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Sun & Moon Pokémon Speculation Thread

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lemoncatpower

Cynical optimist
Wimpod is debuting on SM20 and King Dewpider hasn't. Very interesting.

how did you find out that Wimpod is debuting? Was it on a trailer for the episode?

edit: I found out in another thread thanks!
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Probably, but in that case they failed horribly. Good wins? Tell me which, in fact, I'll tell you: none. Dragonite? That thing was rampaging and didn't even see straight. Sawk? It finished off the job that Leavanny did for it. Both are overrated wins by any stretch. That leaves the battle vs. Brycen's Beartic, which was nice, but that's basically its only true feat, because Stephan's Liepard wasn't really that special.
Yeah, like defeating Brycen's ace Beartic, defeating Stephan's Leipard and Sawk, both of which were powerhouses(if you're going to argue that Sawk was weakened, then I'd say that Krookodile was also a lot weakened by Liepard). And it's true that Dragonite wasn't listening to Iris's commands, but the fact that Krookodile managed to KO it in a few hits shows that it's pretty much on the same level of power as Dragonite. Overall, these are quite impressive feats, not quite as good as the other aces, but still better than the other Pokemon of Unova. It has fainted only once onscreen after capture.

Pignite not strong enough to be the ace? Hell it was. It took down an Hydreigon and then it took down a Ferrothorn. It had far more wins then Krookodile, which is by far the most overrated supposed ace in this show. It's like saying that Heracross or Glalie were the aces of Johto and Hoenn. Yes they were strong, but not absurd strong like Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape and Greninja, or they did not carry the team in the way an ace should.

Defeating Hydreigon was it's only ace worthy feat. Overall, Pignite's performance is worthy of a strong and decently consistent Pokemon, but certainly not ace worthy. Krookodile has done enough to show that it's stronger than Pignite.

Actually, stop lowkey ignoring the shaft that Torterra has been getting on these forums for nearly a decade. People think better of Bayleef, Quilava and Pignite then of Torterra. But why? Since Torterra before it evolved had an equal or better trackrecord then some of those mentioned. So yeah, I'd rather have a Torracat that wrecks stuff up, than have another case of having to defend a pokémon that did not equal to the hype it had - and yes, fully evolved starters always have hype to live up to, even when put next to BlazeNape. I'd rather have a goofy, aloof Decidueye that wrecks things with Sinister Arrow Raid and a ferocious Torracat that acts more like the ace in the same way like Tyson's PussInBoots was his ace and how his Metagross was just a strong pokémon on his team or how Pignite acted more like the ace during Best Wishes, rather then the comparatively disappointing Krookodile.

In fact, look at Tyson, dude had a Sceptile, a Metagross and a Meowth and Meowth was the ace. Don't say that his Sceptile was underwhelming since it got KO'd quickly, because it faced Ash's Glalie - which was wrecking the Hoenn League and had a serious type advantage and it still was a draw. So I'd argue that I'd would want to see Decidueye be that "Metagross", Lycanroc be that "Sceptile" and Torracat be that PussInBoots.
I can get somewhat your point here, if you are equating things to Tyson's team, many powerful Pokemon and one efficient unevolved ace. But I'd like to point out that Puss in Boots somewhat equates to Ash's Pikachu. Most trusty partner, unevolved. So if you're equating things to Tyson's team, then Pikachu(with Z-move) being the ace and having other powerful Pokemon in the team would make more sense.

Ridiculous argument. Just because something else gets to be a strong and reliable pokémon somehow means that starters won't get proper development or perform to their full potential?
Not really, because fully evolved starters who become aces generally become very much developed and powerful, performing to their full potential.


No you are missing the point. If we include other regions, then Pikachu was the ace in Kanto, Pikachu was the ace in Johto, Pikachu was the ace in Hoenn, Infernape was the ace in Sinnoh, Pikachu was the ace in Unova and Greninja was the ace in Kalos, very closely followed by Pikachu. The thing we are discussing is "Ace per team". Yes, Charizard was on the team during Johto, but it was a Kanto-capture. And then what about Sceptile? The most notable thing it did were in Kanto and Sinnoh.. Yeah. What you're arguing simply doesn't give a good image.
No you're not getting the point. Charizard was disobedient most of the time in Kanto, it didn't accomplish anything that much noteworthy or ace worthy in Kanto or Orange Orange* Islands. Majority of the notable things it accomplished was in Johto, which were ace worthy feats. So how can you call Charizard the ace of Kanto(where it accomplished nothing that much noteworthy) and not of Johto(where it accomplished majority of its notable feats)? How does that make sense? And regarding Sceptile, I certainly don't think that it was the ace of Hoenn, as it was a Grovyle then and was quite inconsistent. It later became an ace in BF, where it fully evolved and accomplished ace worthy feats. And using Pikachu as an argument is illogical here as it always travels with Ash to every region.
 
