Strongest Traveling Companions?

[Lord Trollbias]

If it's weakest to strongest, why is Tracey last? Did he even win a battle?

Think the poster meant strongest to weakest

 

[Ilikepiex7]

I actually found May's rivals to be the most interesting rivals for a traveling companion.

Battle strength May>Iris>Misty>Dawn>Brock>Cilian>Tracey>Bonnie>Max.

May won by Ko's despite being a coordinator and had an impressive team with multiple types.

 

[ShinyCharyZard]

Think the poster meant strongest to weakest

Which begs the question, why is Brock so far down? He's an experienced gym leader and has shown himself to be more than capable in any battling situation..

Like, Iris gets a free pass to climb the ranks because OP Dragonite, but Brock with the Steelix he had since he was ten, along with multiple other evolved/strong Pokemon, gets dragged down to almost Tracey's level?

That's some serious shade..

 

[Lord Trollbias]

Which begs the question, why is Brock so far down? He's an experienced gym leader and has shown himself to be more than capable in any battling situation..

Like, Iris gets a free pass to climb the ranks because OP Dragonite, but Brock with the Steelix he had since he was ten, along with multiple other evolved/strong Pokemon, gets dragged down to almost Tracey's level?

That's some serious shade..

Yeah. I have Brock in the middle. I rate him higher than Cilan and Misty but lower than Clemont in the Gym Leader hierarchy.

 

[Lorde]

I actually found May's rivals to be the most interesting rivals for a traveling companion.

Battle strength May>Iris>Misty>Dawn>Brock>Cilian>Tracey>Bonnie>Max.

May won by Ko's despite being a coordinator and had an impressive team with multiple types.

How's Misty stronger than Dawn when her only truly strong Pokemon is Gyarados?

 

[Ilikepiex7]

How's Misty stronger than Dawn when her only truly strong Pokemon is Gyarados?

her psyduck is a dangerous wild card that can put her over Dawn in a battle

 

[Red and Blue]

her psyduck is a dangerous wild card that can put her over Dawn in a battle

But Misty never learned how properly control its psychic abilities. It could still easily lose in a battle against dawn. I honestly don't think Misty and dawn are in the same league strength wise

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To Platinum fan:

Oh its totally fine , we dont talk as much as we should anyway and im always open for constructive thoughts.

Last comment could apply to other girls, but seeing how member i debated with expressed complaints over Dawn character being underplayed "not receiving enough support and recognition".

I decided to comment on this and how there doesnt exist any real basis for such complaint, given how Dawn is much more liked than disliked in here and sites i mentioned. With situation within fandom changing, new fans coming and different qualities being preferred and valued nowadays.

Its true how its absurd and ungrateful to constantly compare which character or girl in this case is better than another, because oeach of them have their ups and downs. Brought something different on table whether its stiry, interactions and chemistry with others, battles, backstory, impact on plot etc.

But in fandom this things still does happen and one character qualities never get emphasized upon without degrading other one in comparison unfortunately.

Within myself i try to be objective and give fair evaluation to every character regardless of whether he/she suit my taste or not.

Personally i based my choices of considering May and Misty to be strongest battlers out of Ash friends on several things.

From how much battle spirit their pokemon showed, type of people they faced, type of goals they pursue or profession they obtain(such as gym leader position and desire to become water master,reaching E4 level of strength in Misty case, or desire to become top coordinator and having more tuned for traditional type of battles strategy in May case), Type of battles they enter(because contest battle rounds are not the same as normal trainer duels which are based more on resistance and raw power of pokemon in most cases).

Hence why i make difference between collecting experience as trainer and collecting experience as coordinator. Defining differently what kind of training, battling and strategy someone will utilize. Even though i know this irks some people, but its true. There exist differences.

Determination they posess as persons and resourcefulness to find way out of unpleasant situations and future untapped potential their pokemon alone have(how much room they have left to grow more powerful) or characters themselves, Depending on path they follow and how high they shoot.

Because regardless of some past main characters having more on screen battles than another, im not paying attention to numbers but quality of battles or importance of achievements themselves and circumstances under which they took place.

In end, it would always be plot which decide who would win and who wouldnt. But in my mind those who have most experience in certain type of battling and competitions would have edge over another theoretically.

Hence why coordinstors would imo excell better at field they are more familiar with; contests. While trainers, type specialists would probably have upper hand in trainer battles.

How can you say that Misty, who specializes in using water pokemon, goes against someone else who specializes in nothing, and beats him, that her specialty doesn't give her an advantage? It clearly does. Ash also lost in a comedic way with the whole psyduck silliness. That proves that battle wasn't anything to be taken seriously, just like that tournament.

While Misty may had advantage in that battle, Ash proved countless times through his innnovative thinking and unusual strategies how he is more than capable to stand up to type specialists like gym leaders, trainers much older and more experienced than he is and tournaments with strong competition.

Just because Misty may had more knowledge doesnt mean how she was guaranteed to win, gaining victory through better preparation, choice of attacks and use of terrain where battle took place.

Also way to generalize importance on whole tournament based on one fight where Psyduck got involved. Because one battle clearly speaks in name of every other battle which took place in that event?

Speaking of which battle was still meant to be taken seriously unless your going to ignore fact how Misty fefeated Ash Totodile and still had pretty strong chance of defeating Kingler with Corsola hadnt Psyduck popped out.

You can play semantics all you like but one comedy incident doesnt speak in name of entire match Ash and Misty had with skill knowledge and who is more adaptable to unexpected situations deciding winner of that battle.

Let alone tournament itself.

For record outside of Whirl Cup, whenever Misty and Ash batled she was pretty tied to him with winner not being known until last moment as Cerulean battle for badge and duel for Totodile showed. With battles being always difficult, close and unpredictable until last moment.

So your argument of Misty winning battle because of being more experienced with water types doesnt add up when taken in account how even when Ash was battling at his field he was never portrayed of being miles ahead in strategy and power when going against Misty.

So a hotly contested battle between two skilled trainers = pointless draw? Since when? And it seemed to me that quilava was having an easier time in that battle, but I guess each person would have their own position on that. Also, you say Ash was not at the skill level he had in Sinnoh, but how do you know Dawn did not suffer from the same thing. You don't, therefore you can't use that as a defense.

I never said battle was pointless, but how further battling was considered pointless and unnecessary from Cynthia part. With trainers sometime cancelling battle before it can finish if pokemon in confrontation are too exhausted, cant gain advantage in battle continuing with consecutive exchange of attacks which dont accomplish anything.

Other than causing battle to reach trench war style, complete stalemate only risking that pokemon gets seriously injured if continuation happens or both fall down due to exhaustion. Something Mahagony gym leader Pryce for example noticed deciding to give Ash win through technical knock out. Despite Piloswine and Pikachu being completely tied, knowing when its time to stop and not risk unnecessary injury.


Dawn and Ash battle reached stalemate and neither side was capable of overpowering either strategy.

And if we are going to talk about Ash regresson extending to others around him. Difference is that unlike Ash, Dawn didnt showed any signs during her return on having amnesia of previous attack combinations she utilized, her pokemon still containing same techniques and attack combinations they had before. Which can be evidenced in battle against Cilan with her counter shield formed from Piplup leaving him confused not expecting such type of move.

Along with her maturity, confidence she restored after getting over depression streak and knowledge being there.

Giving more than enough information to make educated guess how Dawn didnt regressed in any shape or form, just like Ash situation didnt caused Cilan or Iris to be less experienced or smarter than they were already.

And how under such circumstances where we reliably know how Ash wasnt at his top shape battling at full force, Dawn tied battle with Quillava dont say much about her skills as trainer.

No other companion could beat Ash in a serious 1 on 1 battle, Iris not only beats him but does it in a tournament final, but you don't think it means much. But Misty beats Ash in a tournament tailor made for her in a comedic fashion and somehow that means everything? I can't understand that logic.

As said above, Iris defeating Ash who wasnt in top form, Pikachu which was clearly drained of its full potential with Excadrill which had massive advantage doesnt serve as strong enough indication. How she is indeed better trainer than Ash as you seem to imply or how this win means she is stronger than any other past main character. Because it doesnt.

With win under such scenario where everything iot sorted to work in her favor not being especially great feat.

Even if Ash was battling Iris at full force and lost. That still wouldnt be reliable enough indication of Iris being strongest trainer.

For simple fact of one battle not proving anything, other than circumstances and situation under which battle took place being aligned enough to give someone higher ground to stand on.

Otherwise going by that logic of one win meaning your better than another, "We could say how Ash is stronger trainer than Paul", ignoring fact how Paul prior to that defeated Ash as well with 6 on 6 battle.

"How James is beter coordinator than Dawn" because his Carnivine outclassed disobedient Mamoswine.

Or how "Iris is stronger trainer than Stephan" because she defeated him once with Emolga. Ignoring fact how he defeated her next time with Sawk outpowering Excadrill.

Going by your logic we could apply same principle in real life when objectively worse soccer team defeat favorite. Or when tennis player from 400th place for example placed on ATP list manage to defeat number one player in world by some miracle.

Not taking in account how other player may had bad day, how he wasnt in top shape , suffered from ilness before weakening him or lower rated player simply having lot of luck doing better than his skills would allow consistently.

Hence why Iris win in one situation doesnt mean she would be equally successful in another battle(and as Krookodile vs Dragonite showed, she didnt).

Likewise for record i never said how Misty win over Ash in Whirl Cup was indicarion of her being stronger trainer than others. But used it as example to point out to you how Iris was not the only one who defeated Ash in official match and how Misty win if anything had more credibility behind itself.

For simple fact of Ash not lacking experience and skills he gained from his previous travels and confrontations he faced. Unlike it was case in Unova when battling Iris.

We constantly saw Dawn training, coming up with new techniques and combinations. How often did we see May do anything like that? No where near as often as Dawn. She trained more, she achieved more, and had more respect from Ash than any other companion. I think that proves she is stronger. Also, she garnered the title of Hoenn princess for losing in the round of 16. Sounds more like a name she gave herself because I can't see why a loser twice removed would get such a title.

Just because Dawn was showed more often training on screen or perfecting for appeals doesnt mean May trained, practiced in developing more effective techniques etc. any less.

Forgetting how of screen training, battling etc exists or how showing constantly on screen training wasnt one of prioriotis characteristic for HOenn series. Being based more on showing whether fruits of development managed to move May, Ash etc spomewhere or not. Being moe about psychological evolution of characters andhow May relatrionship with friends and ruvals saffected her as person and battles themsekves.

Rather than practicing with writers not seeing need to show it in same quantity like it was case for Sinnoh. Where they exaggerated at tmes with it causing repetitiveness and monotony due to centering too many episodes on nothing else but that(especiually during Snowpoint and Sunnyshore gap).

Dawn didnt achieved more either. May had much better battle record losing like i said only 3 official contests out of 13. Topped 2 Grand Festivals and was on good way to qualify for third one collecting already 3 ribbons in Johto,defeated main rivals, formed more balanced pokemon team and earned respect from others for her ablities and improvisation showed in contests . To the point of her name making its way to be heard in regions outside of Hoenn and Kanto.

With Dawn herself commenting how people in Sinnoh call her "Princess of Hoen!" .

Ash never showed more respect to Dawn than he did for May, Misty etc either. Appreciating and recognizing their persistence, knowledge and talent saying more than once how Misty is great trainer having faith in her and being grateful for teaching him how to be more perceptive and patient. Or commenting on how far May came as coordinator from days of insecure, undecided girl being proud.

So i dont think more credit should be given to someone than it was showed.

Enjoying high reputation there.

By those standards, no one could ever compare and contrast anything.

If we want to be objective, yes it couldnt,. Because one win over somene else as long as its not an easy win doesnt say anything( aside from factors sorting themselves in such manner to give someone upper hand over another).

Having to defeat someone consistently to prove your better trainer than other side, hence why this this kind of threads and comparison betweern companions who never even batled between themselves never prove anything.

Dawn took part in one GF, her first, and reached the finals, losing in a very heated battle. Had she a little more time, she would have won. May took part in two and couldn't even sniff the finals. She lost lost in a head to head to Dawn. The evidence is all there and very clear to see.

I dont think Dawn was about to win there. Whole battle between Zoey and Dawn was close and very evened out in terms of strategy, strength of pokemon and innovation in pairing up pokemon attacks to effectively counter oppponent moves.

In end Zoey showed abit more skill and flexibility as coordinator than Dawn did netting her win in GF.

And once again your oversimplifying things not taking in account how Grand Festivals May entered may had stronger competition to fight against, different rules and standards required to be met to have chance to triumph there.

You have no evidence whatsoever to support your theory how Sinnoh Gand Festival was in terms of dificulty demanding as Grand Festival May entered. Or that May wouldnt have come to finals of Sinnoh GF as well.

Your basing this solely on personal preference and attacks looking more flashy and better detailed, which was more so result of writers improvement in putting more effort in making contests more eye captivating, better animation and bigger diversity in pokemon and choice of moves being introduced over time.

Soledad might as well have not had that 'backstory' because it was contrived at best. She claimed to have known Brock, which is odd that a girl crazy guy like him would never mention her. Then she leaves and is never mentioned or even referenced again. Makes as much sense as Tobias. Harley spent his time crossdressing and munipulating children. Not worth mentioning. Drew was too conceited and, just like May, is a loser. Again, not worth talking about.

Irrelevant to discussion. Whether Solidad backstory was contrived or not doesnt change fact that we seen her in action prior to defeating May. Learned more about her past and what kind of personality she really has delivering more substance to her character overall.

Only reason why Brock never mentioned her before is because of pokemon series being notoriously known for very bad continuity and what happened in previous sagas which my had left impact on characters and story. Something which is attributive to pretty much every pokemon series.

But she was in fact brought up again during May participation in Wallace Cup watching her on TV with rest of May rivals currently residing in Johto at that time.

Harley may have resorted to sneaky tricks but that if anything revealed his foxiness as character than anything else knowing how to take advantage of situation and turn it to his gain.

