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Submerged Embassy

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For all of you who (falsely) believe that Greninja is OP, let me direct you to a post I mad eon Smogon that clearly shows what the problem is, and how to fix it:

teh post

not even cloos can counter this lmao
 
Hey everyone. For all of you lot claiming that Greninja is somehow not broken, I have a post for you, too! I will always win Clone

ORAS hype! Over here in Europe, I'll be getting it on Friday :]

Can you stop trying to be funny? That post was extremely flawed in multiple ways and saying that you'll "always win" doesn't make you cool.

I swear this is Aegislash all over again like wtf GameFreak.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
For all of you who (falsely) believe that Greninja is OP, let me direct you to a post I mad eon Smogon that clearly shows what the problem is, and how to fix it:

teh post

not even cloos can counter this lmao

Hey everyone. For all of you lot claiming that Greninja is somehow not broken, I have a post for you, too! I will always win Clone

ORAS hype! Over here in Europe, I'll be getting it on Friday :]

If we are going to discuss Greninja, Let's make it civilized and without the childish barbs at each other. I'm on Clone's side, and I'm antiban. What does everyone else think?
 
I haven't played ORAS/XY OU much but I never realised how used it actually is.

There is no doubt it is a great pokemon, protean being a really unique ability giving it a huge niche, with stats and moves to back it up. However, OU is very HO/Offensive based atm., with offensive mons like Land, Azumarill,Scizor and Greninja taking a lead. However this has lead to stall having a niche; build a good stall team and you can do well,as long as it has a way to deal with aforementioned threats. I think the Pokémon that will do well in ORAS will be the ones with good bulk and attack, like MegaGross. Back to Greninja; why does everyone make a fuss about it? Its just a good pokemon, it has checks and counters, just like any other OU 'mon. It beats some things, loses to others, just like every pokemon aside from arceus
Its not bban worthy

PS this is an observer/non-ladderrer POV
~sneasel

EDIT: could someone run calcs on 252 at jolly Focus Sash weavile on megamence, Icicle Crash and Ice Shard?
 
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I haven't played ORAS/XY OU much but I never realised how used it actually is.

There is no doubt it is a great pokemon, protean being a really unique ability giving it a huge niche, with stats and moves to back it up. However, OU is very HO/Offensive based atm., with offensive mons like Land, Azumarill,Scizor and Greninja taking a lead. However this has lead to stall having a niche; build a good stall team and you can do well,as long as it has a way to deal with aforementioned threats. I think the Pokémon that will do well in ORAS will be the ones with good bulk and attack, like MegaGross. Back to Greninja; why does everyone make a fuss about it? Its just a good pokemon, it has checks and counters, just like any other OU 'mon. It beats some things, loses to others, just like every pokemon aside from arceus
Its not bban worthy

PS this is an observer/non-ladderrer POV
~sneasel

EDIT: could someone run calcs on 252 at jolly Focus Sash weavile on megamence, Icicle Crash and Ice Shard?

Icicle Crash OHKOes; Ice Shard 2HKOes. Even Life Orb Ice Shard only 2HKOes. It does 84ish to 96ish iirc (LO, that is, calc is down so I'm not 100% sure).
 

Aeon™

Rock Ultimate
I'm also antiban on Greninja. I haven't been back long and haven't really played any good matches, but I am using a Greninja on my current team so I may as well give my two cents. I feel like including checks and counters to Greninja doesn't take away from the actual team too much. The reason for this, at least in my experience, is that the Pokemon aren't typically put on the team specifically to counter Greninja. Or if it is, I'll usually use a Pokemon that can fill both the roll of "Greninja check/counter" and "Scarf Revenger/Cleaner" or whatever I need. There's a diverse enough list of checks that Greninja isn't a pressing enough issue to be banned.
 