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satobato

Pokemon master

Navin

MALDREAD
Probably, but in that case they failed horribly. Good wins? Tell me which, in fact, I'll tell you: none. Dragonite? That thing was rampaging and didn't even see straight. Sawk? It finished off the job that Leavanny did for it. Both are overrated wins by any stretch. That leaves the battle vs. Brycen's Beartic, which was nice, but that's basically its only true feat, because Stephan's Liepard wasn't really that special.

I agree, they didn't do a good job with depicting Krookodile as the ace, but I do believe that was the intended purpose. This is why a lot of people don't typically include it among GPICSS. It also didn't help that after the league, they also randomly threw in Charizard, who overshadowed everyone.

My hope is that this time they'll give Lycanroc the proper focus for a non-Starter type ace. That doesn't mean I want the rest of the team to suffer for it, but I'd like Lycanroc to be the top dog (heh).
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
Lycanroc comes off as Tier 2 rather than ace. Or worse another Noivern/Torterra
 

satobato

Pokemon master
Some people want incineroar to become non ace . I only want litten to fully evolve .If it is not an ace it is ok,but I want to see him fully evolve.

Decideyue can become ace or someone other.But I don't want to see rockruff as ace.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
My hope is that this time they'll give Lycanroc the proper focus for a non-Starter type ace. That doesn't mean I want the rest of the team to suffer for it, but I'd like Lycanroc to be the top dog (heh).

That's my hope, as well. I want to see Lycanroc be the top dog (ha ha) and get proper focus. Rockruff wants to get stronger (and I assume that attitude won't change even after or if it evolves, given Lycanroc's description), so I don't see any reason why it would not end up becoming a powerhouse. I don't want to see the rest of Ash's Alola team suffer, of course, but I don't want Lycanroc to get shafted, either.

Lycanroc comes off as Tier 2 rather than ace. Or worse another Noivern/Torterra

I certainly hope not! :( That would just be a total waste!
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Yeah, like defeating Brycen's ace Beartic, defeating defeating* Stephan's Leipard and Sawk, both of which were powerhouses(if you're going to argue that Sawk was weakened, then I'd say that Krookodile was also a lot weakened by Liepard). And it's true that Dragonite wasn't listening to Iris's commands, but the fact that Krookodile managed to KO it in a few hits shows that it's pretty much on the same level of power as Dragonite. Overall, these are quite impressive feats, not quite as good as the other aces, but still better than the other Pokemon of Unova. It has fainted only once onscreen after capture.



Defeating Hydreigon was it's only ace worthy feat. Overall, Pignite's performance if worthy of a strong and decently consistent Pokemon, but certainly not ace worthy. Krookodile has done enough to show that it's stronger than Pignite.


I can get somewhat your point here, if you are equating things to Tyson's team, many powerful Pokemon and one efficient unevolved ace. But I'd like to point out that Puss in Boots somewhat equates to Ash's Pikachu. Most trusty partner, unevolved. So if you're equating things to Tyson's team, then Pikachu(with Z-move) being the ace and having other powerful Pokemon in the team would make more sense.


Not really, because fully evolved starters who become aces generally become very much developed and powerful, performing to their full potential.



No you're not getting the point. Charizard was disobedient most of the time in Kanto, it didn't accomplish anything that much noteworthy or ace worthy in Kanto or Orange Orange* Islands. Majority of the notable things it accomplished was in Johto, which were ace worthy feats. So how can you call Charizard the ace of Kanto(where it accomplished nothing that much noteworthy) and not of Johto(where it accomplished majority of its notable feats)? How does that make sense? And regarding Sceptile, I certainly don't think that it was the ace of Hoenn, as it was a Grovyle then and was quite inconsistent. It later became an ace in BF, where it fully evolved and accomplished ace worthy feats. And using Pikachu as an argument is illogical here as it always travels with Ash to every region.