Not to mention playing unfairly doesnt mean your necessarily weak trainer.
Going by such logic should we say how villains like Team Galactic or Team Plasma, Cyrus , Ghetsis, Giovanni etc are weak trainers too? Because they ambush people and use dirty tricks too in achieving their goals.

Or Hunter J , Tyson from TR which used two Fearow against Lance Dragonite?
Etc, etc.

Being villain and resorting to tricks=/= necessarily mean that same villain or cheater is weak trainer.

And i cant even take you seriously about Drew.

You do realize that we are talking about person who was runner up of Hoenn Grand Festival almost winning it on first try(something you often bring up as Dawn highlight and evidence of her "virtuosic" strategies). Ended top 8 in Kanto Grand Festival, defeated all kind of pokemon like Girafarig, Arcanine or Lairon through Masqueraide, Flygon, Absol or his main ace Roselia etc. being consistently acknowledged by judges and other coordinators as competent, promising and sophisticated coordinator.

So no, Drew was anything but weak.

What easier standards? And the Grand Festival in Sinnoh was much grander than the ones before it. Just look at the opening round. In AG and BF, all you had to do was walk out in a cute outfit, your pokemon does a move and that's it. In DP, you had to come up with an elaborate performance with intriguing move combinations. It was on a much higher level than anything before it. Plus Dawn had several named opponents. May only had two jabronis for most of her run before Mrs Tobias showed up in BF.

What you just said is ignoring fact how in every region where contests are held, coordinators have different battling style in general using different approach, with incomers which achieved notable results in previous region not being guaranteed how they will be prepared for different strategies people use elsewhere.

Unlike it was case with Sinnoh contests where coordinators focused more on appeal rounds and making attacks look pretty with power not being as important; May contest journey with battling rounds was more similar to regular trainer battles . There was more raw and straightforward approach,appeal rounds were largely different and emphasis was put more on strategy on neutralizing other side.

Therefore coordinators which got used to one battling style in specific region like Sinnoh might likely have problems in adjusting to different strategy not being prepared for standards existing in Hoenn, Kanto contests.

This was further evidenced through May visit in DP saying how she was on losing streak lately after winning 3 ribbons in Johto having issue in finding ways how to adjust to different moves and tactics coordinators native to that region might use.

Not to mention i consider likes of Drew, Solidad, Harley, Robert and his Milotic, Erica and Jinx, masked Phantom and his Dusclops etc, etc to be more challenging and stronger trainers to go against than majority of contestants Dawn faced. With Sinnoh Grand Festival being characterized by weaker trainers in comparison imo such as Jessie or Kenny.

Iris used dragonite in every round so krokodile was fresh while it was not. Plus there was the evolution power boost and full heal that the anime likes to award.

Taking part in more regular battles means nothing. Dawn's mother only did contests yet no one during DP could beat her.

She did not finish it off but she could have. She was only trying to save Ash since he was about to be destroyed. Roak also failed to beat aerodactyl despite all his 'regular battle experience,' which neither helped him or Ash.

Just like Dragonite had complete immunity to ice attacks from Beartic and Mamoswine despite having 4x weakness against them not affecting him much at all. If your going to apply Ash win to luck and evolution battling under unfair conditions, than you shouldn't ignore how Dragonite had as much plot armor on its side.


When it defied logic by resisting attacks he normally shouldnt with no explanation being present in how he achieved such endurance(such as rigorous training under extreme conditions for example), or Iris winning despite not controlling her pokemon who won by its own against Georgia and Dawn. Rather than through Iris merit and her own competence as trainer undermining greatly value of those wins in Junior Cup.

Dragonite certainly didnt seemed tired when battling Ash Krokorok, yet even before evolution Ash pokemon was successfuly outmaneuvering Iris pokemon by dodging attacks through use of dig and delivering effective blows through crunch and stone edege putting Dragonite in problems. Evolution was just end game in finishing Dragonite through dragon claw and another stone edge.

Taking part in more regular battles mean alot when discussing strength of traveling companions in this thread. Since entering more regular battles gives you more experience, familiarity with type of strategies and planning which is utilized in normal battles, Along with pokemon which are trained for such type of matches being more resilient, rough and containing bigger physical stength than pokemon used for contests. Having due to that better advantage when going up against another trainer.

Which came to expression very well in Dawn case when she couldnt stand to Maylene despite being novice gym leader or during Junior Cup when Mamoswine ice attacks lacked enough power and condensity to leave much of effect on dragon type. While as i said before Ash Krokorok/Krookodile was able to score infinitely better success despite using attacks which arent super effective against dragons at all due to his pokemon receiving different training than you would expect for contests. Being because of that stronger and more sturdy.

Im not even sure what Dawn mother has to do with anything. She barely battled and even when she did it was usually against other coordinators or her daughter Dawn who never reached her level really.
Johanna case doesnt prove anything over coordinators having just as much competence in regular battles, like they do in contests.

Because just like normal trainers would struggle in contest battling rounds due to not training and preparing for such type of matches, same applies to coordinators when battling outside their own element; normal battles.


About that fray with fossil pokemon Dawn Piplup and Buneary only managed to stop hyper beam from hitting Ash and besot wild pokemon by jumping on its back putting him to ground.

Last time i checked that isnt winning , let alone proving how Dawn as rookie was better trainer than Ash who had 4 leagues behind himself at that point or veteran such as gym leader Roark.

Cacthing prehystoric pokemon by surprise and using 2 pokemon against one. As oppose to Roark who used only Cranidos and having no choice but to confront giga impact directly with headbutt in order to mitigate impact and prevent Aerodactyl from hitting them.

Ash by than defeated 2 much more powerful pokemon legendaries(Articuno and Regice), May defeated likes of Flygon, Absol or Jinx, Misty defeated Gyarados, Mantine or Poliwrath which somehow seem more impressive to me.

Than stunning for moment Aerodactyl to allow another person to take advantage and catch it.

I don't dislike Soledad, I just found her to be Tobias' equivalent. And Harley was weak. He spent more time playing tricks and being deceptive than trying to win fairly.

Covered already above. Why Tobias and Solidad cannot be compared not being introduced as filler character serving just purpose to stop May from winning GF or why Harley wasnt weak at all. Regardless of not being your cup of tea.

Zoey is the superior trainer so that would not have helped May. May beating Drew doesn't mean as much since he is not in Zoey's league. And let's not mention Harley...

Yet for someone superior she was completely overpowered and outclassed by May proving in Wallace Cup to be more knowledgeable, having stronger pokemon and more talented.

And managed to defeat Drew who just like Dawn ended at second place in Hoenn Grand Festival.

Your logic doesnt add up in here.

Fact is May had two advantages in her battle with Ash and could only force a draw. Iris had one advantage and beat him into the ground even though Ash has beaten pokemon who have had the advantage over pikachu before then and since. You have no counter for that.

Only real advantage like i said before was in May using fire against grass type. Battling in contests didnt worked in May favor due to character itself not training her pokemon in such way that it could take advantage of dodging opponent attacks and delivering counter measures in enough productive, sparkly and captivating way to make herself earn points while doing so from judges. May went against Ash head on concentrating more on trying to overpower him with raw strength, direct hits and tries to anticipate Sceptile next move.

And in battle on such terms Ash had much bigger advantage than May had due to training, battling and building experience for much longer period of time for such type of skirmish. Than May had.

That was whole point behind May leaving main cast feeling she has to find her own approach and strategy to use.

Speaking of Iris win no matter how many times you try to ignore this, it doesnt change truth of Ash Pikachu not just being at disadvantage, but also not being at full strength due to being drained out by Zekrom. Or how Ash mentally and as trainer didnt radiated with same competence, knowledge and creativity as he used to have in DP before being downplayed through plot power to better mirror games.

And for all those times Ash managed to overcome type disadvantage winning against electric or grass pokemon with water ones, against ice with grass types, with electric over ground species.

He also lost several of them with type advantage overpowering his pokemon. Such as Macy Quillava defeating his Phanpy, Winona Swellow defeating Growyle, Grant Tyrunt defeating Fletching, Morrison Gligar defeating Growyle, Paul Honchkrow defeating Grotle etc, etc, etc.

Thus Iris win due to type advantage not being as amazing achievement as you try to present. Being much easier to win battle while having advantage, than not.

Misty hardly ever did anything to move the plot forward in any ep that was not specifically about her or her pokemon. Hence, that is a failure. She just was not doing enough, plain and simple, and got the boot because of it.

You dont seem to understand what means moving plot forward than im afraid. Because moving plot isnt only conditioned by how much character dreams and its own storyline is fleshed out, but also in how much of influence he/she leaves on journey as whole, other characters and plot which binds everything together.

And in that field Misty aside from having her own storyline, fears, conflicts and dreams wanting to accomplish, also moved main plot of pokemon series much more than May, Dawn or Iris had.

Spoiler: explanation

In leaving huge impact on Ash as trainer being like his coach and mentor. Voice of reason balancing out his stubborn, hotblooded side through her criticism, sarcasm, teasing pushing him to become stronger trainer. Take training easily not letting him to fool around. Not underestimate his opponents with glory hitting him in head such as vs Gary. Taught him about type advantages, places to register for league, tournaments and all kind of other things.,

Bringing moral boost and encouragement allowing Ash to get over depression after losing in Indigo league or help develop better strategies with her motivation speech causing Squirtle to learn hydro pump for example etc.

Along with often taking charge in finding way out of dangerous situaton getting Ash, Brock and others on safe through her sharp mind, clever ideas and being very observant. Such as from sunk ship St. Anne, in helping set up trap to catch pokemon like Snorlax,finding way how to prove Ash/Brock innocence getting them out of jail. Saving Ash from drowning or healing him and Tracey from Vileplume poison. Stopping Butch and Cassidy on several occasions at one point destroying their whole base through help of Togepi.

Often breaking through TR plans being able to recognize them behind disguise thwarting their attempts to steal pokemon, came up with ideas how to find way out to next town getting out of forest full of ghosts on way to Azalea town, reminded Ash of important errands such as delivering GS ball to professor Kurt keeping under control his cocky behavior or borrowing her pokemon to help others out. Such as using water pokemon to help carry raft or boat on open sea to get to another island or escape from danger(this was especially prevalent in Orange Islands when Lapras was unable to perform certain tasks).

Serving as moral compass and someone who through tough, strong willed nature often found way out of bad situations influencing others and journey as well.

That was Misty contribution in advancing plot, and majority of examples i used in previous post were outside of episodes dedicated to her or her dreams.

So try again.

Likewise i find it ironic your claim of Misty being replaced because of being apparently "failure which never did anything".

Yet that "failure" stayed longer in main anime than May, Iris or Dawn and was the only past female lead getting to play star role in pokemon chronicles for multiple episodes.

Every competition has competitors from around the globe, so I don't know what you're talking about. The competitors in the Sinnoh GF weren't all from Sinnoh.

Point was how Whirl Cup due to tradition, competition you have to face there and story predating from ancient times. All accompanied with special items and title winner gets there gave out impression of potentially being more prestigious and recognized globally than Grand Festival may be.

It's so famous no one ever talks about it or references it since. Yeah, it's really big time.

Just like Hoenn, Kanto and Sinnoh Grand Festivals. Junior Cup, Orange league or Battle Frontier Ash conquered, etc, etc never get mentioned or referenced either. Once that region ends and Ash moves to next one.

Your point?

Poor continuity in pokemon series and ignoring of past has no effect on whether something was relevant or wasn't.

The Don battle tournaments were not made for Iris. What indication is there this is true. Perhaps if it was specifically about dragon pokemon you would have a point, but it was open to everyone and Iris performed very well in all of them. The Whirl Cup existed for Misty. Had she gotten the boot in Kanto, it never would have taken place. FACT!!!!! The only one using a double standard can be seen in your mirror.

Whirl Cup along with most of Whirl Islands episodes existed to explain more on Misty career of becoming water pokemon master exploring more on whole concept itself.

Just like contests existed in anime solely to push forward May and Dawn contest careers(otherwise they would just get one random episode like Pokethlon did to reference game quest). Just like gyms exists to advance Ash dream of becoming pokemon master serving as mean to qualify for league. Or just like episodes based around Opelucid gym leader Drayden, dragon village and elders, Junior Cup and Iris participation in Don George tournaments. Served purpose of fleshing out Iris story.

Hence existing solely just like Whirl Cup to focus on this character dreams and stories and set up ways to help someone excell and shine.

If some tournament or competition is created and written to revolve around someone career and help add more depth to story, than its normal and logical to expect how character whose career is in question would be center of attention there,

Cognition of you not having problems with such things happening for other girls, Ash, Brock etc. Only singling out Misty focus and story arcs centered on exploration of her character, agenda she had set in mind to follow developing her dreams says ALOT by its own with any further talk being needless.

I have seen no evidence of this. Especially since Serena has emerged, Dawn's clone in many ways, she is all they talk about. Honestly, the only reason Serena has not won this poll because even Serena fans can see how crappy of a trainer she is. If she was even a decent trainer, she would have won this too, hands down.

Than you didnt look at right places i suppose.

Which begs the question, why is Brock so far down? He's an experienced gym leader and has shown himself to be more than capable in any battling situation..

Like, Iris gets a free pass to climb the ranks because OP Dragonite, but Brock with the Steelix he had since he was ten, along with multiple other evolved/strong Pokemon, gets dragged down to almost Tracey's level?

That's some serious shade..

I ask myself same thing about Misty being ranked among weakest trainers around here.

Apparently being gym leader who battles and trains on frequent basis, recognized by many as adaptive and intelligent water trainer striving to become water master one day. Competitions she won or trainers older, more experienced than her she beat etc mean nothing.

Whats even more surprising is how aside from Gyarados, rest of Misty pokemon team is viewed as subpar, joke basically.

Like Poliwhirl/Politoad. I dont think that pokemon is any weaker than Dawn Mamoswine or May Blaziken.

