Strongest Gym leader in the anime so far

[AJ97]

Bea is a GL a player has to face in the game prior to Raihan (she's technically the 3rd best Galar League NPC, alongside Allister), that might be the case in the anime as well...



She lost to Alain... She's the only E4 member introduced to lose to a conference trainer...

Ash also held off his own against Leon and Agatha (only pointing to Pikachu matches, so Greninja vs. Gardevoir doesn't count)... I think the Pikachu who fought Grapploct was reset somewhere between Post-zapped BW Pikachu and XY Finals Pikachu...

1. Bea is not the third-best Galar League NPC Along with Allister. We only know that she defeats Gordie. We only know that she defeated Gordie before her match with us. For all you know, Pier's might have defeated her considering the fact that it was stated that he gave trouble to Raihan despite not using Dynamax. There is no ranking order in the games. All the gym leaders are randomly matched.

Plus I don't understand why people are hyping Bea so much when she tied with an Ash using Pikachu and his newly captured Riolu. Pikachu is shown to be very inconsistent. The Pikachu which tied with a Latios lost to a Snivy used by a rookie trainer in Unova. At the same time, Riolu is a new pokemon that managed to tie with Grappaloct. If anything Bea is on the same level as Ash or probably slightly better at max which is nowhere close to elite four-tier.

2. Ash didn't hold his own against Leon and Agatha. He lost both battles and barely gave Agatha or Leon any trouble. There is a reason why I didn't mention the Alain vs Siebold battle and only mentioned the Alain vs Steven battle. Alain was much weaker when he first fought Siebold. Alain had gotten much stronger when he challenged Steven and his Charizard didn't lose and was in decent shape when the battle was interrupted.


3. Malva being the only Elite four trainer who lost to a regular trainer shouldn't be used to demean Malva's strength. It should be used to indicate how strong Alain really is. Technically only his Charizard. The rest of his team isn't as strong.

This is a guy who was challenging every trainer with a Mega Evolution with just his Charizard(Including the elite four members and champions). And when he heard about Ash entering the Kalos League, he probably swept through all the gyms with just his Charizard based on his battle with Korrina and performance in the League. Even in the Pokemon League, he was sweeping through most of his matches with just his Charizard.

His Charizard has been trained very well.

 

[LucasMV]

Plus I don't understand why people are hyping Bea so much when she tied with an Ash using Pikachu and his newly captured Riolu. Pikachu is shown to be very inconsistent. The Pikachu which tied with a Latios lost to a Snivy used by a rookie trainer in Unova. At the same time, Riolu is a new pokemon that managed to tie with Grappaloct. If anything Bea is on the same level as Ash or probably slightly better at max which is nowhere close to elite four-tier.

Pikachu hasn't been that inconsistent (like losing to Snivy) anymore since XY started though. He has only lost to strong opponents and has gotten stronger too.
So Grapploct defeating Pikachu, who defeated Tapu Koko and has obliterated every single opponent since then except Leon's Charizard, says something about Bea's strenght. Even if Pikachu was already weakened by Hitmontop before.

I also don't agree that Ash is nowhere close to E4 tier. DP Ash wasn't nowhere near. JN Ash definitely is.
Ash had already almost defeated a trainer that had defeated an E4, and that was in XY. He's gotten stronger in SM and JN.
Tapu Koko, ordered by Kukui, and powered up with a Z-Move is nothing less than E4 tier, and Pikachu defeated that.

2. Ash didn't hold his own against Leon

Again, compare it to DP. Paul and Ash were about the same level by then. Paul's first and strongest pokemon (comparable to Pikachu), Torterra, was defeated by a single Brick Break from Cynthia's Garchomp. The same would've surely happened if Pikachu fought Garchomp.

