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Suicune Discussion

Discussion in 'Older Gens' started by kaiser soze, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. kaiser soze

    kaiser soze Reading ADWD

    [​IMG]
    Stats
    100 HP / 75 Attack / 115 Defense / 90 Special Attack / 115 Special Defense / 85 Speed


    Suicune, the majestic covermon for Pokemon Crystal. A longtime OU staple, the BW powercreep knocked it down into today's supercharged UU. Don't be fooled, however; Suicune can handle its own in either tier. It combines great defenses with respectable speed and SA that allows it to tank with either an offensive or defensive focus.

    Abilities
    Pressure - Kinda standard for legendaries, but with a defensive focus Suicune can put it to good use and drain PP of high-powered moves with only a little HP.
    Water Absorb (unreleased) - Another good option. Provides an immunity with some recoverably; best for offensive sets that lack recoverability.

    Pros and Cons
    Pro: - Great non-attacking movepool with Calm Mind, Roar, Mirror Coat, plus an excellent RestTalker
    - Great defensive typing and stats with SA and speed
    - RestTalk sets make it practically immune to status moves

    Con: - Most defensive sets only carry Water STAB, so walled by Water Absorb/Storm Drain pokemon since it cant harm them. Other bulky Waters (namely Jellicent) are tough to take down. And there's always Ferrothorn...
    - Taunt bait. It usually needs a CM or two before it can do serious offensive damage, so an untimely Taunt can ruin your sweep. Plus, being Tricked a Choice item can be frustrating.
    - Does not fare well when Hazed or Shuffled, especially given the new sleep mechanics. Also, the 5th gen sleep mechanics reset the sleep clock every time it leaves play. ​

    Sets

    CroCune​

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Bold, Pressure
    252 HP/252 SD/4 D
    - Scald
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    My favorite set, and one of the more famous special-name sets. The idea is to CM to boost your defenses, grap a quick nap, Sleep Talk to remain productive, and then once nothing can damage you Scald away. Rest ad Sleep Talk again if you've taken too many hits. Scald on its own is a great upgrade this generation, as the good Burn chance adds physical bulk by cutting the opponent's attack. However, this set is still ruined by Taunters and at best can PP stall someone with a Water immunity. However, being practically immune to status and with a good shot of going to +6 SA/SD, CroCune is quite a juggernaut.

    Sub + Calm Mind​

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Modest, Pressure
    252 HP/172 SA/84 Speed
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf/Hydro Pump/Scald
    - Ice Beam/Hidden Power Fire

    Throwback to the GSC days. More focus on setting up quickly and creating hassles with a Sub. With a few CMs, it will get tougher to break Subs. Water STAB is self-explanatory. Ice Beam helps cover its Grass weakness and slay Dragons with ease, but HP Fire can take out Ferrothorn.

    Calm Mind Sweeper​

    Suicune @ Leftovers/Life Orb
    Timid, Pressure
    252 Speed/252 SA/4 SD
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf/Hydro Pump/Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power Fire/Electric/Grass

    More of a generic sweeper setup, this time focusing on Calm Mind's offensive boosts. You got Calm Mind to boost, Water STAB, and Ice Beam for Grass and Dragons. Hidden Power is meant to beat one of your counters: Fire eliminates Ferrothorn, Grass takes out Storm Drain Gastrodon, and Electric takes out other Water types, such as Gyarados. Hower, I'm not a fan of an offensive set for Suicune since base 90 isn't that threatening for an attack stat, and it's possible to get more CM boosts from defensive sets. [/personal opinion]
     
  2. Ice Blue Dragon

    Ice Blue Dragon I belive I can fly!

    The sub set helps with the taunt problem. I prefer that set because it is easier to set up, and has two attacking moves.

    Suicune is a good wall, with a good typing and movepool.
     
  3. Aura Sensei™

    Aura Sensei™ User Title

    Suicune is awesome!A awesome pokemon even though it is legendary.:D
     
  4. Ice Blue Dragon

    Ice Blue Dragon I belive I can fly!

    ^That was an extremely good post and helped a lot thworad future disscussion.

    I feel that scald > hydro Pump, because the burn chance helps it wall an the physical side even more.
     
  5. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'

    Lol calm down, dude. I think Suicune's pretty cool as well. >>

    Anyways, with those sexy 115 defenses it really shouldn't be a wonder as 2 how it can work so well as a CM sweeper. -w- Scald only served 2 ENHANCE its performance as well. :0 Dunno why he's so underused now. Oooh weelll..