Proving to be one of most trained and strongesr pokemon Misty used.
Politoad arent any worse than Poliwrath as final evolution in Poliwag line even though many dont take it seriously because its less "mean looking"..

Staryu which proved to be very fast and resilient on several occasions taking down other pokemon like Weezing, Tentacruel with single hits, giving run for its money to basically pseudo legendary pokemon such as Molly mirage pokemn?

Corsola which won alot more than she lost defeating several pokemon like Espeon, Delcatty, Gyarados or Mantine?

Or Starmie which is not just in anime, but games as well considered one of best pokemon for competitive play.

Yes Misty rarely used it, it was left home very early on. But exactly because of that we never saw its full potential and what is capable, let alone ignoring how its more likely than not being trained at Cerulean gym.

This pokemon i mentioned never seemed weak to me.
Not needing wild card named Psyduck to defeat others.

But Misty never learned how properly control its psychic abilities. It could still easily lose in a battle against dawn. I honestly don't think Misty and dawn are in the same league strength wise

True, but Dawn never saw Misty Psyduck being unfamiliar with its hidden powers though. So if anything Misty Psyduck would have big effect of surprise in that battle and to be fair we didnt saw Misty for whole decade. We have no idea if Psyduck improved or didnt.

Even if we exclude Psyduck i believe Misty Politoad, Staryu, Starmie, Corsola and Gyarados are more than enough powerful to stand up to Dawn pokemon such as Piplup, Buneary, Pachirisu, Quilava or Mamoswine.

But thats just my view on this if match between them would ever happen.

 

[Nodame]

I still don't think any girl is stronger than the other unless it's confirmed in the anime who's the strongest. i don't see why it's a big deal :x

 

[Red and Blue]

I can't believe Brock and Clemont didn't get any votes. They've proven themselves to be decent trainers. Hell, even Bonnie got two votes :/

 

[MattySadler]

How on earth was Bonnie scored two votes!? Surely the work of internet trolls?

 

[chalkus]

While Misty may had advantage in that battle, Ash proved countless times through his innnovative thinking and unusual strategies how he is more than capable to stand up to type specialists like gym leaders, trainers much older and more experienced than he is and tournaments with strong competition.

Just because Misty may had more knowledge doesnt mean how she was guaranteed to win, gaining victory through better preparation, choice of attacks and use of terrain where battle took place.

Also way to generalize importance on whole tournament based on one fight where Psyduck got involved. Because one battle clearly speaks in name of every other battle which took place in that event?

Speaking of which battle was still meant to be taken seriously unless your going to ignore fact how Misty fefeated Ash Totodile and still had pretty strong chance of defeating Kingler with Corsola hadnt Psyduck popped out.

Do you honestly think that if Misty was not around, that had she been taken off the team after Indigo that the Whirl Cup would have ever taken place? Of course it wouldn't. That means it existed purely for Misty to shine. But even then, she couldn't even score a legit win over Ash. It ended up being a comic relief one. You can say whatever you want about what happened prior, but once the battle came down to the wire, Misty won in a gimmicky, childish way. That tells me not even the writers took this seriously, hence why I don't take the Whirl Cup seriously either.

I never said battle was pointless, but how further battling was considered pointless and unnecessary from Cynthia part. With trainers sometime cancelling battle before it can finish if pokemon in confrontation are too exhausted, cant gain advantage in battle continuing with consecutive exchange of attacks which dont accomplish anything.

That battle lasted less than a hand full of minutes before it was cut short so how could you just declare it would be a pointless draw? There is no way to know that it would end that way. At least there wasn't a comical ending, which shows the writers cared more about that battle than the one with Misty.

As said above, Iris defeating Ash who wasnt in top form, Pikachu which was clearly drained of its full potential with Excadrill which had massive advantage doesnt serve as strong enough indication. How she is indeed better trainer than Ash as you seem to imply or how this win means she is stronger than any other past main character. Because it doesnt.

Hence why Iris win in one situation doesnt mean she would be equally successful in another battle(and as Krookodile vs Dragonite showed, she didnt).

Likewise for record i never said how Misty win over Ash in Whirl Cup was indicarion of her being stronger trainer than others. But used it as example to point out to you how Iris was not the only one who defeated Ash in official match and how Misty win if anything had more credibility behind itself.

For simple fact of Ash not lacking experience and skills he gained from his previous travels and confrontations he faced. Unlike it was case in Unova when battling Iris.

First of all, Pikachu lost his power early in the season. By the time he fought excadrill, that was no longer an issue.

And my point about Iris was that her beating Ash shows that she in one of his strongest companions, not necessarily that she was stronger than he was definitively. Perhaps at that moment she was, but not necessarily by the time they separated. As I have said before, no other female companion had ever beaten Ash in a serious one on one battle but she did. It was a noteworthy moment and something I believe is indicative or Iris' skill. What happened to her in her second battle with Ash doesn't count because of extenuating circumstances involving dragonite's fatigue and going berserk.

Misty's win over Ash doesn't mean much because of the comical way it ended.

Just because Dawn was showed more often training on screen or perfecting for appeals doesnt mean May trained, practiced in developing more effective techniques etc. any less.

That sounds like a copout. AG was almost 200 episodes long. If May was this workhorse that you say she is, it should have been very evident. It wasn't. Dawn trained often during DP, coming up with new techniques and combinations, many of which Ash stole from her for his own use. FACT!!!!!! Ash took nothing from May. He learnt nothing form May. You can't get around that simply by saying, 'well, it could have happened off screen.'

Dawn didnt achieved more either. May had much better battle record losing like i said only 3 official contests out of 13. Topped 2 Grand Festivals and was on good way to qualify for third one collecting already 3 ribbons in Johto,defeated main rivals, formed more balanced pokemon team and earned respect from others for her ablities and improvisation showed in contests . To the point of her name making its way to be heard in regions outside of Hoenn and Kanto.

With Dawn herself commenting how people in Sinnoh call her "Princess of Hoen!" .

Ash never showed more respect to Dawn than he did for May, Misty etc either. Appreciating and recognizing their persistence, knowledge and talent saying more than once how Misty is great trainer having faith in her and being grateful for teaching him how to be more perceptive and patient. Or commenting on how far May came as coordinator from days of insecure, undecided girl being proud.

As I said before, DP contests were tougher than AG. In AG, all you had to do was show up in a cute outfit, do a little move, and you got through. In DP, you needed a complex move combination just to be considered. Also, Dawn had a much better arc than May did. She had to overcome adversity and self doubt before getting to the finals of GF. May never had anything like that.

As far as being princess of Hoenn, she is still a loser twice removed who has never been in a finals. So it's irrelevant.

And Ash did show Dawn a lot more respect than May. He missed some of her contests, did not help her much with her preparations for contests, and only took part in that one near the end. Ash took part in Dawn's very first contest, helped her train, traded her one of his pokemon (something else he has never done with a female companion) and took part in other contests. That says a lot to me.

I dont think Dawn was about to win there. Whole battle between Zoey and Dawn was close and very evened out in terms of strategy, strength of pokemon and innovation in pairing up pokemon attacks to effectively counter oppponent moves.

I think it could have gone either way. But it would have been close.

You have no evidence whatsoever to support your theory how Sinnoh Gand Festival was in terms of dificulty demanding as Grand Festival May entered. Or that May wouldnt have come to finals of Sinnoh GF as well.

I answered that above.

Irrelevant to discussion. Whether Solidad backstory was contrived or not doesnt change fact that we seen her in action prior to defeating May. Learned more about her past and what kind of personality she really has delivering more substance to her character overall.

It is relevant. The only difference between Soledad and Tobias is that she had a silly back story that made no sense and was never brought up again.

Not to mention playing unfairly doesnt mean your necessarily weak trainer.
Going by such logic should we say how villains like Team Galactic or Team Plasma, Cyrus , Ghetsis, Giovanni etc are weak trainers too? Because they ambush people and use dirty tricks too in achieving their goals.

Or Hunter J , Tyson from TR which used two Fearow against Lance Dragonite?
Etc, etc.

Being villain and resorting to tricks=/= necessarily mean that same villain or cheater is weak trainer.

Hunter J and the Teams are criminals. Harley was taking part in competitions. There is a stark difference there.

So no, Drew was anything but weak.

Might not have been weak but he can't be taken seriously. Sorry.

What you just said is ignoring fact how in every region where contests are held, coordinators have different battling style in general using different approach, with incomers which achieved notable results in previous region not being guaranteed how they will be prepared for different strategies people use elsewhere.

It's not a matter of coordinator style but of judging. The judging in Sinnoh is on a whole other level from Hoenn. How you can continue to deny that baffles me. There is no comparison.

Not to mention i consider likes of Drew, Solidad, Harley, Robert and his Milotic, Erica and Jinx, masked Phantom and his Dusclops etc, etc to be more challenging and stronger trainers to go against than majority of contestants Dawn faced. With Sinnoh Grand Festival being characterized by weaker trainers in comparison imo such as Jessie or Kenny.

Once again you're being dishonest by mentioning Jessie and Kenny while ignoring Zoey, Nando and Ursula. And most of the people you mentioned from Hoenn are forgettable jabronis whose battles I can't even remember. Everyone knows Zoey, Nando and Ursula. No one knows the phantom, Erica or Robert.

Dragonite certainly didnt seemed tired when battling Ash Krokorok, yet even before evolution Ash pokemon was successfuly outmaneuvering Iris pokemon by dodging attacks through use of dig and delivering effective blows through crunch and stone edege putting Dragonite in problems. Evolution was just end game in finishing Dragonite through dragon claw and another stone edge.

Dragonite was both overused and berserk. Hence, extenuating circumstances.

Im not even sure what Dawn mother has to do with anything. She barely battled and even when she did it was usually against other coordinators or her daughter Dawn who never reached her level really.
Johanna case doesnt prove anything over coordinators having just as much competence in regular battles, like they do in contests.

If I remember correctly, Johanna battled Ash and beat him into the ground. You seemed to be implying that a regular trainer is stronger than a coordinator but Ash could do nothing against her. A pokemon using well placed attacks can be as valuable if not more so than a powerhouse. The same can be said for Dawn, who mirrors Johanna in some ways.

About that fray with fossil pokemon Dawn Piplup and Buneary only managed to stop hyper beam from hitting Ash and besot wild pokemon by jumping on its back putting him to ground.

Last time i checked that isnt winning , let alone proving how Dawn as rookie was better trainer than Ash who had 4 leagues behind himself at that point or veteran such as gym leader Roark.

Neither Ash nor Roak could stop it. She did with pokemon she did not have very long with her new spin maneuver. That syas more than enough. Whether she KOed it or not is irrelevant since she was trying to save Ash's like, not win a battle.

Yet for someone superior she was completely overpowered and outclassed by May proving in Wallace Cup to be more knowledgeable, having stronger pokemon and more talented.

And managed to defeat Drew who just like Dawn ended at second place in Hoenn Grand Festival.

Your logic doesnt add up in here.

Drew is weaker than Zoey so beating him wasn't as hard as it was for Dawn to beat Zoey. Plus Zoey has Dawn's number. Similarly, Ursula was a very good coordinator but she could never beat Dawn.

Only real advantage like i said before was in May using fire against grass type. Battling in contests didnt worked in May favor due to character itself not training her pokemon in such way that it could take advantage of dodging opponent attacks and delivering counter measures in enough productive, sparkly and captivating way to make herself earn points while doing so from judges. May went against Ash head on concentrating more on trying to overpower him with raw strength, direct hits and tries to anticipate Sceptile next move.

They were in a contest. Ash was not familiar with the rules, so she had that advantage over him. That's a fact, stop trying to dodge it.

And in battle on such terms Ash had much bigger advantage than May had due to training, battling and building experience for much longer period of time for such type of skirmish. Than May had.

But I thought according to you that May was training all the time off screen. And May had a lot more experience in contests. So what's the problem?

Thus Iris win due to type advantage not being as amazing achievement as you try to present. Being much easier to win battle while having advantage, than not.

Nothing was easy about that battle. Iris straight up beat him in a tournament finals. You should just respect and acknowledge, that not make excuses.

You dont seem to understand what means moving plot forward than im afraid. Because moving plot isnt only conditioned by how much character dreams and its own storyline is fleshed out, but also in how much of influence he/she leaves on journey as whole, other characters and plot which binds everything together.

Tea and Tristan from Yugioh influenced the show but they did nothing to push the plot. Same with Misty. She was just there most of the time in eps that were not about her. Nothing you can say can show otherwise because that is the truth. Her own personal goals, of which there were few, means nothing if it does not advance the overall story. Most of what you post about Misty took place pre Johto, as I was specifically talking about Johto, it doesn't matter. And helping foil Team Rocket plots is irrelevant since it is comic relief. In Johto itself, leading up to the Whirl Cup, she did next to nothing. Sorry.

Point was how Whirl Cup due to tradition, competition you have to face there and story predating from ancient times. All accompanied with special items and title winner gets there gave out impression of potentially being more prestigious and recognized globally than Grand Festival may be.

I think the anime made it quite clear that contests come second to the league. In Sinnoh it was arguably at the same level. The Whirl Cup is in no one's radar but your own.

Whirl Cup along with most of Whirl Islands episodes existed to explain more on Misty career of becoming water pokemon master exploring more on whole concept itself.

Just like contests existed in anime solely to push forward May and Dawn contest careers(otherwise they would just get one random episode like Pokethlon did to reference game quest). Just like gyms exists to advance Ash dream of becoming pokemon master serving as mean to qualify for league. Or just like episodes based around Opelucid gym leader Drayden, dragon village and elders, Junior Cup and Iris participation in Don George tournaments. Served purpose of fleshing out Iris story.

Cognition of you not having problems with such things happening for other girls, Ash, Brock etc. Only singling out Misty focus and story arcs centered on exploration of her character, agenda she had set in mind to follow developing her dreams says ALOT by its own with any further talk being needless.

