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Starters Discussion Thread v2

Who is your favorite starter?

  • Grass-type, Chespin

    Votes: 247 21.3%
  • Fire-type, Fennekin

    Votes: 328 28.3%
  • Water-type, Froakie

    Votes: 484 41.8%
  • None of the above. GOOMY!

    Votes: 100 8.6%

  • Total voters
    1,159
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Dragalge

Custom title: If specified, this will replace the
Delphox probably got hit the hardest by fan expectations really, everyone saw its initial form and jumped on it and expected all these imagined forms and designs that Delphox was never going to live up to them. Poor thing is still hurting while both Greninja and Chesnaught have rebounded.

Really? I have seen a ton of hate on Chesnaught as well, more so than Delphox.

Greninja also had its fair share of hate, mostly because of the tongue scarf.
 

BurningWhiteKyurem

Well-Known Member
There was hate, but it was outnumbered by the positive reaction from fans.

Delphox on the other hand, was like a train crash. You had fans that loved Fennekin and then Braixen was revealed which turned off some, but not as poorly received as Delphox.
 

Weavy

I come and go suddenly
Really? I have seen a ton of hate on Chesnaught as well, more so than Delphox.

Greninja also had its fair share of hate, mostly because of the tongue scarf.

Agreeing with this.

It's really sad that Chesnaught and Delphox are still being treated like dirt while Greninja hogs all the glory. While I have seen the fanbases for both growing a fair bit, they still get hate, while Greninja is treated like it's the best thing ever (Even with Protean, it's still frail). I personally love all three starters this generation, with Fennekin/Braxian/Delphox being my favourites. I think they all have some use somewhere along the line.

I'll love the day when Chesnaught and Delphox start getting liked and noticed a little more (though I'm probably dreaming at this point...)
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
Really? I have seen a ton of hate on Chesnaught as well, more so than Delphox.

Greninja also had its fair share of hate, mostly because of the tongue scarf.

As BurningWhiteKyurem said, both Greninja and Chesnaught's negative reaction is far outweighed by their positive ones, even initially when all three were revealed and the backlash was pouring in those two didn't get nearly as much hate as Delphox did. Overall, both have become popular after people have gotten used to their designs while poor Delphox is still crushed under the hate brought by the high expectations.
 
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Dragalge

Custom title: If specified, this will replace the
As BurningWhiteKyurem said, both Greninja and Chesnaught's negative reaction is far outweighed by their positive ones, even initially when all three were revealed and the backlash was pouring in those two didn't get nearly as much hate as Delphox did. Overall, both have become popular after people have gotten used to their designs while poor Delphox is still crushed under the hate brought by the high expectations.

Greninja maybe but I have yet to see more Chesnaught appreciation then depreciation.

Hasn't anyone seen the crap load of insults, specifically the Chesnaught + Bowser comparisons?

I like Chesnaught but as the poster above you said, it has been treated like Delphox even with being a little more liked than Quilladin.

plus the poll doesn't lie
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
Greninja maybe but I have yet to see more Chesnaught appreciation then depreciation.

Hasn't anyone seen the crap load of insults, specifically the Chesnaught + Bowser comparisons?

I like Chesnaught but as the poster above you said, it has been treated like Delphox even with being a little more liked than Quilladin.

plus the poll doesn't lie

And most of the places I've been to have had at least more love for him then hate, hell I barely even hear that comparison. Either way, it's a bit hard to rely on hearsay since we're dealing with different subsets of the fandom and opinions change depending on where you go.

Also, having the least on the poll doesn't make it hated (particularly due to all of the little variables that comes with polling), Reshiram has less then Zekrom on the Gen 5 poll but it's still popular. If we go by post, most users on here seem to have more love for it then hate.
 