    Personally, I prefer HP Grass so I can deal with Gastrodons, Quagsires and the occasional Swampert much more easily. My team always has a few counters 2 Ferrothorn as any team should so it doesn't worry me 2 much. :0
     
  6. While the new Rest mechanics really hurt it, I still find it impressive how much of a threat Suicune can be to so many teams. It's true that Pokemon like Gastrodon can take its Scalds or Surfs or whatever all day, but think about it. With Pressure and Rest, it's not hard at all for Suicune to stall them out of PP and then run through the opposing team at +6. Jellicent still stops it cold with Water Absorb and Taunt, but it's still a really bulky Pokemon, and you still cannot even threaten with status because of RestTalk.
     
  7. foxyman1167

    foxyman1167 From Zero To Hero

    For the last set, HP [Grass] is the best option IMHO. Though it leaves you open to Ferrothorn, it doesn't resist Ice Beam, and won't particularly enjoy boosted Ice Beams.

    According to Smogon's Damage Calculator, +2 Suicune does 40.3% - 47.7% (3HKO w/ Lefties) to Impish Max HP/Max Def Ferrothorn, while it does 29.8% - 35.2% (5HKO w/ Lefties) to Careful Max HP/Max Sp. Def Ferrothorn.

    Ehhh, not great now that I really examine the numbers -__-
     
  8. Zachmac

    Zachmac Well-Known Member

    At +2, it takes down less then half of Ferrothorn's health, while Ferrothorn can STAB power whip it.

    I'd go for HP fire.
     
  9. foxyman1167

    foxyman1167 From Zero To Hero

    I did the damage calcs for that too, and Adamant Max Attack Ferrothorn does 55% - 65.3% (2HKO) while Relaxed No Attack EVs does 39.1% - 46.5% (3HKO).

    But really, when does a Ferrothorn run an offensive set?
     
  10. Zachmac

    Zachmac Well-Known Member

    I've seen Choice Band...

    But I was saying at +2, less then half a pokemon's HP is not impressive. There will probably be a lot of times when Suicune will only be at +1, or Ferrothorn can swap in on the first calm mind.
     
  11. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak Pit is Awesome :P

    Lol, why do you have HP Fire, you need Grass to hit other waters, especially Gastro, as it can tank the CM set with ease. Scald and a CM Sweeper is redundant, have Hydro Pump as the main option with Surf as an option
     
  12. kaiser soze

    kaiser soze Reading ADWD

    One word: Ferrothorn. Way more common than Storm Drain Gastro.

    Personally however I've stuck with CroCune.
     
  13. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak Pit is Awesome :P

    Way more common yes, then Jellicent, Politoed, Gastrodon, Rotom-W, or any other water type beat it, and water mons are on about 90% of teams.
     
  14. kaiser soze

    kaiser soze Reading ADWD

    It's a tradeoff, and you're not going to beat both. Pick Grass and you're Ferrothorn's b!tch. Pick Fire and it's bulky Waters.

    However, against most Water types (without Water Absorb, Storm Drain, Taunt, or Electric typing) they can be used as set-up bait. Calm Mind will increase both its offensive and defensive power, so it can absorb most attacks from Water Types save Rotom-W (but you should have probably switched out against him anyway). Then you're at +6, and their Water resistance isn't going to be that helpful anymore.

    I've used CroCune plenty and with good prediction/teammates it survives a lot, save the lucky crit.
     
  15. Inchtall

    Inchtall Back in Black....2

    Is it just a coincidence that Kaiser Soze, leader of Team Sea Soul, whom's logo is a Suicune, started the Suicune discussion thread? Anyways, I'm betting this thing could become the new Jellicent once kit's DW ability is released.
     
  16. irock245

    irock245 She wants it

    Not really, because jellicent can still spinblock and take fighting attacks, while suicune can't do either. It would probably be outclassed.
     
  17. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'

    Scald is perfectly viable as chancing a cripple on your opponents Atk whilst Calm Mindin' with its again; SEXY defenses would allow it 2 survive hits much more unfairly. Though it'd probably be safer 2 go with Lefties in this case. -w-

    Of course, if you'd want things 2 go by a bit more quickly then that's why Surf/Hydro Pump are there! xD
     

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