Contests were created in the games as a side quest. It was brought into the anime to promote the games and May was given it as her quest, then Dawn in Sinnoh. It was not created for them. Neither was the Don battle tournaments. Iris did well in them but only won once, so what you're saying doesn't hold up. None of them even had anything to do with her goal. Whirl cup was created solely to showcase Misty because they were desperate to find something for her to do. Sorry if that offends you but it is true. I have no bias toward Misty, no matter what anyone here says.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Do you honestly think that if Misty was not around, that had she been taken off the team after Indigo that the Whirl Cup would have ever taken place? Of course it wouldn't. That means it existed purely for Misty to shine.

Just like Seaking competition catching tournament, Princess tournament, Alto Mare race, underwater ballets and making name of yourself in such type of performances. Trainers like Marina, Keita, Dorian, Kenzo, Anthony, Harrison etc, etc. All of it existing to focus on Misty dreams, story, her own ambitions and showcase her own qualities as person and trainer.

Your point?

When you construct story about character you introduce side characters which play supporting role in there, develop competitions, missions or tasks depending on nature of anime through which character your writing for can be fleshed out, grow, change, experience defeats and trumphs building experience that way.

Take that out and you have no foundation, ground on which you can develop someone and make him go forward. So im not sure what exactly is controversial about Whirl islands(not just Whirl Cup) being mainly centeed around Misty?

Especially when exact same thing has been done with May/Dawn/Iris, Cilan/Ash etc, etc. Just about any character dedicating entire arcs, events, challenges made or placed in certain area just to have them develop and gain spotlight.

If anything there should had been more of it to flesh out better her dreams, fears and affinities Misty expressed to have and there likely would been if writers had better idea of in what direction to take anime at that time. With constant disagreements between them and between directors and mr. Shudo causing lot of inconsistencies about flow of development itself.

Or there would been more if Misty wasnt replaced staying for Hoenn and onwards.

But even then, she couldn't even score a legit win over Ash. It ended up being a comic relief one. You can say whatever you want about what happened prior, but once the battle came down to the wire, Misty won in a gimmicky, childish way. That tells me not even the writers took this seriously, hence why I don't take the Whirl Cup seriously either.

There was nothing childish or gimmicky in that battle.
Because regardless of how you feel about Psyduck Misty won in end fairly not resorting to cheating taking advantage of situation, finding her ace in hole and Ash being punished for bad misjudgment on his own part.

If writers didnt put thought and effort into it there wouldnt exist build up toward Corsola Capture. Episodes diving in Misty thoughts such as "Dueling Heroes!" or "Around the Whirlpool!".
Reevaluating her stance toward pookemon, questioning her skills as water trainer, realizing how much in reality she loves water pokemon and wants to show whole world eventually how strong, unique and essential they are. Making name for herself and become water pokemon master.

Brimming with insecurity, anxiety and gratitude to be part of such prestigue competition(we can see that in not being able to go sleep looking in sky and feeling nervous of entering tournament, in lot of determination and fiery spirit wanting to go all way through etc).

Developing as result of that stronger belief in knowing she choosed right path to follow but also after defeat from Trinity knowing how thats not easy way to follow and succeed knowing there is still alot of work ahead of her.

Not to mention if writers "didn't cared" its surely weird they took time to introduce backstory about Whirl islands and Whirl Cup. Legends about ancient times based on water heroes and sea spirits, magical items such as sea sapphire scepter posessed by water priestess being pased down by generations having ability to invoke power of water pokemon on surface, Mystical water pendants etc.

Let alone providing explanation behind winner getting title Alpha Omega of water types and its direct connection to water master career.

"That seems like alot of work for something writers didnt took seriously and treated as comedy". /sarcasm

That battle lasted less than a hand full of minutes before it was cut short so how could you just declare it would be a pointless draw? There is no way to know that it would end that way. At least there wasn't a comical ending, which shows the writers cared more about that battle than the one with Misty.

Prior to Cynthia stopping battle, neither side had edge over another. Almost every possible attack Quilava shooted at Pikachu was dodged or countered, just like every Pikachu move was intercepted and blocked.

Both pokemon stood on equal ground and as battle continued on it became apparent more and more how neither Dawn or Ash had answer to change tide of duel in their favor. Being complete draw which Cynthia recognized and decided to cancell.

And if your trying to use semantics on me, this can work both ways. With your argument being countered by "writers caring more for Misty match with Ash since they bothered to finish it unlike it was case with Dawn".

This can work both ways but neither of them holds any true whatsover being just bad reasoning.

First of all, Pikachu lost his power early in the season. By the time he fought excadrill, that was no longer an issue.

It was pretty much issue during course of whole BW with Pikachu in stamina, speed and strength not being even close to level it had in Sinnoh where it had capacity to stand up to legendaries like Latios.

And my point about Iris was that her beating Ash shows that she in one of his strongest companions, not necessarily that she was stronger than he was definitively. Perhaps at that moment she was, but not necessarily by the time they separated. As I have said before, no other female companion had ever beaten Ash in a serious one on one battle but she did. It was a noteworthy moment and something I believe is indicative or Iris' skill. What happened to her in her second battle with Ash doesn't count because of extenuating circumstances involving dragonite's fatigue and going berserk.

Misty's win over Ash doesn't mean much because of the comical way it ended.

You can try to ignore it all you want but just like according to you extenuating circumstances existed in battle at Junior Cup, they were also present in finals of Battle Club.

With Iris battling Ash who was downplayed in knowledge and maturity to the point of forgetting how to catch pokemon. Having to learn about type advantage all over again, doing cardinal mistakes of bringing just one pokemon for gym battle such as Elesa etc, etc.

All accompanied with Excadrill huge type advantage over electric type like Pikachu who in return was exhausted and deprived of its full power.

At least Misty managed to defeat Ash who wasnt regressed having all experience, skill and knowledge gained in past battling him at his full strength at that time.

With only comic factor coming from Psyduck intervention with duel between Totodile and Poliwhir, Poliwhirl and Kingler being attributed by tense atmosphere, skill and quick thinking in how to use surrounding to your advantage. Such as Misty using water as way to have Poliwhirl approach Totodile attacking him from vicinity or using pillar as springboard to increase ots offense moves power like double slap.

With Misty in end winning more so through better choice of attacks, beter resourcefulness and better judgment in eva,uating situation and turning negative factors in advantage. Such as use of Psyduck headache to releasse pressure and deliver striking blow with Ash wrong choice of attacks backfiring on him.

Thus her win not being any less legit over Iris win vs Ash.

That sounds like a copout. AG was almost 200 episodes long. If May was this workhorse that you say she is, it should have been very evident. It wasn't. Dawn trained often during DP, coming up with new techniques and combinations, many of which Ash stole from her for his own use. FACT!!!!!! Ash took nothing from May. He learnt nothing form May. You can't get around that simply by saying, 'well, it could have happened off screen.'

First of all only thing Ash used from Dawn on practical basis was counter shield developing his own variation out of it. If were going to talk about someone being meriturous for Ash growth as trainer than Brock asnd Misty helped much more in that field.

Second we saw plenty of attack improvisations developed from May side. Such as Silver wind razor leaf combo developed from Beautifly and Bulbasaur. Focus ball from Munchlax, powered up uppercut from Blaziken by concentrating strength by using ground as inductor to increase its potential etc.

May training sessions werent showed frequently on screen , but evolutions of her pokemon such as Blaziken, Venusaur, Wartortle, Beautifly , Glaceon. New attacks they learned and growing strength leaving impression on judges, her rivals , Ash, Brock and everyone else only points out toward May working and outting just as much effort, if not even more in her team.

Serving as direct proof how of screen training happened and it was occuring ALOT.

Just like Misty proved to do intense training sessions with her own pokemon of screen.

Proofs:

Talk with water trainer Marina in Orange islands proved when talking about how Misty trains ,cleans and pamper her starfish pokemon Staryu almost every day being commented how that must be reason why one star barrage was enough to faint Tentacruel.

After Whirl islands Misty talked how she went through rigorous training with Corsola being meriturous for managing to come that far scoring top 8 or top 4 place in fampus tournament(still not sure because estimation system and dialogue is ambiguous).

She bragged in Hoenn how she trained her Gyarados at gym, being able to learn fire techniques etc.

Training unlike it was case with Dawn and Sinnoh wasnt showed on screen or if it did it happened very rarely. But that was more due to Original series not being focused on pokemon training and practice with writers not seeng need to reveal this on screen.

But more so on human personalities development and fleshing each other through interactions. Adventure aspect of exploring world and new pokemon, comedy and experimenting with various ideas adding original touch to story as whole.

In contrast Hoenn series had balanced ratio of training, battling and building up on journey itself not taking it to exaggerated proportions like DP did. Where constant on screen training in Ash and Dawn case while making for viewers easier to comprehend from where sudden increase in power came also injected factor of staleness in to it lowering on attention span.


Point is, just because May/Misty etc didnt had same amount of on screen training like Dawn had doesnt mean they trained and practiced any less.

It simply means their work wasnt showed on screen using up time of episodes for something else which in writers mind may had been considered as more important.

As I said before, DP contests were tougher than AG. In AG, all you had to do was show up in a cute outfit, do a little move, and you got through. In DP, you needed a complex move combination just to be considered. Also, Dawn had a much better arc than May did. She had to overcome adversity and self doubt before getting to the finals of GF. May never had anything like that.

As far as being princess of Hoenn, she is still a loser twice removed who has never been in a finals. So it's irrelevant.

Tougher as far as appeal rounds go. But in terms of battling rounds AG contests required lot of physical preparation, bigger resilience of your pokemon and there was more emphasis put on using battling field to your advantage, work on countering opponent attacks using it as trap to bring their own pokemon in unfavorable position. Or outright brute, crude strength in overpowering opposing side.

This was noticeable in May battle against Ogata and his Venusaur in Silver town contest using massive strength of Frenzy plant to try and overpower Combusken through pure strength.

In May using earth ground with Eevee to dodge Brock Marshtamp attacks trying to rely on factor of surprise(although that didnt worked out).

In Lilycove contest May using ceiling as helping hand to damage Kelly Grumpig using flamethrower from Combusken directly on floor which reflected it and dropped like rain . Damaging opponent pokemon and breaking out of psychic control.
Etc, etc.

With battles being more explosive and difficult in general than Sinnoh contest batles seemed to be. At least to me with less focus being directed toward pokemon strength and stamina, and more so on how glamorous and synchronized pokemon techniques are when being used against each other.

Whether Dawn contest journey was better written or not is irrelevant in here and who was stronger trainer out of this 2 girls.

And Ash did show Dawn a lot more respect than May. He missed some of her contests, did not help her much with her preparations for contests, and only took part in that one near the end. Ash took part in Dawn's very first contest, helped her train, traded her one of his pokemon (something else he has never done with a female companion) and took part in other contests. That says a lot to me.

Than i guess you completely ommited fact how Ash was treating May like younger sisters helping her to stand on two feet. Taught her about basics, strategies, how to catch pokemon snd become more profficient as trainer.

Being like backbone supporting May when she lost important matches after seeing her cry such as in dropping out of Grand Festival. Revealing concern when she was in distress and having mutual bond based around admiration, respect and pride coming from Ash side. Not hiding positive impression of May coming that far as coordinator and person in emotional sense compared to her starting days when she was completely cluerless, insecure and with no ambitions of what to do with her future.

Act of May and Ash splitting Terracota ribborn to be symbol and reminder of their friendship serve as pretty good indication to me how their friendship and respect for each other skills and abilities was anything but synthetic.

It is relevant. The only difference between Soledad and Tobias is that she had a silly back story that made no sense and was never brought up again.

How did you expected that Solidad backstory would be brought i again when May as character was replaced from pokemon series and this character existence was dependant mainly on how relevant May would continue to be in show?

Should we than say how Ursula was trivial to Dawn career as well, just because she stopped appearing in pokemon anime with her rivals by default not having anymore excuse to be brought up ever again?

Solidad had more to her character than Tobias with writers dedicating time to explain what are her ambitions, reveal her skills, ups and downs and from where she originates. Along with serving as glue to bind connection between May and Drew and how much they influenced each other(judging by observations of effect May presence brought on her rival and vice versa).

Not covered enough? Yes, but not to the point that you could sort her under criteria as "cheap gimmick".

Hunter J and the Teams are criminals. Harley was taking part in competitions. There is a stark difference there.

Who play dirty, follow no rules, cheat and resort to unfair advantage, tactic asnd technology if needed.

Such as Giovanni being willing to go as far as sending Mewtwo(considered to be among most powerful pokemon ever existed)against challengers. Just to ensure himself clean slate of always winning. Or Hunter J not shying away from using her pokemon like Salamance in setting whole forest upon fire and intentionall trying to kill Ash not showing any respect and compassion.

Yet regardless of that immense power of their pokemon and very high level of advance thinking and complex strategies proved how they are among top class pokemon trainerrs.

Only strengthening my point of Harley being sneaky and malicious not necessarily meaning how his battle abilities are bad at all. Showing to know how to put up very difficult for adversary to overcome obstacles and surrounding which could easily overthrown you.

One of better examples was when he tactically used rest with Octillery and gave him enough time to charge for Octazooka knocking out May Munchlax out of competition. Or when he smartly used Wigglytuff body to inflate itself acting as balloon in easily dodging opponent attacks.

Might not have been weak but he can't be taken seriously. Sorry.

Being hard for you to imagine Drew as someone to be taken seriously doesnt mean he wasnt serious competitor to begin with.

It only means how negative perception you created about his character prevents you from seeing him in any different light than one you were most comfortable to put him in.

It's not a matter of coordinator style but of judging. The judging in Sinnoh is on a whole other level from Hoenn. How you can continue to deny that baffles me. There is no comparison.

One doesnt go without another. In contest battles participants need to have certain amount of skill, strength arising from training their pokemon and developed strategy to reach predispositions in order to even win ribbons, qualify for Grand Festival and provide judges with material by which they can be estimated on ther own value and productivity.

And standards in May contests werent any lower than those in Sinnoh. If anything Hoenn GF had bigger number of participants in GF battle rounds(64) as oppose to Sinnoh GF which had in battling rounds only 32.