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Joltik-Kid

Simple Takes & Truths
I think people look at Greninja's Speed and Hidden Ability and automatically think it'll rule where ever it's used. The sad reality is it's big movepool is geared more towards it's lesser Physical Attack, as it's only means of increasing it's stats is through the lowly Power-Up Punch while it's signature Attack is a Physical Move and it's as frail as a toothpick. Protean is fine for mind games, but it doesn't work unless you can mange to have your opponent hit you with a move you resist, because it's 72/67/71 defense slash line is mediocre to average at best. You take a big chunk from neutral hits and flat out faint from SE hits. Outside of the rare Shadow Sneak (which isn't worth carrying anyway), it's blown away by Mach Punch users and if it's used a move that doesn't resist Steel, Bullet Punch also hits it hard. In fact, Priority is one of the easiest ways of beating Greninja.

So really, I don't see why it should be deemed the best 6th gen starter by anyone...because it's got it's flaws just like the other two. With that, I think they're all equals in a way (yes, I did say Delphox is better served as an in game battler, but it's still pretty damn good because of that speed and special attack). I may like Chesnaught the most, but it's got it's own niche that makes it good and bad just like the other two
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
I think people look at Greninja's Speed and Hidden Ability and automatically think it'll rule where ever it's used. The sad reality is it's big movepool is geared more towards it's lesser Physical Attack, as it's only means of increasing it's stats is through the lowly Power-Up Punch while it's signature Attack is a Physical Move and it's as frail as a toothpick. Protean is fine for mind games, but it doesn't work unless you can mange to have your opponent hit you with a move you resist, because it's 72/67/71 defense slash line is mediocre to average at best. You take a big chunk from neutral hits and flat out faint from SE hits. Outside of the rare Shadow Sneak (which isn't worth carrying anyway), it's blown away by Mach Punch users and if it's used a move that doesn't resist Steel, Bullet Punch also hits it hard. In fact, Priority is one of the easiest ways of beating Greninja.

So really, I don't see why it should be deemed the best 6th gen starter by anyone...because it's got it's flaws just like the other two. With that, I think they're all equals in a way (yes, I did say Delphox is better served as an in game battler, but it's still pretty damn good because of that speed and special attack). I may like Chesnaught the most, but it's got it's own niche that makes it good and bad just like the other two

Firstly, it's not popular just by its competitive viability, otherwise Heatran would be the most popular 4th gen legendary aside from the box ones and Darkrai. Secondly, Protean is not for mind games, it's for blowing holes in your opponent and because of that it's more useable because that ability allows for it to be applied in more situations, allowing it to be a great late-game cleaner. It's fragile yes, but the power that comes with it allows for it to be a strong battler despite that flaw.

Chesnaught is great though, and its tank abilities along with Bulletproof give it a nice niche to work with, it just misses Drain Punch at the moment as Synthesis is not the most reliable option. Delphox, I really have to ask why it doesn't have at least Focus Blast...
 
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Räven Velish

black lives matter
Greninja maybe but I have yet to see more Chesnaught appreciation then depreciation.

Hasn't anyone seen the crap load of insults, specifically the Chesnaught + Bowser comparisons?

I like Chesnaught but as the poster above you said, it has been treated like Delphox even with being a little more liked than Quilladin.

plus the poll doesn't lie

Bowser and Chesnaught comparisons? BWAHAHAHA! Nintendo should make a Mario Pokemon crossover and they have to jump on Chespins.

I think people look at Greninja's Speed and Hidden Ability and automatically think it'll rule where ever it's used. The sad reality is it's big movepool is geared more towards it's lesser Physical Attack, as it's only means of increasing it's stats is through the lowly Power-Up Punch while it's signature Attack is a Physical Move and it's as frail as a toothpick. Protean is fine for mind games, but it doesn't work unless you can mange to have your opponent hit you with a move you resist, because it's 72/67/71 defense slash line is mediocre to average at best. You take a big chunk from neutral hits and flat out faint from SE hits. Outside of the rare Shadow Sneak (which isn't worth carrying anyway), it's blown away by Mach Punch users and if it's used a move that doesn't resist Steel, Bullet Punch also hits it hard. In fact, Priority is one of the easiest ways of beating Greninja.

