old Pokemon.

It adds more to the stragety to try and survive now and would only make things more intense instead of trying to knock things out with one or two hits most of the time.

 

[XXD17]

Don't see the issue in them wanting to expand the game so people don't think "Hit fast and hard". Not like those options don't exist in this Gen anyways, be it new or old Pokemon.

It adds more to the stragety to try and survive now and would only make things more intense instead of trying to knock things out with one or two hits most of the time.

The only issue I have with that is that this strategy does nothing for these new Pokémon since the old style is so effective (that's why it's meta)...just go online and go a few rounds...you don't see any of these starters very much. Occasionally, you'll see a primarina, but that's about it. What do you see then? You may ask. Mega salamence, garchomp 'mons like that. The tried and true 'mons that followed the old method. Even the most popular new 'mons (tapus, ultra beasts, etc) fit the hit hard and hit fast model.

 

[gliscor&yanmega]

The only issue I have with that is that this strategy does nothing for these new Pokémon since the old style is so effective (that's why it's meta)...just go online and go a few rounds...you don't see any of these starters very much. Occasionally, you'll see a primarina, but that's about it. What do you see then? You may ask. Mega salamence, garchomp 'mons like that. The tried and true 'mons that followed the old method. Even the most popular new 'mons (tapus, ultra beasts, etc) fit the hit hard and hit fast model.

There are at least some attempts by Gamefreak to try and restrict certain Pokemon by banning certain things or allowing special rules for people to use. There's also tiers that people can manually deal with. There's ways around it all so you can use something a little differently if you want. If you don't then...that's too bad(Or not if you don't really care which I imagine is probably the case for most people).

When it comes down to it, there's a bunch of different potential people can do for online play, but the fanbase usually just sticks with the same stuff.

Personally, I enjoy using a vast variety of different methods to battle. So having the Starters(And a bulk of Gen 7) being slow is something nice for a change, allows for more interesting sets.

 

[lemoncatpower]

The only issue I have with that is that this strategy does nothing for these new Pokémon since the old style is so effective (that's why it's meta)...just go online and go a few rounds...you don't see any of these starters very much. Occasionally, you'll see a primarina, but that's about it. What do you see then? You may ask. Mega salamence, garchomp 'mons like that. The tried and true 'mons that followed the old method. Even the most popular new 'mons (tapus, ultra beasts, etc) fit the hit hard and hit fast model.

Decidueye:
Hp 78->78
Att 107->107
Def 75-> 75
SpA 100-> 70
SpD 100-> 100
Sp 70-> 100

Incineroar:
HP 95->95
Att 115->115
Def 90->90
SpA 80->80
SpD 90->65
Sp 60->85

I think this is how their stats should have been.
I will give explanations, which are nothing to do with metagame, it's to do with design.

I think Decidueye wouldn't have as much SpA as he is an Archer and excels at going through trees without being noticed, so his Speed should be quicker. Since he is an owl (owls=wise), I think his SpD should stay the same.
As for Incineroar, he is a heel wrestler and his entry states he is effected by kids watching him, I would think his SpD should be lowered as he is easily effected by others. He is a cat so I think he should be a little faster.
Primarina was totally fine with me though.


Any thoughts?

 

[Swordsman4]

What's the best nature for Rowlet? I really need a decent grass type for my Battle Tree team and I really love Decideye. Any suggestions for natures and stats?

 

[Mr. Reloaded]

What's the best nature for Rowlet? I really need a decent grass type for my Battle Tree team and I really love Decideye. Any suggestions for natures and stats?

Item: leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD)
Careful / Impish Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Spirit Shackle
- Defog / Leaf Blade / Toxic

Don't use Swords Dance lol, there are so many better Pokémon with that.

 

[goodpeople25]

The only issue I have with that is that this strategy does nothing for these new Pokémon since the old style is so effective (that's why it's meta)...just go online and go a few rounds...you don't see any of these starters very much. Occasionally, you'll see a primarina, but that's about it. What do you see then? You may ask. Mega salamence, garchomp 'mons like that. The tried and true 'mons that followed the old method. Even the most popular new 'mons (tapus, ultra beasts, etc) fit the hit hard and hit fast model.

Okay, sure in that regard I see your point. But online isn't the only judge, I've definitely had a different experience playing the game so far and for me starters play a big role in my playing. Never mind private more casual battles which still have the possibility to exist.