Presenting to May and other coordinators double the competition to go against and having to plow your way through bigger amount of battle rounds to win crown.

Once again you're being dishonest by mentioning Jessie and Kenny while ignoring Zoey, Nando and Ursula. And most of the people you mentioned from Hoenn are forgettable jabronis whose battles I can't even remember. Everyone knows Zoey, Nando and Ursula. No one knows the phantom, Erica or Robert.

I never ignored Zoey, Nando or Ursula. But three good coordinators(4 if we count Dawn) in tournament which had over what? More than 60 to 70 participants dont suddenly make this Grand Festival as something i would characterize as having tougher competition than May Grand Festivals had.

With coordinators such as Solidad, Drew, Harley, Robert and his Milotic, Anthony etc seeming as more astute and impressive on stage to me.

Lastly exactly because we dont know nothing about unknown gfaces except fact of qualifying for GF doesnt say anything whether they are weak or strong.

Being forgettable=/= being weak.

Dragonite was both overused and berserk. Hence, extenuating circumstances.

Yet despite this circumstances Dragonite had no issues in completely overpowering Georgia Beartic and Dawn Mamoswine(two pokemon which had tremenduous type advantage over dragons)battling completely on his own relying on personal judgment.

Something others called Iris for with those wins not being merit of her own expertize and strength, but Dragonite itself. Showing he has no trouble in handling trained pokemon without needing trainer on his side.

If your going to apply Iris loss vs Ash in there because of mitigating circumstances, than youll have to concede and admit how there existed alleviating situation in battle between Excadrill and Pikachu which helped Iris to emerge as winner from that match.

You cant play double game in here.

If I remember correctly, Johanna battled Ash and beat him into the ground. You seemed to be implying that a regular trainer is stronger than a coordinator but Ash could do nothing against her. A pokemon using well placed attacks can be as valuable if not more so than a powerhouse. The same can be said for Dawn, who mirrors Johanna in some ways.

I cant recall Johanna battling Ash at all, let alone "destroying him" as you try to present around here.

And yes regular trainers are generally stronger than coordinators if were going to judge them on raw power alone. Based on strongest trainers in world such as E4 members, champions, Frontier Brains, league winners, bosess of criminal organizations, exceptional gym leaders and ace trainers and type specialists like Wallace how/showed.

With their pokemon usually being trained to posess higher stamina, bigger resistemce and more explosiver offense power than pokemon trained for contests.

With case of Junior Cup and Dawn Mamoswine vs Iris Dragonite despite having much bigger advantage over Ash Krookodile or her loss over gym leader Maylene revealed. With Dawn pokemon while being tuned to work in harmony as team and deliver spectacle of shiny colors and sparkles simply not posessing same strength and experience to withstand opposing attack and use it against opponent as normal traditional type of battles demand.


There exists exceptions to every rule and pokemon coordinatior can defeat regular trainer. Just like trainer can outsmart coordinator in their own element, such as contest battles where combination of attacks, blocking opponent moves with style and executing techniques in graceful way plays bigger prevalence than direct strength . Ending as winner.

But based on conditional probabilities, experience, knowledge and strength logic dictates how someone who trained his pokemon specifically for normal battles and work on such type of strategies where outmaneuvering opponent,use terrain to your advantage or work on establishing perfect synchronization with your pokemon like its expected from type specialists .

Would always have advatage over coordinator in regular battles being better equipped for such type of skirmish.

Neither Ash nor Roak could stop it. She did with pokemon she did not have very long with her new spin maneuver. That syas more than enough. Whether she KOed it or not is irrelevant since she was trying to save Ash's like, not win a battle.

It only says how Dawn was able to help stop Aerodactyl from further destroying city. But that doesnt say anything about her skills alone with stunning confused recently revived pokemon from fossil not holding any bigger value than what appeared to be much more powerful pokemon Ash was able to defeat(both trained and wild untrained ones raching legendary levels), or several pokemon May/Misty were able to defeat with some of them once again being in league of legendaries(like Molly Mirage pokemon).

Or stand up their ground who camo of as more powerful than that Aerodactyl. Examples i presented and you conveniently ignored.

Not to mention if were going to talk about someone saving Ash butt, Misty if anything easily wins this competition since she saved Ash three times(from drowining, falling of a cliff or dying to Vileplume poison). Or in managing to stop much bigger menace called giant Tentacruel and army of Tentacools from completely destroying town being one among her several achievements where she stopped disaster or saved others.

Dawn while im not going to deny managed to distract Aerodactyl and buy others time, it didnt seem at any moment like she was about to win that battle with Buneary and Piplup who were way below league of fossil pokemon based on its speed, agility and fighting power. Nor does there exist enough substantial proof how without her intervention Roark, Ash and Kengo would die and whole town would be destroyed.

Drew is weaker than Zoey so beating him wasn't as hard as it was for Dawn to beat Zoey. Plus Zoey has Dawn's number. Similarly, Ursula was a very good coordinator but she could never beat Dawn.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Drew is weaker than Zoey. Argument "Drew is arrogant and pretty boy"you tend to use doesnt tell anything about his knowledge and qualities as coordinator.

Since you can be both arrogant viewing yourself in higher light than others and still be artful trainer. Ignoring fact that Drew changed becoming more respectful and learned from his defeats such as against Solidad. Never being as lofty as you present him to be, certainly not on Paul/Gary level.

Drew ended as runner up in Hoenn Grand Festival, won several other contests and was one of contenders to win Kanto GF ending among top 8.

That alone put him on Zoey level proving to have necessary tools, creativity and dilligence to win Grand Festival.

They were in a contest. Ash was not familiar with the rules, so she had that advantage over him. That's a fact, stop trying to dodge it.

Having advantage doesnt mean your always going to win. It only increase your chances, but thats about it.

And advantage dont mean much if its not used properly with May focus on battling too much like trainer holding her back from reaching higher sphere as coordinaror,. As explained below and played important factor in why she decided to travel on her own and search for her own strategy to become more balanced as coordinator.

But I thought according to you that May was training all the time off screen. And May had a lot more experience in contests. So what's the problem?

Hence why this statement shows you completely missed the point again. Factor in here wasnt in how much May trained and was familiar with contests. But on how May didnt knew how to take advantage of contest battling rounds in earning points and outmaneuvering opponents through something else other than raw strength, speed and direct hits.

Battling under Ash terms and conditions, having as veteran bigger advantage in such type of battle.

Needless to say true as a whole doesn make true of all its parts. Ash proved to be very adaptable and innovative trainer capable of doing well in various competitions not related to traditional battling. Like races, pookeringer, elemental tournaments etc.

So if anything Ash success in coming up to finals of Terracota contest scoring draw with May says more about his innovation as trainer, than May "so called incompetence". With draw scored against veteran like Ash being nothing to scoff at.

Nothing was easy about that battle. Iris straight up beat him in a tournament finals. You should just respect and acknowledge, that not make excuses.

I never said it was easy battle. But it wasnt so much impressive as you try to make it either, Given all disadvantages and mitigating circumstances taking place there going in Iris favor.

Hence why her win over Ash just like it was case with Misty win in water cup cannot be used as reliable evidence on how skilled and strong as trainers those 2 are.

Especially with character like Ash whose strength fluctuate and drops or increases randomly, Going from trainer capable of defeating chief of Battle Frontier(Brandon)to someone who got outclassed by complete rookie called Trip and just recently received Snivy.

But if we absolutely have to measure their strength on how well this girls fared vs Ash. Than Misty win in my opinion holds more merit than Iris, for simple fact of Misty battling Ash who didnt had weakened pokemon and who as Orange league champion and recognized trainer by several people already had his experience and knowledge builded up previously not going through reset.

Tea and Tristan from Yugioh influenced the show but they did nothing to push the plot. Same with Misty. She was just there most of the time in eps that were not about her. Nothing you can say can show otherwise because that is the truth. Her own personal goals, of which there were few, means nothing if it does not advance the overall story. Most of what you post about Misty took place pre Johto, as I was specifically talking about Johto, it doesn't matter. And helping foil Team Rocket plots is irrelevant since it is comic relief. In Johto itself, leading up to the Whirl Cup, she did next to nothing. Sorry.

Except unlike Tea and Tristan who never dueled(aside from 2 to 3 occasions top), had no focus on their own personal agendas and dreams. Never impacted course of Yugi and other character stories exiting there to be emotional anchor for others to rely on, provide comedy and fulfilling role of cheerleaders.

Misty role and importance was far bigger than this two ever had in Yugioh series. Bringing up in question entire credibility behind your posts and if i should even take you seriously when you put Misty from pokemon series on Tea/Tristan level?

Who had several episodes dedicated to exploration of her personality and more dreams than any other main girl had. Wanting to become water master and learn about all kind of secrets revolved around ocean and water specie. Wanted to meet powerful legendary water pokemon catching it, become renowned as strong like her idol Lorelei reaching E4 level. Was interested in romance and pairing others up fishing, playing roe of detective etc.

Had her own fears, traumas and insecurity learning how to break out of sister shadow. Learned to develop more patience and tolerance toward others around herself and pokemon like Psyduck. Had romantic subplot regarding her feelings for Ash and concerns of what she should do about it bringing dilemma inside character(such as whether to stay with Rudy or continue traveling for example).

Directly influenced pokemon anime by mentoring Ash, serving as voice of reason in balancing out his irrational thinking, Brock hormones and fighting for justice, Often standing up for others, helping disclose villain tricks, saving other people lives or whole cities such as Porta Vista.

Alongside often finding solution to problems and helping advance journey through her common sense, curiosity and sharp mind bringing balance, charisma and lot of identity to anime. Being far more iconic for pokemon playing huge role in becoming popular than Tea/Tristan ever were for Yugioh.
Her immense popularity only adds to that.

And most of all you can say all you want how episodes focused on Misty didnt advanced anything but her character. But so did contests not helping to progress anyone else except May/Dawn themselves in reality for most part. Difference is that Misty in several episodes not focused on her in one way or another influenced other charactrers and story in dealing with danger or various mysteries not being active only when episode was about her own plots.

And im not sure what your talking about regarding Johto, but i already mentioned in previous posts why claim "Misty did nothing until Whirl Cup in Johto" is completely false.

Explained on 4th page: wrapped up in spoiler tag named "Misty apparently doing nothing".

Its not my problem that you ignore evidence.

I think the anime made it quite clear that contests come second to the league. In Sinnoh it was arguably at the same level. The Whirl Cup is in no one's radar but your own.

Whirl Cup was a single tournament, contests are group of mini competitions spread over whole region.

Having unlike contests background and explained tradition behind itself. Was known on global level gathering powerful water experts from all parts of world and requires much more training and planning ahead since it doesnt happen on annual basis.

Also unlike contests which grant you one ribbon to earn right to enter GF. In Whirl Cup through act of winning you come closer toard achievement of goal of becoming water master through prestige title which dates back from ancient times .

Just because contests received more exposition on localized level, doesnt mean they hold same level of prestigue and importance like Whirl Cup received. Not thinking that i exaggerate when i say how in terms of fame its not behind Grand Festival by any margin.

Contests were created in the games as a side quest. It was brought into the anime to promote the games and May was given it as her quest, then Dawn in Sinnoh. It was not created for them. Neither was the Don battle tournaments. Iris did well in them but only won once, so what you're saying doesn't hold up. None of them even had anything to do with her goal. Whirl cup was created solely to showcase Misty because they were desperate to find something for her to do. Sorry if that offends you but it is true. I have no bias toward Misty, no matter what anyone here says.

I never said contests were created for May/Dawn but fact of continuing to exist in main series aside from one or two episode introduction like other game quests receive. Should tell you how only reason why storyline dragged over whole region was done solely to give May and Dawn as characters way to shine and be elevated as persons and trainers .

If writers choosed not to make May/Dawn coordinators contests would pass of in anime as small, trivial side quest which got introduced in one episode or at best couple of them and never got brought up again. Just like Secret bases were, Pokethlon, Pokemon ranger career, Pokemon Musicals etc.

You cant do cherry picking in here. If you claim how Whirl Cup was created solely for Misty to adcance her goal, than same can be said for contests. Being extended in story arc from writers side just to give May/Dawn some way to evolve forward.

Only difference is how contests came from games, while Whirl Cup came from writers head being reflect of their own imagination.

Also what you view as "desperate" i view as creative, original way to explore more on one of character aspects, better showcase specific specie of pokemon out there who happen to be most abundant in world.

Not being something taken up from games doesnt mean its any less important and valuable for her development. Just like contests were important for May/Dawn.

And no Whirl Cup wasnt any instance which focused on Misty storyline and dreams of becoming water master. So statement of this being "desperate way to do something with character" doesnt stand at all. With Misty pursuing anime exclusive career not depending on game quests to have way to progress forward and open liberty for writers to take her in any direction they want.

Which can be limiting if you depend on game features as Dawn return in BW more than well enough showed not being able to gain anything from coming there due to contests being nonexistant.

p.s. And speaking of bias regarding Misty; i think signature and always negative remarks said about character, attempts to downplay her role in several threads out there speak otherwise.

 

[PkmnFan4Ever]

DAWN. Even though i don't like her a single bit she seems to be the strongest imo.

 

[Pepsi_Plunge]

Which begs the question, why is Brock so far down? He's an experienced gym leader and has shown himself to be more than capable in any battling situation..

Like, Iris gets a free pass to climb the ranks because OP Dragonite, but Brock with the Steelix he had since he was ten, along with multiple other evolved/strong Pokemon, gets dragged down to almost Tracey's level?

That's some serious shade..

Iris showed great technique when battling specially when she owned Kenyan Sawk with her Emolga, its not just because she has a dragonite sher has skill.

I'm going to vote Iris otherwise I would vote Dent or Clemont because they also have shown to be good strategists.

Fully expecting the princess to be first because she has evolved pokemon even though battle is not just that.

As for people defending Takeshi and Kasumi choices, Clemont and Dent showed a lot more skill than both of those if we are talking about gym leader companions.