So really, I don't see why it should be deemed the best 6th gen starter by anyone...because it's got it's flaws just like the other two. With that, I think they're all equals in a way (yes, I did say Delphox is better served as an in game battler, but it's still pretty damn good because of that speed and special attack). I may like Chesnaught the most, but it's got it's own niche that makes it good and bad just like the other two

Greninja isn't the best Pokemon in the entire universe, but he's certainly better than Chesnaught and Delphox. After all, the best starter is Goomy.
 

Joltik-Kid

Simple Takes & Truths
Firstly, it's not popular just by its competitive viability, otherwise Heatran would be the most popular 4th gen legendary aside from the box ones and Darkrai. Secondly, Protean is not for mind games, it's for blowing holes in your opponent and because of that it's more useable because that ability allows for it to be applied in more situations, allowing it to be a great late-game cleaner. It's fragile yes, but the power that comes with it allows for it to be a strong battler despite that flaw.

Chesnaught is great though, and its tank abilities along with Bulletproof give it a nice niche to work with, it just misses Drain Punch at the moment as Synthesis is not the most reliable option. Delphox, I really have to ask why it doesn't have at least Focus Punch...
I can't think of any other reason why people would like Greninja then... it's design is mehish. And people actually do abuse Darkrai usage in Ubers, it's just out-sped by a Pokemon most think it should counter (Mewtwo). As for punching holes, it punches them only in choice situations and only if it's carrying Life Orb (shortening it's lifespan even more) And what power? 95/103 isn't powerful, it's just good. The only reason it seems powerful is from the STAB, but if you come in on a resisted attack or even a neutral one, it hardly does anything. I know this from experience because I've used it on Showdown and currently use it as part of one of my competitive teams on my game. It needs hazards for it to be a real threat to your opponent.

Chesnaught at least knows what it's job is, which is to wall the hell out of T-Tar (even Ice Beam sets) and hardly care what MegaKanga throws it's way. It's not gonna beat Special attackers, it's gonna die just as quick as Greninja does if it's in Talonflame's presence, and well, it's a pretty darn good Spikes user. Spikey Shield is one of the best Signature moves and easily the best between the 3 Kalos starters. As for Delphox, tutors are it's only chance, but if Gengar still can't get Sludge Wave through TM, Focus Blast just is not gonna in it's movepool. It could get the inferior Signal Beam though...which is something
 

Torosiken

This is a title.
I think three of them got their equal in coolness.
To be honest, I wanted to use Fennekin at first but argue began to come when I saw the ninja evolution of Froakie.
And then I saw Chesnaught from the spoilers. It's a knight! I have things for warriors @_@
And Delphox is a magician,...
way to go fantasy starters... It was a hard choice.
In the end I chose Froakie because I can get Fennekin in the post-game. :/
I still wanted a Chespin, and later on I got them from my friend and wonder trade.
I love all three starters equally. I don't see why people are making fun of the starters- the final versions I mean. They're equally cool and awesome- in my point of view that is XD
 

Taodragon

Training Anaylst
I can't think of any other reason why people would like Greninja then... it's design is mehish. And people actually do abuse Darkrai usage in Ubers, it's just out-sped by a Pokemon most think it should counter (Mewtwo). As for punching holes, it punches them only in choice situations and only if it's carrying Life Orb (shortening it's lifespan even more) And what power? 95/103 isn't powerful, it's just good. The only reason it seems powerful is from the STAB, but if you come in on a resisted attack or even a neutral one, it hardly does anything. I know this from experience because I've used it on Showdown and currently use it as part of one of my competitive teams on my game. It needs hazards for it to be a real threat to your opponent.

Chesnaught at least knows what it's job is, which is to wall the hell out of T-Tar (even Ice Beam sets) and hardly care what MegaKanga throws it's way. It's not gonna beat Special attackers, it's gonna die just as quick as Greninja does if it's in Talonflame's presence, and well, it's a pretty darn good Spikes user. Spikey Shield is one of the best Signature moves and easily the best between the 3 Kalos starters. As for Delphox, tutors are it's only chance, but if Gengar still can't get Sludge Wave through TM, Focus Blast just is not gonna in it's movepool. It could get the inferior Signal Beam though...which is something

That's opinion (and a bias one at that), personally I like its design. As for the Darkrai thing, the point was competitive value=/=popularity as Heatran is far from the most popular legendary of its generation.