Instead, Pikachu managed to exchange attacks with Leon's Charizard, he took a direct Air Slash from Charizard and kept going. Sure, Charizard's attacks were stronger, but Pikachu wasn't as outclassed as Torterra was when he fought Garchomp, or else he would've gone down after the first direct hit.
JN Ash (and Pikachu) have come a long way from not being able to hold their own to E4 or above trainers.

Which is only natural since Ash's goal this series is to defeat the number 1 trainer and champion, Leon.

 

[AJ97]

Pikachu hasn't been that inconsistent (like losing to Snivy) anymore since XY started though. He has only lost to strong opponents and has gotten stronger too.
So Grapploct defeating Pikachu, who defeated Tapu Koko and has obliterated every single opponent since then except Leon's Charizard, says something about Bea's strenght. Even if Pikachu was already weakened by Hitmontop before.

I also don't agree that Ash is nowhere close to E4 tier. DP Ash wasn't nowhere near. JN Ash definitely is.
Ash had already almost defeated a trainer that had defeated an E4, and that was in XY. He's gotten stronger in SM and JN.
Tapu Koko, ordered by Kukui, and powered up with a Z-Move is nothing less than E4 tier, and Pikachu defeated that.



Again, compare it to DP. Paul and Ash were about the same level by then. Paul's first and strongest pokemon (comparable to Pikachu), Torterra, was defeated by a single Brick Break from Cynthia's Garchomp. The same would've surely happened if Pikachu fought Garchomp.

Instead, Pikachu managed to exchange attacks with Leon's Charizard, he took a direct Air Slash from Charizard and kept going. Sure, Charizard's attacks were stronger, but Pikachu wasn't as outclassed as Torterra was when he fought Garchomp, or else he would've gone down after the first direct hit.
JN Ash (and Pikachu) have come a long way from not being able to hold their own to E4 or above trainers.

Which is only natural since Ash's goal this series is to defeat the number 1 trainer and champion, Leon.

1. Since XY Started, Pikachu first Lost against Viola in his first gym battle with her.
2. Ash’s Pikachu then lost to Clement‘s Luxray after defeating his bunnelby. And it is important to note that Bunnelby was a Pokemon Clement recently caught and it was no where as experienced as Pikachu.
3. Tapukoko and Kukui is NO WHERE close to elite four tier. Firstly, Kukui’s Strongest Pokemon, i.e his ace was defeated by Ash’s torracat. Are you saying Ash’s torracat is stronger than his Charizard/ Infernape with much greater feats who are no where close to elite four tier?
4. Defeating a Legendary Pokemon is nothing new. Ash has defeated Legendary Pokemon much before this. His Pikachu has defeated a Regice and tied with a latios much before this. If anything, I could easily argue Brandon is a much more experienced and stronger trainer than Kukui and Pikachu‘s victory against Regice is much > than his victory against Kukui and Tapu Koko.
6. Another Interesting point that is left out. You consider grappoloct defeating the Pikachu that defeated Tapu Koko a great feat? Understood. Now if you go back to Sinnoh, the same Pikachu that defeated a Regice, ties with Paul’s elekid. So wouldn’t Paul’s elekid is on the same level as Brandon’s regice? And we all saw Paul’s and Brandon’s battle.

A pokemon can only be considered elite four tier if it actually puts up a fight against an established elite four tier pokemon. You assuming Kukui’s tapu koko is elite four tier is simply head canon and not an established fact. Alain’s Charizard on the other hand, is established elite four tier and ash greninja putting up a fairy even fight against it is something you can recognize as elite four tier.

6. Now let us go back to Pokemon Journeys. Ash’s Pikachu didn’t dominate the fight against Raichu used by Pisces. It technically didn’t even dominate the fight against the trainer with the Mightyena in the battle frontier tournament. On top of that, Pikachu took a lot of damage against the random kid with the Meganium. So are you saying all these guys are almost strong enough to hold their own against the Elite four because of their respective battles with Pikachu?

Ash’s Pikachu is the most inconsistent Pokemon in terms of strength out of all of his team. This is because Pikachu’s strength is often reset to sync with the rest of his team.