Thanks for the calcs :D
Good to know that Weavile s***s on almost every dragon with Icicle Crash, Pursuit and Ice Shard with a sash+spinner
 

Snorby

Snorby
For all of you who (falsely) believe that Greninja is OP, let me direct you to a post I mad eon Smogon that clearly shows what the problem is, and how to fix it:

teh post

not even cloos can counter this lmao

Hey everyone. For all of you lot claiming that Greninja is somehow not broken, I have a post for you, too! I will always win Clone

ORAS hype! Over here in Europe, I'll be getting it on Friday :]

Seconding what Ger said. Stop being pigheaded, the both of you. Act like the civilized human beings you are.

That said, I think Clone's post brings up much better points than TerrorDave's.

Calling it centralizing to require an offensive team to bring things like priority, good scarfers, or A-Ranked, highly used for a plethora of other reasons mega evolutions is downright laughable. Offense should be bringing fast mons, scarfers, and priority anyway. that's what offense IS. Also, as Clone's post mentioned, Tentacruel and possibly even Rotom-W should definitely be called "universal counters" as well as P2 (which isnt bad lol) and chansey, because they tank hits from it without a problem unless you EV them like an idiot.

As for getting easy free kills against offense, I'd like somebody to name me one set commonly found on offense that likes switching in on Azumarill 100% of the time. Or, something found on offense that likes switching in on Keldeo 100% of the time. Something on offense that likes switching in on Mega Lopunny 100% of the time? You can't do that, because those kinds of pokemon don't exist. Saying Greninja gets free kills against almost every offensive team is a completely moot point.

Saying that 4MSS isnt a problem for Greninja because of teammates is also a moot point, because things like Keldeo and Lopunny can also beat all their counters with the right set/moves, and have no troubles dropping certain coverage with the right teammate (Keldeo dropping Icy Wind when paired with a Scarf Tyranitar to get rid of Lati@s, for example)

My point is, TerrorDave's argument has more holes than swiss cheese, and Clone's is actually well said, well thought out, and brings up a lot of solid points. Despite agreeing with Clone before reading these posts, I think I can say that if someone were to look at these reasonings with a completely objective point of view, almost anybody would agree with Clone because he has the stronger arguments, plain and simple. This really reflects badly on your statement that Greninja is broken because not only is this post in response to Clone's so it should have had a much easier time covering all the bases, but you also could have cited any Pro-Ban post on Smogon, and you chose that one, which overall has little to no ground to stand on, to represent your argument. The implications about the other arguments available from the Pro-Ban side are not positive ones.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Most important thing to draw from this post is that We're all comrades and we need to treat each other as such. Stupid jabs at each other helps no one and hurts everyone.

EDIT: As a sidenote, I will have limited internet til Friday evening at the earliest. Don't worry, I'll be back in time to post the war.
 
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I finally got my nice n powerful name change =]

---

So how is everyone's ORAS run coming along? Favorite / least favorite gym leader(s)? Most annoying mon(s) to catch / battle?
 

Nitocrys

Because I'm Happy.
I finally got my nice n powerful name change =]

---

So how is everyone's ORAS run coming along? Favorite / least favorite gym leader(s)? Most annoying mon(s) to catch / battle?
still resetting for latias >.<
reset 612 now. rip crys' broken reset button
 

Snorby

Snorby
I finally got my nice n powerful name change =]

---

So how is everyone's ORAS run coming along? Favorite / least favorite gym leader(s)? Most annoying mon(s) to catch / battle?

finished delta episode. Most annoying mon to battle was Flannery's b*tch of a torkoal since my only special moves were flame burst and water gun and it kind of spammed sunny day
 

venom1950

Ace Trainer
finished delta episode. Most annoying mon to battle was Flannery's b*tch of a torkoal since my only special moves were flame burst and water gun and it kind of spammed sunny day

that's sounds somewhat difficult. A fire gym with sunny day in that stage of game must be a nightmare if you don't have a ground type pokemon. Good thing i always have a ground type on my team. i'll be picking mudkip so i think i won't have too much problem with flannery
 