Edit: and boom fanboys ftw, voting on their girls!!! I can't believe Clemont has 0 votes and Dent only has 1, like I said I find Iris because of what she is shown to be the best but Dent and Clemont are the same or close to her, they should both have more votes, the ones leading are the ones with less battling experience and that showed less skill in battle because thats not their thing, pathetic lol.

As far as I'm concerned:
Iris/Dent/Clemont
Takeshi/Kasumi
Haruka/Hikari
Kenji
Serena

 

[chalkus]

Just like Seaking competition catching tournament, Princess tournament, Alto Mare race, underwater ballets and making name of yourself in such type of performances. Trainers like Marina, Keita, Dorian, Kenzo, Anthony, Harrison etc, etc. All of it existing to focus on Misty dreams, story, her own ambitions and showcase her own qualities as person and trainer.

Your point?

My point is that you tried to make it seem that the Whirl Cup was this elaborate tournament that was bigger and better than contests when in reality it was just a plot device created to give something for Misty to do. You can't use it to show her strength because it was tailor made to make her look good to begin with.

There was nothing childish or gimmicky in that battle.
Because regardless of how you feel about Psyduck Misty won in end fairly not resorting to cheating taking advantage of situation, finding her ace in hole and Ash being punished for bad misjudgment on his own part.

Not to mention if writers "didn't cared" its surely weird they took time to introduce backstory about Whirl islands and Whirl Cup. Legends about ancient times based on water heroes and sea spirits, magical items such as sea sapphire scepter posessed by water priestess being pased down by generations having ability to invoke power of water pokemon on surface, Mystical water pendants etc.

Let alone providing explanation behind winner getting title Alpha Omega of water types and its direct connection to water master career.

"That seems like alot of work for something writers didnt took seriously and treated as comedy". /sarcasm

Misty defeated Ash in a comical way. FACT!!!!!!! It wasn't serious in the least so how can you take it so seriously. The Alpha Omega title doesn't mean anything since no one has mentioned in any way since the end of the Whirl Cup. Sorry but that is just how it is.

It was pretty much issue during course of whole BW with Pikachu in stamina, speed and strength not being even close to level it had in Sinnoh where it had capacity to stand up to legendaries like Latios.

The cause of all that was pikachu being rewritten just like Ash was. Him losing his powers only lasted a little while. It had no effect later on in the anime.

You can try to ignore it all you want but just like according to you extenuating circumstances existed in battle at Junior Cup, they were also present in finals of Battle Club.

With Iris battling Ash who was downplayed in knowledge and maturity to the point of forgetting how to catch pokemon. Having to learn about type advantage all over again, doing cardinal mistakes of bringing just one pokemon for gym battle such as Elesa etc, etc.

All accompanied with Excadrill huge type advantage over electric type like Pikachu who in return was exhausted and deprived of its full power.

At least Misty managed to defeat Ash who wasnt regressed having all experience, skill and knowledge gained in past battling him at his full strength at that time.

With only comic factor coming from Psyduck intervention with duel between Totodile and Poliwhir, Poliwhirl and Kingler being attributed by tense atmosphere, skill and quick thinking in how to use surrounding to your advantage. Such as Misty using water as way to have Poliwhirl approach Totodile attacking him from vicinity or using pillar as springboard to increase ots offense moves power like double slap.

With Misty in end winning more so through better choice of attacks, beter resourcefulness and better judgment in eva,uating situation and turning negative factors in advantage. Such as use of Psyduck headache to releasse pressure and deliver striking blow with Ash wrong choice of attacks backfiring on him.

Thus her win not being any less legit over Iris win vs Ash.

OF course Ash was not regressed in Whirl Cup because that was still relatively early in the show's run compared to Best Wishes. The Ash reset after every region did not exist yet. However, at that time, how good of a trainer was he? Ash was still getting pity wins in that region like he got from Whitney. Imo, it was not until he beat Gary that he really proved himself. And again, it does not matter what he did during his battle with Misty, the ending is paramount, and the ending was a big joke. Hence, the writers clearly meant for the audience to not take it seriously either.

And whether Ash was regressed from other regions has nothing to do with his battles relative to the competition he faced within Unova. You have been arguing so far that Ash was stronger than Iris, but now it seems you are saying that Iris was stronger due his regression. Regardless, as I have said before, Ash has gone head to head with Gym Leaders with type advantage and/or had more powerful pokemon and has managed to come out on top. Against Iris he failed miserably and there was no gimmicky ending like with Misty. Again, you cannot get around that no matter what excuses you use.

Point is, just because May/Misty etc didnt had same amount of on screen training like Dawn had doesnt mean they trained and practiced any less.

It simply means their work wasnt showed on screen using up time of episodes for something else which in writers mind may had been considered as more important.

Ash stole the spin move, which he used in every single gym battle he had and which he needed to defeat Roak after he lost to him. He also needed Dawn's buizel to win badges 3 and 4. He also used ice aqua jet, Dawn's combinaton, during the series. So no, it was not just counter shield. without Dawn's techniques, he would have been smoked in Sinnoh.

If May's techs were so good, why didn't ash use any of them? Because they were too good for him?

And your point of May doing a ton of training, more than even Dawn, entirely off screen I find absurd. If it was true, they would have shown it, case closed. Hoenn did not have so much going on that they could not.

With battles being more explosive and difficult in general than Sinnoh contest batles seemed to be. At least to me with less focus being directed toward pokemon strength and stamina, and more so on how glamorous and synchronized pokemon techniques are when being used against each other.

Whether Dawn contest journey was better written or not is irrelevant in here and who was stronger trainer out of this 2 girls.

How can you keep saying Hoenn contests were better? Sinnoh ramped up every aspect of contests, from the appeals round to the contest battles themselves. So much strategy was needed just to make an impression in them. Just look at Dawn's battles with Ursula and Zoey, and Nando's battle with Zoey. Even Ash had a respectable battle here and there. Hoenn just did not compare, and it is not my opinion, it is a FACT!!!!!!!! And whether Dawn was a better coordinator than May does matter as it helps determine who was the better trainer overall.

Than i guess you completely ommited fact how Ash was treating May like younger sisters helping her to stand on two feet. Taught her about basics, strategies, how to catch pokemon snd become more profficient as trainer.

Being like backbone supporting May when she lost important matches after seeing her cry such as in dropping out of Grand Festival. Revealing concern when she was in distress and having mutual bond based around admiration, respect and pride coming from Ash side. Not hiding positive impression of May coming that far as coordinator and person in emotional sense compared to her starting days when she was completely cluerless, insecure and with no ambitions of what to do with her future.

Act of May and Ash splitting Terracota ribborn to be symbol and reminder of their friendship serve as pretty good indication to me how their friendship and respect for each other skills and abilities was anything but synthetic.

And yet he did not attend some of her contests as opposed to all of Dawn's. He did not participate in a contest in AG until near the end, but took part in Dawn's first and helped her in her journey where he could. But yeah, he sure showed May a lot more respect.

Solidad had more to her character than Tobias with writers dedicating time to explain what are her ambitions, reveal her skills, ups and downs and from where she originates. Along with serving as glue to bind connection between May and Drew and how much they influenced each other(judging by observations of effect May presence brought on her rival and vice versa).

Not covered enough? Yes, but not to the point that you could sort her under criteria as "cheap gimmick".

Just because Soledad had a connection to Brock does not change the fact that she was essentially Tobias before Tobias. My point still stands.

Only strengthening my point of Harley being sneaky and malicious not necessarily meaning how his battle abilities are bad at all. Showing to know how to put up very difficult for adversary to overcome obstacles and surrounding which could easily overthrown you.

One of better examples was when he tactically used rest with Octillery and gave him enough time to charge for Octazooka knocking out May Munchlax out of competition. Or when he smartly used Wigglytuff body to inflate itself acting as balloon in easily dodging opponent attacks.

Again, the Teams are comprised of criminal lowlifes. Of course they aren't going to play fair, they aren't even competing in anything. Harley was in a competition but had to resort to cheap tactics all the time that blew in his face. Again, no getting around that. And he was May's number 2 competition. Please.

I never ignored Zoey, Nando or Ursula. But three good coordinators(4 if we count Dawn) in tournament which had over what? More than 60 to 70 participants dont suddenly make this Grand Festival as something i would characterize as having tougher competition than May Grand Festivals had.

With coordinators such as Solidad, Drew, Harley, Robert and his Milotic, Anthony etc seeming as more astute and impressive on stage to me.

Lastly exactly because we dont know nothing about unknown gfaces except fact of qualifying for GF doesnt say anything whether they are weak or strong.

Being forgettable=/= being weak.

I think the fact you are still trying to make me believe that jabronis like Robert and Anthony are on par with Ursula, Nando and Zoey is a joke. If they were as good as you say they are, they would have been memorable. Fact is, they weren't. Ursula, Nando and Zoey took part in phenomenal battles, your Hoenn guys did not.

Yet despite this circumstances Dragonite had no issues in completely overpowering Georgia Beartic and Dawn Mamoswine(two pokemon which had tremenduous type advantage over dragons)battling completely on his own relying on personal judgment.

Something others called Iris for with those wins not being merit of her own expertize and strength, but Dragonite itself. Showing he has no trouble in handling trained pokemon without needing trainer on his side.

If your going to apply Iris loss vs Ash in there because of mitigating circumstances, than youll have to concede and admit how there existed alleviating situation in battle between Excadrill and Pikachu which helped Iris to emerge as winner from that match.

You cant play double game in here.

The only circumstance was that Iris had type advantage, nothing more. Iris is the youngest dragonite trainer that I can remember and it did not always listen to her, as the tournament showed. Dragonite was relatively fresh those early rounds, hence why it could just win with brute force. It was also winning against Ash when it was listening to Iris, but lost after it lost control and started doing its own thing. I'm not playing the double game, I have been consistent throughout.

It only says how Dawn was able to help stop Aerodactyl from further destroying city. But that doesnt say anything about her skills alone with stunning confused recently revived pokemon from fossil not holding any bigger value than what appeared to be much more powerful pokemon Ash was able to defeat(both trained and wild untrained ones raching legendary levels), or several pokemon May/Misty were able to defeat with some of them once again being in league of legendaries(like Molly Mirage pokemon).

Fact is Dawn succeeded where Ash and Roak failed. You can't take that away from her. And you have no way of knowing whether she couldn't have defeated aerodactyl. Her goal was to save Ash, not take the win.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Drew is weaker than Zoey. Argument "Drew is arrogant and pretty boy"you tend to use doesnt tell anything about his knowledge and qualities as coordinator.

Since you can be both arrogant viewing yourself in higher light than others and still be artful trainer. Ignoring fact that Drew changed becoming more respectful and learned from his defeats such as against Solidad. Never being as lofty as you present him to be, certainly not on Paul/Gary level.

Drew ended as runner up in Hoenn Grand Festival, won several other contests and was one of contenders to win Kanto GF ending among top 8.

That alone put him on Zoey level proving to have necessary tools, creativity and dilligence to win Grand Festival.

So you're saying that Frew being bounced out of two GFs makes him stronger than someone who won it all? Wow! I don't even know how to respond to that.

Having advantage doesnt mean your always going to win. It only increase your chances, but thats about it.

You should remember that when discussing Iris' win over Ash.

Except unlike Tea and Tristan who never dueled(aside from 2 to 3 occasions top), had no focus on their own personal agendas and dreams. Never impacted course of Yugi and other character stories exiting there to be emotional anchor for others to rely on, provide comedy and fulfilling role of cheerleaders.

Misty role and importance was far bigger than this two ever had in Yugioh series. Bringing up in question entire credibility behind your posts and if i should even take you seriously when you put Misty from pokemon series on Tea/Tristan level?

Who had several episodes dedicated to exploration of her personality and more dreams than any other main girl had. Wanting to become water master and learn about all kind of secrets revolved around ocean and water specie. Wanted to meet powerful legendary water pokemon catching it, become renowned as strong like her idol Lorelei reaching E4 level. Was interested in romance and pairing others up fishing, playing roe of detective etc.

Had her own fears, traumas and insecurity learning how to break out of sister shadow. Learned to develop more patience and tolerance toward others around herself and pokemon like Psyduck. Had romantic subplot regarding her feelings for Ash and concerns of what she should do about it bringing dilemma inside character(such as whether to stay with Rudy or continue traveling for example).

Directly influenced pokemon anime by mentoring Ash, serving as voice of reason in balancing out his irrational thinking, Brock hormones and fighting for justice, Often standing up for others, helping disclose villain tricks, saving other people lives or whole cities such as Porta Vista.

Alongside often finding solution to problems and helping advance journey through her common sense, curiosity and sharp mind bringing balance, charisma and lot of identity to anime. Being far more iconic for pokemon playing huge role in becoming popular than Tea/Tristan ever were for Yugioh.
Her immense popularity only adds to that.

And most of all you can say all you want how episodes focused on Misty didnt advanced anything but her character. But so did contests not helping to progress anyone else except May/Dawn themselves in reality for most part. Difference is that Misty in several episodes not focused on her in one way or another influenced other charactrers and story in dealing with danger or various mysteries not being active only when episode was about her own plots.

And im not sure what your talking about regarding Johto, but i already mentioned in previous posts why claim "Misty did nothing until Whirl Cup in Johto" is completely false.

Explained on 4th page: wrapped up in spoiler tag named "Misty apparently doing nothing".

Its not my problem that you ignore evidence.

I ignored nothing. Everything you say about Misty could be wrapped up in I am certain a fraction of the time she was on screen. Hence, it all amounts to trite. As for Dawn, he contest journey did overlap with Ash's several times, for example:

1. trading Ash her buizel, which was instrumental in his next two gym battles
2. allowing Ash to copy her moves like counter shield and spin move
3. inspiring Ash to use contest moves in battles, which is something your supposedly superior May never did
4. challenging Maylene to snap her out of her funk
5. getting Ash to take part in more contests, opening his mind to new possibilities in his own battling

All of which was significant, and was a lot more than any other girl before her could do.

p.s. And speaking of bias regarding Misty; i think signature and always negative remarks said about character, attempts to downplay her role in several threads out there speak otherwise.