I would still say that Charizard isn't the ace of Johto since Charizard was caught back in Kanto, sure it was disobedient in Kanto, and did more things in Johto but even then I wouldn't consider it the ace of Johto considering that they had to find ways to get Charizard, Squirtle, and Bulbasaur off the team, while it's true that Heracross did rotate off for some episodes Heracross being rotated off was more typical of what happens when a regional team is composed of 6 pokemon + Pikachu.

If anything the Johto regional team was: Heracross, Bayleef, Cyndaquil(which later evolved into Quilava in Sinnoh),Totodile , Noctowl, and Phanpy(which later evolved into Donphan during the Battle Frontier in Kanto) and then you of course had Pikachu, but Pikachu is really just on almost all if not all of Ash's teams.

now in order of strongest to weakest for the Johto team excluding Pikachu I'd say this is how it currently matches up:

Johto Team:
Heracross
Noctowl
Bayleef/Quilava
Quilava/Bayleef
Donphan
Totodile

Totodile is at this moment most likely the weakest member of the team although the others it's some what arguable in what their postions are but I do think that Heracross is the regional ace for Johto, and at the time of the 8th gym battle in Johto besides having Pikachu his strongest pokemon on the team at the time where Heracross, Noctowl, and Bayleef.
 

RileyXY1

Young Battle Trainer
I bet that Ash will catch Sandyghast. It would be a pretty unique capture.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
I would still say that Charizard isn't the ace of Johto since Charizard was caught back in Kanto, sure it was disobedient in Kanto, and did more things in Johto but even then I wouldn't consider it the ace of Johto considering that they had to find ways to get Charizard, Squirtle, and Bulbasaur off the team, while it's true that Heracross did rotate off for some episodes Heracross being rotated off was more typical of what happens when a regional team is composed of 6 pokemon + Pikachu.
Then tell me, of which region will you call Charizard the ace? In Kanto and the Orange Islands it's performances certainly weren't ace worthy. Majority of its ace worthy feats were it Johto, like defeating two of the Gym leader's aces(Faulkner's Pidgeot and Clair's Dragonair) and then an MVP performance in the Johto League in the match vs Gary. While it's true that Charizard was caught in Kanto and Ash's found many ways to get him off the team, if you have to call Charizard an ace, calling it the ace of Johto seems appropriate as majority of its ace worthy feats were there(better than any of the Johto Pokemon).
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Then tell me, of which region will you call Charizard the ace? In Kanto and the Orange Islands it's performances certainly weren't ace worthy. Majority of its ace worthy feats were it Johto, like defeating two of the Gym leader's aces(Faulkner's Pidgeot and Clair's Dragonair) and then an MVP performance in the Johto League in the match vs Gary. While it's true that Charizard was caught in Kanto and Ash's found many ways to get him off the team, if you have to call Charizard an ace, calling it the ace of Johto seems appropriate as majority of its ace worthy feats were there(better than any of the Johto Pokemon).

When people are talking about aces, they tend to mean the regional ace, which is a pokemon that was caught in that region and was on that regional's team Charizard may have been a strong pokemon and had feats in Johto, but it still wasn't caught there nor where Charizard, Squirtle, and Bulbasaur, weren't really part of the Johto team, as they were not caught in Johto and they didn't really have that much of an active role through most of the region where the writers were more trying to find ways to get them off the team to make room for the Johto team members and on top of that in all of Johto Charizard only appeared in 15 episodes.

While it's true that in all of Johto Heracross only appeared in 20 episodes, it still was caught in Johto unlike Charizard.

Charizard was an ace to some extent in Kanto while not doing really doing much it can't really be denied that at the time Ash was going through Kanto collecting badges and participating in the league there that Charizard while it did not listen to Ash most of the time until really the Orange Islands happened, it was the strongest pokemon on his team, and would probably have been able to beat any of Ash's other pokemon at the time. Yes Charizard is an ace but it's not the regional Ace for the Johto team, as it was not really a member of the that particular team. Actually come to think of it I think the way to describe Charizard as an Ace would be that it was Ash's Ace for the original series, but it was not the regional ace in Johto.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
When people are talking about aces, they tend to mean the regional ace, which is a pokemon that was caught in that region and was on that regional's team Charizard may have been a strong pokemon and had feats in Johto, but it still wasn't caught there nor where Charizard, Squirtle, and Bulbasaur, weren't really part of the Johto team, as they were not caught in Johto and they didn't really have that much of an active role through most of the region where the writers were more trying to find ways to get them off the team to make room for the Johto team members.
Sorry but you didn't counter my argument there. Of which region will you call Charizard the ace then? Without any ace worthy feat(as it was disobedient most of the time) in Kanto, and not that much significant feats in the Orange Islands, how can you call him the ace of those regions? It's ace worthy accomplishments were mainly in Johto, so if we have to call him an ace, him being the ace of Johto sounds plausible. It's true that Charizard wasn't caught in Johto and wasn't a regular member of the Johto team, what it accomplished in Johto in the two Gym battles and on its comeback in the Johto League was certainly ace worthy.