Anyway, OHKOing a Dragonite through Multiscale isn't powerful? 103 isn't that impressive on its own I'll admit, but getting STAB on anything is and that's the selling point. It's not meant to be a sweeper, it's something to come in after you've done some damage to the other team and clean up the mess with hard hits, and if it sees something it doesn't like it U-Turns out of there. On top of that, whether or not you like Life Orb, it makes its attacks very powerful to the point that even if it doesn't kill, it's leaving something of a dent in almost whatever it attacks aside from special walls. You are right Life Orb makes it even more fragile, but like you said, it doesn't survive much, better make the most out of KOing what it can with those STAB moves and leave those dents then U-turn out if something bad for it comes in. Even if you don't use a Life Orb, Expert Bert still boosts the power behind its attacks if you're going for abusing those SE hits.

I won't deny Greninja is overhyped, but to say it's simply not good is completely misguided. It definitely has a place in OU.

As for Spiky Shield I think you're overrating a bit, if a good player falls for it once, they'll try to avoid it from then on (or abuse its lowered success rate next turn), plus Chesnaught's Achilles Heel is Special attacks and I'd assume most players would try to abuse that weakness over Physical hits if it can be helped. Spiky Shield's better then Water Shuriken and Magical Flame, I'll agree to that, but I feel that there are better options for Chesnaught to run.

As for Delphox, it can get it next game, Klinklang got Wild Charge in B2W2 after missing it in BW. Having said that, hopefully tutors can give it some good moves to play around with a la Serperior back in Gen 5.
 
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Shraeder

It's Lit
I can't think of any other reason why people would like Greninja then... it's design is mehish. And people actually do abuse Darkrai usage in Ubers, it's just out-sped by a Pokemon most think it should counter (Mewtwo). As for punching holes, it punches them only in choice situations and only if it's carrying Life Orb (shortening it's lifespan even more) And what power? 95/103 isn't powerful, it's just good. The only reason it seems powerful is from the STAB, but if you come in on a resisted attack or even a neutral one, it hardly does anything. I know this from experience because I've used it on Showdown and currently use it as part of one of my competitive teams on my game. It needs hazards for it to be a real threat to your opponent.

Chesnaught at least knows what it's job is, which is to wall the hell out of T-Tar (even Ice Beam sets) and hardly care what MegaKanga throws it's way. It's not gonna beat Special attackers, it's gonna die just as quick as Greninja does if it's in Talonflame's presence, and well, it's a pretty darn good Spikes user. Spikey Shield is one of the best Signature moves and easily the best between the 3 Kalos starters. As for Delphox, tutors are it's only chance, but if Gengar still can't get Sludge Wave through TM, Focus Blast just is not gonna in it's movepool. It could get the inferior Signal Beam though...which is something

It's design is your opinion, most people seem to think that Greninja has the best design.

You must not be using Greninja properly because my competetive one destroys on Showdown. 122 Base Speed is great, and it's Special Attack is 1 Base Stat lower than Infernape's. Plus, Protean gives it STAB on every single attack it uses, doing 1.5 Base damge no matter what.

Gengar also tends to carry Dazzling Gleam, so Chesnaught would still get KO'd in at most 2 hits by Gengar. Plus, 6 weaknesses is not good for a Defensively oriented Pokemon, and with Talonflame running around Chesnaught is less viable.

Greninja will most likely end up in OU, while Chesnaught will end up in UU at most.
 