My sig is the way it is because of Misty fans neg repping me over the years. Has nothing to do with the character herself. And my comments about Misty are my reflection of her being inferior to better characters since her hayday. I personally think most fans are allowing nostalgia to cloud their judgement when referencing her. Just how I feel about it, no malice intended.

 

[Ilikepiex7]

One big difference between May and Dawn was that May won a lot more of her contest by knocking out the opponent's pokemon while Dawn normally won by just having more points at the end which shows a huge difference in their battle styles. This is contest of won is the strongest has many factors involving the number of pokemon owned which puts Clain, Tracey, Iris, and Serena at disadvantage due not owing at least the minimum six required for a full battle,

 

[Creyk]

Dawn is obviously the strongest.
I mean, have you seen the anime?
It's not even a question

 

[Vernikova]

The problem with arguing for older characters like Misty is that they have worse feats because they were around at the time when Ash was weak. Skimming through the pages, I saw someone mention that Misty beat Ash in two serious battles in Johto. I ask "so what"? Johto Ash is a scrub. I wouldn't wash my bathroom with him. Ash was much stronger when May battled him and in Sinnoh. Misty suffers because her feats are against a much weaker Ash.

Brock gets downplayed because his Pokemon don't have impressive battle feats because he doesn't battle often. Someone mentioned Steelix earlier, and I ask what has Steelix done in battle? Nothing that would match May's feats, that's for sure.

The DP series has the strongest trainers in general-trainer and coordinator alike, I believe. Then comes AG, and XY looks like it'll be around AG levels by the end of it. Beating trainers from Johto and Kanto, unless they're at Elite Four level or something, just isn't impressive by the time the Hoenn League rolls around. Hell, Charizard's (barring the Entei movie, but that brings about its own set of problems like high-ends and powerscaling) and Pikachu's best feats come from AG.

I don't see why people are confused. It's very straightforward. Brock doesn't have many battling feats so he suffers. Misty's best feats come from Johto and so she suffers. Tracey doesn't have many battling feats and so he suffers.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

My point is that you tried to make it seem that the Whirl Cup was this elaborate tournament that was bigger and better than contests when in reality it was just a plot device created to give something for Misty to do. You can't use it to show her strength because it was tailor made to make her look good to begin with.

Everything in this show is than plot device created by writers to give main characters something to do and "look good". Writers decision to expand on contests creating arc spread across region, all kind of tournaments like Don George battle clubs, Pokeringer, Pokemon Summer camp, Grand Festivals etc, etc.

Just about anything in this series if we go by your logic holds no validity whatsoever. Since primary purpose behind this being showed to begin with on screen is to develop main characters and showcase them in positive light usually.

Hence not being by yor standards "authoritative measure of May, Dawn, Ash, Iris, just about anyone strength".

Whirl Cup was made to advance on more substantial basis Misty story of becoming water pokemon master and reveal better on how can someone acquire this title. It existed to give character deveopment to above mentioned character and test out how skilled, perceptive and knowledgeable she is as trainer.


Holding as much ground in terms of credibillity like Grand Festivals in May/Dawn case, gym battles and league championship in Ash case, elemental tournaments or specific type of competitions have in determining how gifted someone is as person or isnt when going up against others.

Entire premise behind your argument is:
-"Whirl Cup didn't existed in games, therefore its irrelevant and shouldn't be used as measurement for anything".

Or in other words:
A or B.

Not A.
Therefore not being case for B.

Being very bad reasoning and logical fallacy.

Using plots in anime only when it serve purpose to strengthen argument of characters your arguing about such as Dawn and Iris. While ignoring every other plot which goes in this case in Misty and May favor.

Point being how something not originating from game isnt any less vauable and credible holding same purpose as game quests:
-to develop characters about who this is about

-explore on their ambitions and agenda

-push concept of adventure forward.

Otherwise we could say how Dawn rivals such as Ursula, Nando, Zoey. Dragon village and all those trainers Iris defeared prior to meeting Ash. Rivals such as Paul or entire leagues such as Orange Islands championship, Wallace Cup etc.

Are irrelevant and pointless being tailored just to glorify main characters around who this was based.
Which is absurd to claim.

Misty defeated Ash in a comical way. FACT!!!!!!! It wasn't serious in the least so how can you take it so seriously. The Alpha Omega title doesn't mean anything since no one has mentioned in any way since the end of the Whirl Cup. Sorry but that is just how it is.

Only comical part was end of battle. Which was drama mixed with humor in order to make final battle between Ash and Misty knitted with more suspense.

But does that devalue Misty achievement? No it doesn't because Misty still defeated Ash by using better choice of attacks, more effective strategy and proved through whole battle to be more skilled in using water pokemon.
As examples with Poliwhirl, Corsola and Goldeen later in Coastline gym i presented revealed.

Contrary to your belief Whirl Cup was mentioned several times after everything finished as well. Such as in episode about Diglett village and thiefs riding Dugtrio, when meeting with Sakura reflecting on how much she accomplished and learned from that tournament. In episode abnout Cleffa dreaming of becoming water master and finding resolve to be strongest water trainer etc, etc.

Mentions of water pokemon master career, Whirl Cup etc stopped being brought back for simple reason of Misty being replaced. With future main characters not aiming to achieve this dream or being water specialists to warrant inclusion of water related themes or taking avantage on more notable level of already existing ones.
Misty leaving also resulted in underwater battle concept being almost nonexistant in future sagas simply because new characters didnt had careers and dreams tied to this to justify their existence.

For same reason contests and Grand Festivals stop being mentioned once May and Dawn left main cast,or dragon related subjects once Iris was replaced, idea of pokemon breeding etc, etc due to new characters not benefiting from their existence.

Thats why water related events like Whirl Cup stop being mentioned, but im sure you already know this.

The cause of all that was pikachu being rewritten just like Ash was. Him losing his powers only lasted a little while. It had no effect later on in the anime.

Sure if we by later mean end of Best Wishes and now Kalos. But through majority of Unova Pikachu powers were downplayed and nowhere near full potential of his own abilities it used to have in Sinnoh or hel even Hoenn/Johto.

During Ash battle vs Iris in Battle Club Pikachu was clearly weakened and regressed with conditions under match took place bringing to Iris bigger advantage than just selection of pokemon types.

OF course Ash was not regressed in Whirl Cup because that was still relatively early in the show's run compared to Best Wishes. The Ash reset after every region did not exist yet. However, at that time, how good of a trainer was he? Ash was still getting pity wins in that region like he got from Whitney. Imo, it was not until he beat Gary that he really proved himself. And again, it does not matter what he did during his battle with Misty, the ending is paramount, and the ending was a big joke. Hence, the writers clearly meant for the audience to not take it seriously either.

Let see; we are talking about Ash who up until Whirl Cup came top 16 in Indigo league out of 250+ participants. Defeated 16 gyms, conquered Orange league and dethroned Drake with his seemingly unstoppable Dragonite becoming champion, won several events such as Bug catching contest, Flame Athon race , P1 Grand Prix with Primeape, Sumo conference with Snorlax, Tauros competition when Jessie exchanged Lickitung for Wobbuffet etc, etc.

Proved his worth as trainer to several pokemon experts recognizing talent in him and saved world more than once(such as in convincing Mewtwo to give humans another chance, restoring nature in balance regarding legendary birds and Lugia, stopped Rocket organization plans multiple times by than and so on.

So i say Ash was respectable force to deal with by time Whirl islands started.

As for battle against Misty, measurement of someone skill is judged by whole match rather than one specific scene.

And whole battle between them as i mentioned numerous times by now and you conveniently choose to ignore singling out only scenes which support your argument; was characterized by tense atmosphere, diverse use of pokemon attacks, skills, resourcefulness in using terrain, surrounding such as pillars in water stadium and creativity. As battle between Totodile and Poliwhirl, Poliwhirl and Kingler duel showed.

But even Psyduck vs Kingler, because Misty regardless of circumstances showed to be more adaptive, knowedgeable and cunning in that battle knowing how to take advantage of whole situation and win.

Only reason why writers decided that Psyduck pops out of pokeball in what it appeared as clearly important battle for both Ash and Misty having competitive flare between themselves. Was done probably to add more tension through this humorous element in whole battle and relieve on pressure surrounding both characters.

But for all intents and purposes, amount of effort, build up, character development and empasis writers put in accentuating on importance of Whirl Cup for Misty character and water master career.

Shows nothing else but message from writers side how this wasn't side away joke, but valid tournament where knowledge, innovation and planning ahead is required.

And whether Ash was regressed from other regions has nothing to do with his battles relative to the competition he faced within Unova. You have been arguing so far that Ash was stronger than Iris, but now it seems you are saying that Iris was stronger due his regression. Regardless, as I have said before, Ash has gone head to head with Gym Leaders with type advantage and/or had more powerful pokemon and has managed to come out on top. Against Iris he failed miserably and there was no gimmicky ending like with Misty. Again, you cannot get around that no matter what excuses you use.

It has everything to do with it because unlike Misty:
1.)-Iris defeat against Ash happened under extenuating circumstances not having just type advantage, but also battling regressed in experience and trainer abilities Ash and Pikachu.

Having situation aligned to her favor, while with Misty it was opposite when Psyduck popped out being in unfavorable position. Yet she still managed to defeat Ash fairly and play herself out of what seemed to be losing situation.

Which says alot about her perception, composure and wit as battler.

2.)-win against Ash who is known for writers not being consistent with his character development and faithful to amount of knowledge, skill and strength acquired before cannot be used as credible indication of any of Ash traveling companions strength or talent they posess as trainers.

Especially when your winning against someone who was reset not being much to write home about.

We are starting to run in circles and your constantly repeating yourself ignoring or overlooking points which brings in question veracaity of your statements.

Not seeing any point in further continuing to discuss this if nothing new in this debate is provided on table.

Ash stole the spin move, which he used in every single gym battle he had and which he needed to defeat Roak after he lost to him. He also needed Dawn's buizel to win badges 3 and 4. He also used ice aqua jet, Dawn's combinaton, during the series. So no, it was not just counter shield. without Dawn's techniques, he would have been smoked in Sinnoh.

If May's techs were so good, why didn't ash use any of them? Because they were too good for him?

And how many times did we saw Ash using this techniques on regular basis, except counter shield in Sinnoh?
Speaking of which counter shield wasn't even Dawn idea, but Ash's move he improvised and perfected after seeing way coordinators like her combine pokemon techniques in combination with spinning, dodging etc.

Likewise your giving Dawn way too much credit if you seriously believe how it was her merit for Ash defeating rivals like Paul or coming top 4 in Lily of Valley conference. Because most hard work and preparation Ash made on his own ,learning from defeats, adjusting to different battle style and changing approach in way he trained his pokemon and worked on extracting their full strength on surface.

Such as teaching Grotle to swallov energy ball increasing its power, Infernape as Chimchar using piece of ice as skateboard to increase its maneuverability in battle against Candice on ice field, teaching Buizel moves such as water pulse and ice punch etcetera, etcetera.

If anything using water pulse underwater to increase speed and efficiency of Buizel attacks against Crasher Wake, or aqua pulse as another improvised move Ash came up with vs Maylene were more decisive in those battles. Than ice aqua yet.

Buizel continuing to use some of techniques Dawn taught him prior to trade doesnt mean it was Dawn who won badges for Ash. Because it was Ash strategy, choice of attacks and ablity to use Buizel techniques in optimal and well timed manner which brought him wins on table.

Having strong pokemon means nothing if you as trainer dont know or arent capable of utilizing its power effectively.
Hence being Ash merit for wins Buizel accomplished under him.

And your point of May doing a ton of training, more than even Dawn, entirely off screen I find absurd. If it was true, they would have shown it, case closed. Hoenn did not have so much going on that they could not.

Something doesnt need to be showed to be necessarily true. Or we could claim this for just about anything taking place of screen/beside the scenes in this show such as.

"If Iris 99 win record in dragon village was true, writers would show her competitiors and those battles to prove it!"

"If May entered contests in Johto writers would show them instead of showing just ribbons which could be stolen or acquired by some other means!"

"If Ash had father or his mother ever had a husband it would be shown!"

Some of this statements are deliberately inflated to extremes only to point out absurdity in claim of something not being shown not happening.

Ignoring conditional and prior probabilities on which educated guess can be formed.

To better conjure this up here is example:
"Let say there is meteor rain hitting earth and you are deep down under ground in miner or shelter for example being impossible to see and hear whats happening on surface".

Would that mean how just because you werent able to see it , it didnt happened?

Not at all with absence of visual evidence not erasing probability of something or someone existence. Or something being truth.

Granted absence of evidence can be used two ways as means to question veracity behind someone claim.

However going by number of evolutions in May team, improvised techniques such as Silver wind, Focus ball, uppercut etc coming from her pokemon or references to of screen training existing on regular basis.

As proofs with of screen references to Misty Staryu, Gyarados, Corsola etc i presented earlier in my post were showed or logical inference of gym leaders often training their pokemon to adjust power when facing challengers and searching for ways how to overcome type disadvantage.

Adding to sttrength of my claim how just because May training sessions were showed less on screen than Dawn's, doesnt mean that Dawn trained more than her. Or any other girl or male out of Ash companions who are battlers by profession.

How can you keep saying Hoenn contests were better? Sinnoh ramped up every aspect of contests, from the appeals round to the contest battles themselves. So much strategy was needed just to make an impression in them. Just look at Dawn's battles with Ursula and Zoey, and Nando's battle with Zoey. Even Ash had a respectable battle here and there. Hoenn just did not compare, and it is not my opinion, it is a FACT!!!!!!!! And whether Dawn was a better coordinator than May does matter as it helps determine who was the better trainer overall.

I didn't said how Hoenn contests were better, but everything revealed in them gave out impression of being more difficult when it comes to battle rounds.