Charizard was an ace to some extent in Kanto while not doing really doing much it can't really de denied that at the time Ash was going through Kanto collecting badges and participating in the league there that Charizard while it did not listen to Ash most of the time until really the Orange Islands happened, it was the strongest pokemon on his team, and would probably have been able to beat any of Ash's other pokemon at the time.

As I said above. Without any ace worthy feat how can you call it the ace of that region?
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Sorry but you didn't counter my argument there. Of which region will you call Charizard the ace then? Without any ace worthy feat(as it was disobedient most of the time) in Kanto, and not that much significant feats in the Orange Islands, how can you call him the ace of those regions? It's ace worthy accomplishments were mainly in Johto, so if we have to call him an ace, him being the ace of Johto sounds plausible. It's true that Charizard wasn't caught in Johto and wasn't a regular member of the Johto team, what it accomplished in Johto in the two Gym battles and on its comeback in the Johto League was certainly ace worthy.



As I said above. Without any ace worthy feat how can you call it the ace of that region?

No we can't call Charizard the regional ace in Johto because in all Johto he only appeared in 15 episodes, wasn't a regular member of that regional team, nor was he caught in Johto. It would be more accurate to say that Charizard was the ace of the original series, but he was not the ace of Johto.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
I'd honestly argue that Pikachu was the ace of Kanto. Charizard didn't really have any impressive wins except for Blaine's Magmar (and I guess Koga's Golbat, but it beat that as a Charmander), and it was more interested in challenging itself against Magmar and was still disobedient. Pikachu had Brock's Onix, Surge's Raichu, Blaine's Rhydon (although I'd be okay with not counting that one lol), that one guy's Arcanine in the League, and Ritchie's Butterfree. Maybe it doesn't sound that impressive, but it's a hell of a lot more than what Charizard did.

Charizard didn't really come into its own until the Orange Islands. He's not the ace of any region. He's just a general ace.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
No we can't call Charizard the regional ace in Johto because in all Johto he only appeared in 15 episodes, wasn't a regular member of that regional team, nor was he caught in Johto. It would be more accurate to say that Charizard was the ace of the original series, but he was not the ace of Johto.

I guess that sounds better. The ace of the Original Series. So no Johto Pokemon was the ace of Johto.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
I guess that sounds better. The ace of the Original Series. So no Johto Pokemon was the ace of Johto.

No, there was an ace for the Johto team which was either Heracross, or Bayleef, although I would say that the Johto ace was Heracross with Bayleef and Noctowl still being pretty strong pokemon but not being the aces.
 
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345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
No, there was an ace for the Johto team which was either Heracross, or Bayleef, although I would say that the Johto ace was Heracross with Bayleef and Noctowl still being pretty strong pokemon but not being the aces.

Heracross was strong but I can't remember any ace worthy feats from it.
 

Darthlord7

The Smug Pikachu
Imho, the regional aces are these:
Kanto: Pikachu
Orange Islands: No one
Johto: Heracross
Hoenn: Swellow
Kanto Battle Frontier: Sceptile
Sinnoh: Infernape
Unova: Krookodile
Kalos: Greninja
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Heracross was strong but I can't remember any ace worthy feats from it.

It took on Gary's Magmar, and despite have a type disadvantage and having a Magmar that had covered itself in fire and then slammed into Heracross and then shooting more fire at it, Heracross was able to break free and then break through a Flamethrower and beat Magmar. Now in Bayleef's case while it did have a tough battle against Machoke, it's not like it was really at a type disadvantage there and the damage it was taking from Machoke wasn't super effective damage, and while it did beat Harrison's Houndoom I can't really say that it beats what Heracross did as Bayleef never really took any damage from Houndoom and quickly knocked it out after close Houndoom's mouth shut, but then it would up losing to Harrison's Blaziken in one hit when it got hit with a Fire Punch.

So yeah I'd say Heracross has a bit of an more impressive feat then Bayleef, making it the regional Ace for Johto instead of Bayleef.
 
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