7. Oh and with regard to your argument while mentioning Paul’s battle against Cynthia. You conveniently left out how an attack from Paul’s torterra was strong enough to drop Garchomp to the ground. Pikachu on the other hand was only able to cause any form of damage to Leon’s Charizard when it dynamaxed Before Charizard was able to gigantamax.

Plus, that isn’t something you call as “Holding it’s own in battle”. Holding it’s own in battle would be Ash Greninja vs Charizard X. Ash’s Pikachu was simply dominated in his fight against Leon.

Pikachu is inconsistent in terms of strength period.

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

It's kind of hard to say which Gym Leader is stronger when really the last one of each region is supposedly the strongest one.

So I still will stick to Raihan just because the PWC format gives him quite an edge.

 

[LucasMV]

1. Since XY Started, Pikachu first Lost against Viola in his first gym battle with her.
2. Ash’s Pikachu then lost to Clement‘s Luxray after defeating his bunnelby. And it is important to note that Bunnelby was a Pokemon Clement recently caught and it was no where as experienced as Pikachu.
3. Tapukoko and Kukui is NO WHERE close to elite four tier. Firstly, Kukui’s Strongest Pokemon, i.e his ace was defeated by Ash’s torracat. Are you saying Ash’s torracat is stronger than his Charizard/ Infernape with much greater feats who are no where close to elite four tier?
4. Defeating a Legendary Pokemon is nothing new. Ash has defeated Legendary Pokemon much before this. His Pikachu has defeated a Regice and tied with a latios much before this. If anything, I could easily argue Brandon is a much more experienced and stronger trainer than Kukui and Pikachu‘s victory against Regice is much > than his victory against Kukui and Tapu Koko.
6. Another Interesting point that is left out. You consider grappoloct defeating the Pikachu that defeated Tapu Koko a great feat? Understood. Now if you go back to Sinnoh, the same Pikachu that defeated a Regice, ties with Paul’s elekid. So wouldn’t Paul’s elekid is on the same level as Brandon’s regice? And we all saw Paul’s and Brandon’s battle.

A pokemon can only be considered elite four tier if it actually puts up a fight against an established elite four tier pokemon. You assuming Kukui’s tapu koko is elite four tier is simply head canon and not an established fact. Alain’s Charizard on the other hand, is established elite four tier and ash greninja putting up a fairy even fight against it is something you can recognize as elite four tier.

6. Now let us go back to Pokemon Journeys. Ash’s Pikachu didn’t dominate the fight against Raichu used by Pisces. It technically didn’t even dominate the fight against the trainer with the Mightyena in the battle frontier tournament. On top of that, Pikachu took a lot of damage against the random kid with the Meganium. So are you saying all these guys are almost strong enough to hold their own against the Elite four because of their respective battles with Pikachu?

Ash’s Pikachu is the most inconsistent Pokemon in terms of strength out of all of his team. This is because Pikachu’s strength is often reset to sync with the rest of his team.

7. Oh and with regard to your argument while mentioning Paul’s battle against Cynthia. You conveniently left out how an attack from Paul’s torterra was strong enough to drop Garchomp to the ground. Pikachu on the other hand was only able to cause any form of damage to Leon’s Charizard when it dynamaxed Before Charizard was able to gigantamax.

Plus, that isn’t something you call as “Holding it’s own in battle”. Holding it’s own in battle would be Ash Greninja vs Charizard X. Ash’s Pikachu was simply dominated in his fight against Leon.

Pikachu is inconsistent in terms of strength period.

1-2 They are Gym leader's ace pokemon, so that's not as bad as the loss against Trip's Snivy. That's what I mean with Pikachu not having been that inconsistent anymore after XY. He's still inconsistent, of course, but not as much as before.