 

[XXD17]

There are at least some attempts by Gamefreak to try and restrict certain Pokemon by banning certain things or allowing special rules for people to use. There's also tiers that people can manually deal with. There's ways around it all so you can use something a little differently if you want. If you don't then...that's too bad(Or not if you don't really care which I imagine is probably the case for most people).

When it comes down to it, there's a bunch of different potential people can do for online play, but the fanbase usually just sticks with the same stuff.

Personally, I enjoy using a vast variety of different methods to battle. So having the Starters(And a bulk of Gen 7) being slow is something nice for a change, allows for more interesting sets.

That's all and good, but it makes me feel like a lot of the new Pokémon are overshadowed this gen. Just an an example, the terrain strategy was actually meant for last gen. Did anyone use it? No. It only became prevalent because Gamefreak made them borderline OP by attaching them to Pokémon that follow the tried and true strategy. I have no issue with a more eclectic mix, but shouldn't a new gen emphasize the viability of its new Pokémon rather than bolster the old 'mons while adding a few new OP additions. Talonflame, mega mence, mega gardevoir, xerneas, sylveon, greninja are just a few new 'mons that peaked in sixth gen. Who peaked this gen outside of the ultra beasts? Tapus? Toxapex?

 

[Taodragon]

That's all and good, but it makes me feel like a lot of the new Pokémon are overshadowed this gen. Just an an example, the terrain strategy was actually meant for last gen. Did anyone use it? No. It only became prevalent because Gamefreak made them borderline OP by attaching them to Pokémon that follow the tried and true strategy. I have no issue with a more eclectic mix, but shouldn't a new gen emphasize the viability of its new Pokémon rather than bolster the old 'mons while adding a few new OP additions. Talonflame, mega mence, mega gardevoir, xerneas, sylveon, greninja are just a few new 'mons that peaked in sixth gen. Who peaked this gen outside of the ultra beasts? Tapus? Toxapex?

I don't think it's fair to count Megas in this case since Gen 7 doesn't have an equivalent to those type of forms. With that said, Gen 6 really didn't have too many of its Pokémon peak themselves as we only had Sylveon (which did drop later), Greninja, Talonflame, Aegislash, and Volcanion out of the new Pokémon, with Mega Diancie and Hoopa-U joining them if you count their forms. That's only 7 new Pokémon in total that peaked, and a couple had to have forms come in for them and one didn't last the entire generation. By comparison, we have Toxapex, all four Tapus, six of the UBs, and Mimikyu, which makes up 12 new Pokémon that peaked with the new Generation, and while there may be shifts as with Sylveon (as I'm pretty sure at least Mimikyu will drop), that is still more then what Gen 6 had out of its exclusively new monsters.

I do see your point in that a lot of the Pokémon get overshadowed due to their different stat spreads relative to other generations, but I don't think Gen 6 is the best comparison as most of its new Pokémon also had trouble standing out on their own.

 

[chosen-one]

The only issue I have with that is that this strategy does nothing for these new Pokémon since the old style is so effective (that's why it's meta)...just go online and go a few rounds...you don't see any of these starters very much. Occasionally, you'll see a primarina, but that's about it. What do you see then? You may ask. Mega salamence, garchomp 'mons like that. The tried and true 'mons that followed the old method. Even the most popular new 'mons (tapus, ultra beasts, etc) fit the hit hard and hit fast model.

Exactly, if it's to bring balance to the game to have a bulky/tanky defensive Meta then they should nerf all pokemon that surpass 100 base speed just like Ninjask, Pheromosa, Accelgor, Ribombee, among others.

Decidueye:
Hp 78->78
Att 107->107
Def 75-> 75
SpA 100-> 70
SpD 100-> 100
Sp 70-> 100

Incineroar:
HP 95->95
Att 115->115
Def 90->90
SpA 80->80
SpD 90->65
Sp 60->85

I think this is how their stats should have been.
I will give explanations, which are nothing to do with metagame, it's to do with design.

I think Decidueye wouldn't have as much SpA as he is an Archer and excels at going through trees without being noticed, so his Speed should be quicker. Since he is an owl (owls=wise), I think his SpD should stay the same.
As for Incineroar, he is a heel wrestler and his entry states he is effected by kids watching him, I would think his SpD should be lowered as he is easily effected by others. He is a cat so I think he should be a little faster.
Primarina was totally fine with me though.


Any thoughts?

The following was extracted from the official website.