Ib4

Xenlon Cavalier
Both of you are correct. Greninja has certainly viable (though not fantastic) attack/special attack stats and ouspeeds almost anything, but it crumbles unless it has a type resistance to any solid attack. Greninja makes other "glass cannons" seem bulky. Chesnaught has more well-rounded stats but won't be outspeeding much. Its numerous weaknesses are no laughing matter either, but despite that its survivability is better than Greninja's. Greninja also has an undeniably superior ability that when combined with a diverse move pool and/or the right items can wreak havoc. Both Chesnaught and Greninja have their uses. However Greninja is probably more likely to be used because if you need a Fighting/Grass type Breloom and Virizion are possibly more useful. Gyarados (and its mega form) might be used over Greninja, but there are lots of other megas available. Greninja is also probably going to be used over Sharpedo or Crawdaunt. Of course its type-changing enables it to be on a team with another Water/Dark type, while it is unlikely someone will run multiple Grass/Fighting types on a team. So Greninja is more specialized in its position and at the top of its particular type combo class; That plus its ability means it will likely be used more often than Chesnaught. And personally I like Chesnaught's look and I would like Greninja if it weren't for its tongue scarf.
 

Rio!

Composer
I can't think of any other reason why people would like Greninja then... it's design is mehish. And people actually do abuse Darkrai usage in Ubers, it's just out-sped by a Pokemon most think it should counter (Mewtwo). As for punching holes, it punches them only in choice situations and only if it's carrying Life Orb (shortening it's lifespan even more) And what power? 95/103 isn't powerful, it's just good. The only reason it seems powerful is from the STAB, but if you come in on a resisted attack or even a neutral one, it hardly does anything. I know this from experience because I've used it on Showdown and currently use it as part of one of my competitive teams on my game. It needs hazards for it to be a real threat to your opponent.

Chesnaught at least knows what it's job is, which is to wall the hell out of T-Tar (even Ice Beam sets) and hardly care what MegaKanga throws it's way. It's not gonna beat Special attackers, it's gonna die just as quick as Greninja does if it's in Talonflame's presence, and well, it's a pretty darn good Spikes user. Spikey Shield is one of the best Signature moves and easily the best between the 3 Kalos starters. As for Delphox, tutors are it's only chance, but if Gengar still can't get Sludge Wave through TM, Focus Blast just is not gonna in it's movepool. It could get the inferior Signal Beam though...which is something

When it comes down to it, it depends on opinion and personal preference based on what the player needs them to do. /shrug.
Hopefully Delfphox and Chestnaut get something potentially new via Move tutors next game.
 

Mega Missingno

Active Member
I don't understand why people hate on Delphox. It just plain looks better, over greninja- who admittedly looks kind of cool, but has a freaky tongue scarf. Body parts being used as fashion accessories is just weird, I'm sorry. And then Chestnaut who just looks like some hairy Santa furry who had his sleigh crash on a mario kart course and fused with Bowser
 

rocky505

Well-Known Member
People hate Delphox because it wasn't what they wanted and it is the worst of the 3 competitively.
 

Rio!

Composer
I don't understand why people hate on Delphox. It just plain looks better, over greninja- who admittedly looks kind of cool, but has a freaky tongue scarf. Body parts being used as fashion accessories is just weird, I'm sorry. And then Chestnaut who just looks like some hairy Santa furry who had his sleigh crash on a mario kart course and fused with Bowser

Once again, your OPINION. Everyone feel differently about the designs, which is all it boils down to.
Not so sure why that's so difficult for some people to grasp. XD
 

dirkac

I smash your Boxes.
Once again, your OPINION. Everyone feel differently about the designs, which is all it boils down to.
Not so sure why that's so difficult for some people to grasp. XD

While I personally like Delphox' design infinitely kver Greninja or (ugh) Chesnaught, I can't deny that Delphox is the worst in the Competetive scene out of the three Starters, which is part of it's dislike.

Furthermore, I guess people were just expecting that thing called Fan-Art that apparently people like, and Delphox was just too drastically different from them.
 

Rio!

Composer
While I personally like Delphox' design infinitely kver Greninja or (ugh) Chesnaught, I can't deny that Delphox is the worst in the Competetive scene out of the three Starters, which is part of it's dislike.

Furthermore, I guess people were just expecting that thing called Fan-Art that apparently people like, and Delphox was just too drastically different from them.
I do admit to feeling the same, pretty much. XD
One would think people would learn to take new information surrounding a new game/gen with a grain of salt, but as usual...o3o
 
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