3- Again, I don't agree. Tapu Koko is a Legendary pokemon, they're always portrayed as having superior strength in the anime. Now if you add a Z-move on top of that? There's no way that amount of power can't compete with the power of an attack from an E4 pokemon.

If you put Ash's Pikachu Z-Move that overpowered Tapu Koko's Z-Move, against Malva's Houndoom, the result would be the same. A Houndoom can't be stronger than a Z-Move powered Legendary pokemon, no matter if it's from an E4.
And before you say that's speculation, everything you or me or anyone here says it's speculation, since that's what this is about.
I also don't agree that Ash's Charizard is nowhere close to E4 tier.

And Kukui's Incineroar was taken down by a colective effort, he fought Torracat, Lycanroc and Melmetal before facing Torracat again and only then going down to his Z-Move. Incineroar was unbeaten as Royal Mask's partner for who knows how long, he even defeated TR's Mega Aggron easily. So that does put Kukui's Incineroar at least at low E4 level.

I do agree that Pikachu's power is inconsistent so we can't really measure Bea in comparison to it.
But I don't agree that he struggled against Mightyena or Meganium. The Meganium trainer even said that no pokemon had ever withstood Meganium's Solar Beam before, and Pikachu took it point blank and then defeated Meganium with Iron tail.
That's clearly showing Pikachu is not an ordinary pokemon, if it's the first one to survive Meganium's strongest attack.

About Torterra vs Garchomp, no, Frenzy Plant did not drop Garchomp to the ground. Garchomp took the attack standing because he was recharging from Giga Impact, but he was not damaged at all.

Greninja vs Zard is not holding it's own, it's "almost winning". I take "Holding it's own" as not being completly outclassed and being able to put somewhat of a fight, which Pikachu did, imo.

Lastly, I think you're way overestimating the E4 power. If this series goes the way we expect it to go, Ash will be battling and defeating E4 level trainers by the end of this series, likely even using his current team, which are his less experienced ones.
The days were the E4 was portrayed as untouchable are long gone.

 

[AJ97]

1. You contradict yourself and basically claim my point by saying "Pikachu is inconsistent". It might not be inconsistent all the time, but it is still inconsistent PERIOD.

2. Only the box legendary Pokemon have been shown to be much stronger than even champion tier pokemon. Regular trained legendary Pokemon have been shown to be stronger than the average pokemon but nothing close to elite four tier. For example, Ash's sceptile defeated Tobias's Darkrai(A legendary Pokemon which was actually trained by a trainer who had more legendary Pokemon). This is an even bigger feat than beating a wild legendary Pokemon. Are you saying Ash's sceptile is Elite four tier?
The same could be said about Pikachu defeating Regice. You are simply overestimate Ash's achievement here.

You thinking that Pikachu would defeat Malva with the same Z move etc is an "Assumption". It is an opinion. There is nothing objective about it. It is something you think would happen. You can't use something you think would happen to make an argument lol.

You think defeating a team rocket owned Pokemon puts Kukui at elite four tier? Lol. Also, Torracat battled against Kukui's Venesaur as well. And it wasn't really a team effort. It was never indicated that way. It came down as a Torracat vs Incineroar battle.
And this brings an interesting point. I don't know whether you're a new fan or someone who's been watching since the OG series. If you're the latter, I'm sure you must've watched the Orange Islands where there was an unbeatable Champion, similar to the Royal Mask called Drake who Ash defeated in battle. Did ash become elite four tier or champion tier after that? Nope.
Also, in that battle we technically see a team effort where Ash uses 4 pokemon to take out Drake's Dragonite.

3. I'm not saying Pikachu is weak or an ordinary Pokemon. I'm saying, if Pikachu was elite four tier, he should've destroyed that Meganium effortlessly the way Ash Greninja took out the Altaria in the league or the way we've seen elite four trainers destroy their opponents effortlessly.