This Pokémon is able to move about while completely masking its presence from others. Once an opponent has lost sight of it, Decidueye seizes the chance to attack it unawares. In a tenth of a second, Decidueye plucks an arrow quill from within its wing and sends its hurtling toward its target. Its speed is astonishing, but not more so than its precise aim, which enables the arrow quill to pierce a target through and through from half a mile or more away! Decidueye usually acts very cool, but it can become terribly flustered in unexpected situations like a surprise attack.

Spirit Shackle is a Ghost-type physical move that only Decidueye can learn. An opponent hit with this move will become unable to flee from battle or switch out for an ally.

http://www.pokemon-sunmoon.com/en-us/pokemon/decidueye/

According to what it says here Decidueye is a pokemon that excels in three characteristics mainly in Precision, Speed and Physical Attack.
Physical attack for his arrows and his signature move Spirit Shackle is physical, not to mention that in the description of Rowlet mentions its "powerful kicks" and all this added to its hidden ability which focuses on avoiding the physical contact of these moves.
To me Decidueye's stats should have been:
Hp 78->78
Att 107->117
Def 75-> 75
SpA 100-> 70
SpD 100-> 80
Sp 70-> 110

 

[gliscor&yanmega]

That's all and good, but it makes me feel like a lot of the new Pokémon are overshadowed this gen. Just an an example, the terrain strategy was actually meant for last gen. Did anyone use it? No. It only became prevalent because Gamefreak made them borderline OP by attaching them to Pokémon that follow the tried and true strategy. I have no issue with a more eclectic mix, but shouldn't a new gen emphasize the viability of its new Pokémon rather than bolster the old 'mons while adding a few new OP additions. Talonflame, mega mence, mega gardevoir, xerneas, sylveon, greninja are just a few new 'mons that peaked in sixth gen. Who peaked this gen outside of the ultra beasts? Tapus? Toxapex?

If all people are going to do is follow the same strategy every gen than that's just going to make things stale. It makes more sense for them to try and break out of this stale state and try to get people to do some other stratgey and overall just make battles less about finish it quick and more about nail bitting thrills.

It doesn't matter in the end, unless they get strict with things it's just going to be the same deal as always. There's at least two sides to Pokemon that lets everything get used. Simply more potential that can be got out of that, just goes overlook.

 

[chosen-one]

If all people are going to do is follow the same strategy every gen than that's just going to make things stale. It makes more sense for them to try and break out of this stale state and try to get people to do some other stratgey and overall just make battles less about finish it quick and more about nail bitting thrills.

It doesn't matter in the end, unless they get strict with things it's just going to be the same deal as always. There's at least two sides to Pokemon that lets everything get used. Simply more potential that can be got out of that, just goes overlook.

If the idea is to have online battles that last more than 30 min then the online will begin to have serious AFC problem.

 

[XXD17]

If all people are going to do is follow the same strategy every gen than that's just going to make things stale. It makes more sense for them to try and break out of this stale state and try to get people to do some other stratgey and overall just make battles less about finish it quick and more about nail bitting thrills.

It doesn't matter in the end, unless they get strict with things it's just going to be the same deal as always. There's at least two sides to Pokemon that lets everything get used. Simply more potential that can be got out of that, just goes overlook.

Yeah...that's true...I just kind of wished that there would be more walls this gen considering that the majority are built to be lackluster offensive tanks (honestly the most effective item for the bulk of this gen is an AV, CB, or CSp)...only toxapex (and to a lesser extent cekesteela) really excels with its stat spreads and movepools while the others are easily picked off by standard offensive builds of old 'mons like mega salamence. For a good solid three weeks, I used nothing besides new 'mons and unless I brought pheremosa or scarfed xurkitree, mega mence destroyed my team every time no matter what team. TR, hyper offensive, stall, terrain abuse, etc. Especially with the t-wave NERF, it makes it even harder for slow offensive 'mons to shine. I mean I'm not an amazing battler, but I did much better last gen with 'mons like klefki, goodra, meowstic and mega lopunny

One Pokémon that I had more hope for was primarina actually. With its typing and movepool, it would have made a great stalling rest-talker...if it had stats like milotic's like I had hoped (and serene grace as HA)...in the end, it's again best used as an AV/ CSp tank albeit one of the better ones.

Speaking of T-wave Nerf though, I do believe that a lot of these new 'mons would see more play if the old T-wave was still in place though.