Sinnoh contests improved in terms of colors and making performance look flashier and more glamorous, but something looking visually more attractive doesnt necessarily mean its going to be be tougher challenge.

Not at all.

In general main focus of contests in Sinnoh was more so on appeals and synchronization between coordinator and pokemon when trying to send some message and theme to audience and judges through mixed up attacks your pokemon execute.

Being often translated with way battles were held in DP contests lacking same amount of brute force, power, destruction and intensity May contest battles were known for. From fact of May Grand Festivals such as Hoenn and Kanto having much higher competition with 230 and 270 give or take participants entering each of this festivals respectively.

In comparison Sinnoh Grand Festival only had 108 participants.

To Dawn facing what seemed in my opinion easier competition compared to coordinators May faced such as Robert and Milotic, Solidad, Drew or Harley.

Or fact how pokemon May faced contained judging from looks of it more stamina and being bulkier in strength.

Like Phantom masked coordinator dominating whole competition and being undefeated before that with devastating Will o Wisp and focus punch strategy.
Kelly Grumpig and psychic moves mixed with psychokinesis completely immobilizing opponent and forcing May to use some of weirdest and most unorthodox decisions to get herself out of losing positon. Such as firing flamethrower at ceiling to cause indirect damage to opponent pokemon distracting him enough to allow Combusken to break free.

Solidad coming of as highly calculated and sophisticated coordinator. With pokemon like Slowbro, Pidgeott or Laprass outclassing most competition and overwhelming May strategy with superior power and agility of her tream.

Compared to Zoey who while strong, didn't gave such impression with how relatively easy she lost to May in Wallace Cup or in being completely tied with Dawn not seeming to have much advantage.

For record i never said how Dawn was better coordinator thats what you implied. But how better written contest arc in Dawn case with writers taking time to pan it out in more cogent, detailed way doesnt prove how Dawn is stronger than May is.

And yet he did not attend some of her contests as opposed to all of Dawn's. He did not participate in a contest in AG until near the end, but took part in Dawn's first and helped her in her journey where he could. But yeah, he sure showed May a lot more respect.

Just like we as humans express respect and admiration toward each person differently building on different relationship with them. Same applies to fictional characters with different personalities, views on world, quirks and ambitions resulting in different development of friendship and bond.

With May Ash helped her far more in learning ropes as trainer, teaching her about pokemon abilities, types, attacks and strategies. With his respect coming from wanting to teach and help May in becoming more independent and resolved as trainer.

Comforting her and encouraging in endeavours to become stronger coordinator accompanied with positive impression he formed about May quick learning, ability to sway unfavorable situations in battles in her favor and ingenuity she developed as result of his mentorship as battler.

Just because Ash expressed his support toward May in different way than he did for Dawn, doesnt mean he respected her any less.

Just because Soledad had a connection to Brock does not change the fact that she was essentially Tobias before Tobias. My point still stands.

As well fact that we know more about her personality, backstory, pokemon and coordinator abilities. Or emphasizing on relationship between May and Drew which grew strong over time noticing influences between themselves. Being like intermediator which connects May to all of her other rivals, for simple fact of Solidad being good friends with both Drew and Harley.

So try again.

Even if we perceive Solidad as female version of Tobias, that doesnt demean in any way her strength and foxiness as battler.

Again, the Teams are comprised of criminal lowlifes. Of course they aren't going to play fair, they aren't even competing in anything. Harley was in a competition but had to resort to cheap tactics all the time that blew in his face. Again, no getting around that. And he was May's number 2 competition. Please.

Once again "True of part doesn't make something true as a whole!"

You can cheat and still be competent. Choosing to play unfairly either because of being sneaky and mean. Or believing how by not relying just on your strength alone attempting to sabotage other competition will increase your chances of success.

Adding realistic note to his character and how each of us has dark side whether we want to admit that or not as humans. With what kind of persons we become being conditioned by which part of ourselves prevails.

Not to mention i already provided examples where Harley battled fairly and gave lot of trouble to May and other opponents through what seemed to be original way of using pokemon physical abilities and their attacks.

Not to mention someone not being main rival in protagonist story doesnt make him weak. It only means how writers choosed to focus less on character in question and explore on their motives and intentions.

To give other competition main character is up against more time to be developed and build on adversary. Allowing audience to better understand mindset and methodology between two sides which go up against each other.

Or should we than apply same logic with other Dawn more notable rivals such as Nando and Ursula of being "weak" simply because of receiving less exposition than Zoey?

Which we both know wouldn't be fair criteria to go by.

I think the fact you are still trying to make me believe that jabronis like Robert and Anthony are on par with Ursula, Nando and Zoey is a joke. If they were as good as you say they are, they would have been memorable. Fact is, they weren't. Ursula, Nando and Zoey took part in phenomenal battles, your Hoenn guys did not.

Dont play strawman with me. I never said they were better than Ursula, Nando or Zoey. Hence why i mentioned them as exception.

But once again if were going to talk about unfamiliar faces taking place in Grand Festivals.

Robert for example as Hoenn Grand Festival winner who managed to defeat Drew twice who was among high level coordinators. Dominating competition with his Milotic and graceful use of its attacks and beauty , played key role in Ash Snorunt evolving in Glalie and not hiding high ambitions. Of planning as Hoenn top coordinator to follow same example Solidad did in attempting to win more than one Grand Festival.

Gives picture of exceptional, artful and very poised battler.

Leaving better impression with his performance and role he had than likes of Jessie, Kenny and bunch of other unknown faces in Sinnoh GF who didnt' even got chance to be properly introduced.

But regardless of what i consider more impressive, like i said before we cannot judge someone by how memorable he was in contest or not.

Being subjective reflection of individual thoughts and what in our mind appear to be likable, fun, creative or unforced.

But on their achievements, craftiness, background in displaying amount of dedication and hard work in reaching certain stage of fame, success. And of course pokemon themselves too.

Considering how aside from main and somewhat exploited secondary rivals May and Dawn faced , majority of other competitors who entered GF weren't fleshed out to see how powerful they really are.

We cannot say anything about their versatility and ingenuity as coordinators, because info available for them doesnt confirm how theyre either weak or strong.

And someone being forgettable simply doesnpt cut it not being valid indication of competitors May faced being any less tougher than ones Dawn went up against.

The only circumstance was that Iris had type advantage, nothing more. Iris is the youngest dragonite trainer that I can remember and it did not always listen to her, as the tournament showed. Dragonite was relatively fresh those early rounds, hence why it could just win with brute force. It was also winning against Ash when it was listening to Iris, but lost after it lost control and started doing its own thing. I'm not playing the double game, I have been consistent throughout.

Explained above. Just like Dragonite defeat was result of multiple jointed factors as you claim, despite not showing any signs of fatigue.

Than same thing can be said for Iris battle against Ash in finals of battle club. Having more things going in her favor than just type advantage due to not confronting Ash who was in top shape for several already explained reasons.

Hence why that win cannot be really taken as valid enough indication of how strong Iris really is. Due to Ash himself being unreliable factor due to constant fluctuation in its strength and skill.

Fact is Dawn succeeded where Ash and Roak failed. You can't take that away from her. And you have no way of knowing whether she couldn't have defeated aerodactyl. Her goal was to save Ash, not take the win.

Im not taking away anything from anyone only presenting clear state of things. Which is how besoting wild pokemon doesnt hold bigger value than what Misty, May, Iris or Ash achieved. Confronting bigger and more dangerous pokemon or situations managing to save day.

Let alone prove how Dawn while having better success is better than Ash and Roark were as trainers. Having unlike them factor of surprise on her side and abit of luck when attacking Aerodactyl who didnt expected her involvement.

So you're saying that Frew being bounced out of two GFs makes him stronger than someone who won it all? Wow! I don't even know how to respond to that.

I never said Drew was stronger than Zoey. But on possibly being on same or clolse to Zoey level.
So please dont twist my words.

Because Drew almost always achieving highest scores in appeal rounds, winning far more contests than losing always being one step ahead of May. Almost winning Hoenn Grand Festival which had much larger number of participants on first try taking second place and scoring respectable top 8 place out of more than 270 competitors reveals how he has far more talent, expertize, persistence and strength than your willing to give him credit for.

Nevertheless you should keep in mind how Zoey battle record wasnt that amazing losing two contests and winning just 1 by time she met Dawn, was knocked out from Hearthome and Wallace Cup contests not being unbeatable as you make her out to be.

I ignored nothing. Everything you say about Misty could be wrapped up in I am certain a fraction of the time she was on screen. Hence, it all amounts to trite. As for Dawn, he contest journey did overlap with Ash's several times, for example:

1. trading Ash her buizel, which was instrumental in his next two gym battles
2. allowing Ash to copy her moves like counter shield and spin move
3. inspiring Ash to use contest moves in battles, which is something your supposedly superior May never did
4. challenging Maylene to snap her out of her funk
5. getting Ash to take part in more contests, opening his mind to new possibilities in his own battling

All of which was significant, and was a lot more than any other girl before her could do.

So in other words anything Misty did you label as banal and insignificant. While everything Dawn did, no matter how small it may be was "vital, groundbreaking and essentiual to Pokemon story". Gotta love this circular logic downplaying other character achievements to try made other one look better in comparison.

But your ignoring fact how unlike it was case with Dawn , Misty didn't needed contests and collecting shiny medals to impact plot, feel her presence in pokemon series and develop forward.

Her curious, tomboyish nature having wide range of emotions and internal desires, conflicts which brought more complexity to character, interesting pokemon, touching and interesting backstory(May and Dawn background was pretty underwhelming compared to Mistys of growing without parents and being neglected and downplayed by sisters leaving bad effect on her confidence and selfworth) accompanied with unique dreams and aspirations of becoming water master. Dreams which brought dimension and certain mysterious quality to character in presenting different, new way to see someone grow and succed as pokemon trainer in world.

Were recipe for success and compelling, well rounded character becoming heavily liked and appreciated.

While Dawn was character whose goals and careers were developed most making bigger progress in that field than anyone else.
Misty was catalyst through which other characters likew Ash grew and become stronger trainer.

This can be noticed in; pushing him to train hader and become more humble and collected in battles. Like getting him out of depression after losing in Indigo league. Criticizing him for watching TV instead of practicing with pokemon outside working on developing his own moves instead of copying what others do.
Or when using veteran pokemon such as Charizard against rookies like Casey or wild Chikorita.

In directly influencing Ash gym battles or battles in general such as delaying time to alow Ash to battle with Ritchie in Kanto without judges disqualifying him. Motivating Ash in bringing Squirtle true strength when battling Rudy Starmie leading to learn of hydropump.

Teaching Ash where to register for pokemon league such as Orange Islands or coming with plan how to catch Snorlax. Making sure that he doesnt forgett important tasks such as delivering GS ball to prof. Kurt or helping Ash to prepare strategy against Macy or trainers in Whirl Cup.
Challenged his ego or extracting unselfish side from him through moral support, encouragement or wise advices allowing that Ash becomes more knowledgeable, experienced and leavelheaded trainer.

Creating alongside Brock foundation to become strong trainer he is today. Dawn only through her techniques gave Ash who was veteran by that point ideas how to enrich on his battle abilities becoming more effective.

But Misty caused change in Ash character teaching him how to be better person and trainer.

As well being enabler which allowed that journey progrss firward in resolvingh various clues and puzzles, saving her friends out of danrerous situations and stopping enraged pokemon, villains or coming up with clever ideas how to get herself and others out of dangerous situations(St. Anne, freeing friends from prison, Porta Vista, haunted forest on road to Azalea town, stopping TR Arbok tank or Politoad mecha, see through illusion created by other pokemon such as Ninetales wanting to keep Brock forever etc, etc)..

Being heroine which influenced story in general rather than just one part of it(her dreams, feelings and ambitions).
Far from being "trite" if you ask me.

My sig is the way it is because of Misty fans neg repping me over the years. Has nothing to do with the character herself. And my comments about Misty are my reflection of her being inferior to better characters since her hayday. I personally think most fans are allowing nostalgia to cloud their judgement when referencing her. Just how I feel about it, no malice intended.

Even if that was true, appeal and likability of fictional character should be judged on his own achievements. Interactions with others, personality, dreams and aspirations, background and overall contribution left on anime plot and others around himself or in this case herself. Rather than what kind of fandom he/she has.

Being only objective and rationale measure.

Nevertheless most people who prefer Misty do so because of finding she had better pokemon, more unique dreams, stronger personality, more memorable interactions with others or viewing her heroic acts and achievements to be of greater value relatively than what other girls did.

Leaving stronger positive imprint on their minds being more impressed.

Does that mean theyre wrong, or right?
It means neither being matter of opinion.

Just like in your opinion Dawn was superior to everyone and was more groundbreaking as character for pokemon series than anyone else.

But objective truth is neither is better or worse with both Misty and Dawn having their strong and weak sides, moments of failure and glory helping build on others and pokemon story in ther own ways and approach.

Post Scriptum:

To Vernikova:
That doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

Even if Misty battled weaker version of Ash which i wouldnt call scrub already having several achievements as trainer by time late Johto started rolling already conquering one league, that doesnt say anything that she couldn't be able to stand her ground against more mature Ash character from Hoenn and Sinnoh series.

As its been showed through Hoenn cameos it wasnt just Ash who was improving, but Misty too coming of as more competent, resourceful and wiser acquiring Gyarados, making Corsola more resistant etc.

Likewise just because battles were on weaker level in terms of animation and moveset back in day doesnt mean trainers Misty faced such as Marina, Trinity, Harrison, Dorian etc were necessarily weaker than ones May, Dawn, Iris or Cilan for instance battled against.

Or that gym leaders and experienced trainers were puahover from Kanto, Johto respectively. Thats if anything oversimplification of things.

It simply means writers were less experienced in making battling in early years just as detailed and sparkly as it used to become standard in future.

Being gradual progression with battles in Johto looking more spectacular than those in Kanto, Sinnoh confrontations looking better than ones in Hoenn etc, etc.