4. I mentioned the torterra vs Garchomp point because you claimed Pikachu put up a better fight against Leon's Charizard than Paul did against Garchomp which isn't the case. In both cases, both the pokemon were completely outclassed. Paul's torterra landed a solid blow on Garchomp that hurt it to a certain extent. I'm not saying it caused significant damage. It obviously didn't.

I am not overestimating the Elite four Power one bit. They have always shown to be very powerful. If anything, you're the one underestimating them.

5. You contradict yourself again when you say the E4 was portrayed as "untouchable in the past". I'm not saying Ash won't grow during the course of his adventure and reach his level. If he has any chance of defeating Leon, that has to happen and I agree with you. But you yourself said the elite four have been shown to be incredibly overpowered which further proves my point why Ash/Pikachu is nowhere close.


That said, the primary issue with your argument is the fact that 90% of your points are based on opinions and your assumptions. Like you're assuming Kukui is E4 tier or Tapu Koko is E4 tier or Pikachu's Z move could defeat Malva etc. We don't exactly see any of that happening on screen. If there was dialogue saying the Royal Mask/ Kukui is as strong as an elite four member, I would definitely agree with you. Or dialogue saying Pikachu's attack could've defeated Malva etc.

But we did see Alain call Malva an Elite four member, defeat her on screen and we see Ash Greninja put up a fight against Charizard(Which is confirmed, elite four tier). So we can objectively state Ash greninja is elite four tier.

Leon called Ash an unrefined trainer and treated him more like a Rookie with a lot of potential than a threat. Now why would he do that if Pikachu was able to in your words "Hold its own against his Charizard". If that's the case, Leon would technically have to consider him to be a solid competitor/ opponent.

 

[CMButch]

Again, I don't agree. Tapu Koko is a Legendary pokemon, they're always portrayed as having superior strength in the anime. Now if you add a Z-move on top of that? There's no way that amount of power can't compete with the power of an attack from an E4 pokemon.

Being Legendary Pokemon doesn't mean Pokemon is E4 tier or Champion tier unless he pulls a feat on that calliber. TK did with Z move but in base: no. So, Base TK is not E4 level tier.

And Kukui's Incineroar was taken down by a colective effort, he fought Torracat, Lycanroc and Melmetal before facing Torracat again and only then going down to his Z-Move. Incineroar was unbeaten as Royal Mask's partner for who knows how long, he even defeated TR's Mega Aggron easily. So that does put Kukui's Incineroar at least at low E4 level.

No, Kukui's Incineroar was never proven to be E4 level tier, he probably is with his Incinium Z , but in Base no. All those things you considered are irrelevant because Pokemon he fought were never proven to be on that higher tier level so Incineroar can match that level. Not to mention you got things off. 1. He didn't exactly fight Lycanroc,Lycanroc just hit him with Stone Egde( in his mouth?) once and that's it. I don't remember Melmetal hitting him once and he easily beaten it with BB. So basically that's all Torracat's doing. I agree that Incineroar > Torracat but Ash's Incineroar = Kukui's.
Being partner for so long also don't mean anything, you have old gym leaders who are training and are still gym leader level or so. He beat Gozu's MA with Incinium Z move plus we don't know how strong is that Aggron probably Korinna's Mega Lucario could beat it.
So probably Kukui's Incineroar with Incinium Z may be low E4 level but in Base; no, he's probably in mid FB level or something.Ash's SM team barring Pikachu are nowhere near E4 level tier at all. Closest one is of course Incineroar who is comparable to Kukui's, but Ash's Incineroar so far can't use Incinium Z,though.

Lastly, I think you're way overestimating the E4 power. If this series goes the way we expect it to go, Ash will be battling and defeating E4 level trainers by the end of this series, likely even using his current team, which are his less experienced ones.
The days were the E4 was portrayed as untouchable are long gone.