Ran a metric sh*tton of calcs involving Weavile vs [Insert Dragon Here]
0 Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Aerilate Mega Salamence: 264 - 312 (67 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That is +252 Def and 252 HP Bold Megamence, with no Atk EVs on Weavile :D That is some serious power <3 (only bold because that boosts defense)
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP/0 Def Aerilate Mega Salamence: 460 - 544 (116.8 - 138.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP/0 Def Aerilate Mega Salamence: 220 - 264 (55.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP/0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 302 - 356 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 252 HP/0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 144 - 170 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Sand Veil Garchomp: 604 - 712 (169.2 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Sand Veil Garchomp: 288 - 340 (80.7 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos: 276 - 326 (86 - 101.6%) -- 11.7% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos: 132 - 156 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Lightning Rod Mega Sceptile: 732 - 864 (260.5 - 307.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Lightning Rod Mega Sceptile: 348 - 412 (123.8 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Pixilate Mega Altaria: 266 - 314 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 48.9% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Pixilate Mega Altaria: 126 - 150 (43.3 - 51.5%) -- 20.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Levitate Mega Latias: 248 - 294 (82.4 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Levitate Mega Latias: 116 - 140 (38.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP/0 Def Levitate Mega Latias: 116 - 140 (38.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Rivalry Haxorus: 314 - 372 (107.2 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Rivalry Haxorus: 150 - 176 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Levitate Hydreigon: 314 - 372 (96.6 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Levitate Hydreigon: 150 - 176 (46.2 - 54.2%) -- 52.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Poison Point Dragalge: 314 - 372 (115.9 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Poison Point Dragalge: 150 - 176 (55.4 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Strong Jaw Tyrantrum: 248 - 294 (81.3 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Strong Jaw Tyrantrum: 116 - 140 (38 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Sap Sipper Goodra: 386 - 456 (120.2 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Sap Sipper Goodra: 186 - 218 (57.9 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Frisk Noivern: 696 - 820 (223.8 - 263.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Frisk Noivern: 696 - 820 (223.8 - 263.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Air Lock Rayquaza: 628 - 744 (178.9 - 212%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Air Lock Rayquaza: 300 - 352 (85.5 - 100.3%) -- 3.7% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP/0 Def Delta Stream Mega Rayquaza: 288 - 340 (82.1 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Focus Sash Pressure Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP/0 Def Delta Stream Mega Rayquaza: 132 - 160 (37.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

...ouch
 
I finally got my nice n powerful name change =]

---

So how is everyone's ORAS run coming along? Favorite / least favorite gym leader(s)? Most annoying mon(s) to catch / battle?

I'm waiting at Victory Road for my sister to catch up, till then I'm spending time gettin mega stones. Anywho, I'd say my favorite gym leader was either Flannery or Wattson. Wattson's always been my favorite but Flannery's just adorable. Tate and Liza are still little *****es tho. Tbh Maxie was way more annoying than the gym leaders with his confusion bs. ALSO, the surprise non-hoenn mons you can find when soaring and stuff always make me flip out cuz i'm just surprised. It's a pleasant surprise but surprise nonetheless.
 

Snorby

Snorby
Everyone can vote for the next CCAT mon now!

Nominations are on the previous page.

god im so bad at updating this
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
>Implying it has to be Volt-Turn because of Bee

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

Don't dismiss this because of the split between Def/Sdef EVs that most noobs do, this actually has a use. These EVs make P2 almost a perfect Greninja counter, allowing him to avoid the 2HKO from both Low Kick AND Hydro Pump, even with Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes on the field. With SR and 3 layers of Spikes, both moves have a ~50% chance to 2HKO. This P2 also can Rkill SD Talonflame without trouble, something that plagues teams with Mega Beedrill. It's a solid way to support Mega Beedrill's frailty, and allows us to divert from the pure Volt-Turn archetype.

going with this for ccat vote. since i'm bored with volturn
 

Aeon™

Rock Ultimate
I'm voting for Pikachu-Belle because crys' post was most aesthetically appealing. Well, that's not the actual reason but it's good enough.
 
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