That would be again pretty stupid if Ash's current team goes and battles E4 and wins against them instead of reserves which are already like close to E4 than his current team. But even if he did, that would mean his team got some BS power ups which will mean that they would be in his Top 10 Ash's strongest Pokemon, heck even in Top 5 or so. But we don't know any of that. Maybe Ash will use only Pikachu against them( or Leon), maybe Ash will use Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape against them( which makes more sense).That means like his Dragonite would solo almost his entire SM team, barring Pikachu. Maybe he would stop at Incineroar.

So Grapploct defeating Pikachu, who defeated Tapu Koko and has obliterated every single opponent since then except Leon's Charizard, says something about Bea's strenght. Even if Pikachu was already weakened by Hitmontop before.
I also don't agree that Ash is nowhere close to E4 tier. DP Ash wasn't nowhere near. JN Ash definitely is.
Ash had already almost defeated a trainer that had defeated an E4, and that was in XY. He's gotten stronger in SM and JN.
Tapu Koko, ordered by Kukui, and powered up with a Z-Move is nothing less than E4 tier, and Pikachu defeated that.

First paragraph is lol no. Pikachu basically struggled with TR's Pokemon and struggles with Visquez's Raichu which obviously indicates that Pikachu varies in strength. One day he's E4 level and one day's gym leader level until EOS where he lock-points his highest strength. Bea's strength obviously comes from defeating Korinna, which makes Bea still gym leader level , obviously higher of course. If you look at flashback you can see that they battled at same place Ash battled Korinna(?) which is 2 on 2. It's very likely that Bea's 1 Pokemon took Korrina's and ML took that Pokemon and lost to Grapploct if we assume that's an ace.
Ash is definitely with strongest team close to E4 level which are Greninja, Pikachu, Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape and Incineroar or Snorlax. Greninja and Pikachu( at best) are only proven to be E4 level tier while Charizard is close to it but BW self lacks feat. Logically right now they all are E4 level( except Incineroar since Snorlax obviously trained from DP to today), so at least Ash's Sceptile, Charizard and Infernape are at least low E4 tier and that's if we use low Base E4 level Pokemon and not gimmick powered ones( like Mega, Z move and Dyna/Giga). So basically we don't judge Ash being E4 tier by himself but by his Pokemon.
SM Ash being stronger than XY is again by Ash himself and not his Pokemon barring Pikachu. If you look at Ash's regional teams barring Pikachu, SM team loses to DP, BF and XY( thanks to A-G). So it's clear that Ash gets stronger as trainer( using strategy and what not, but his level depends on his Pokemon. Example: DP Ash but he uses Greninja, Infernape, Charizard, Pikachu ,Sceptile and Snorlax vs SM Ash that uses SM team. DP Ash stomps despite per say being " weaker" as trainer than SM Ash. DP Ash still can think and use strategies. Same goes with BW Ash who is still smart. So it all depends on Pokemon. TK with Z move is E4 level, but in Base; no.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Ah **** here we go again

 

[LucasMV]

Yeah, basically, I know it's just mostly opinions, and Pikachu definitely is inconsistent, I only tried to say that he's not inconsistent to the point that he will loose to a rookie pokemon ever again, but still definitely inconsistent.

And I'm aware most of what I said are assumptions based on what we know that could be right or wrong.

I do get the point of Ash-Greninja being the only confirmed E4 tier pokemon Ash has, since it fought evenly with Alain's Charizard and destroyed that Altaria like you would see in a pokemon that completely outclasses the other.

I'm just saying that it's likely that this series will close the gap between Ash (and his pokemon) and E4-Champion level trainers (and their pokemon), so it doesn't make much sense for me to say that Ash's Charizard, Sceptile, etc are nowhere close to E4 level, since by this point, like CMButch said, they very likely are.
Even his current team very likely will be by the end of this series, which doesn't make much sense but it will still probably happen if Ash does indeed defeat Leon.
So it doesn't make sense to think of E4 in the same way it used to be portrayed, cause then it wouldn't be believable that Ash would, in the span of this series, get SO much stronger to defeat them and a Champion that's way above them too.