Sun & Moon Pokémon Speculation Thread

[Golden_Latias]

I bet Greninja and Zygarde (and fingers crossed for Serena if we're talking Kalos) pulls a deus ex machina against Ultra Necrozma. That thing is so darn OP that it COULD potentially tank several Z-moves and wipe out a dozen Pokemon. Not to mention that Greninja is dark type (hopefully it finally learned Night Slash).
If that does happen I bet it'll be right before league, and not shadow any Alolan mons, since anyway it's high time for a DP style league and that's most likely what'll happen.

Yeah, but presumably Ultra Necrozma won't be until later on in the saga, when Ash and co. have more powerful Pokemon, and Greninja wouldn't be needed.

Also, there is absolutely nothing indicating a DP style league could happen. Not ruling out the possibility, just there's nothing indicating it.

 

[nickdt]

I'm sorry but what you're saying here implies that no past Pokemon should ever make a comeback in future sagas and they should forever rot at Oak's lab. The fact that you're saying that Greninja mere presence would steal away focus from Ash's Alolan team, just implies your indifference towards continuity and tells that no past Pokemon should ever make a reappearence in a future saga and the anime should be allergic to continuity. Every Pokemon that Ash captures in a saga should be completely forgotten and written off from the show after the saga is over.

I honestly have nothing more to say if this is what you mean.


And no, Rowlet and Litten cannot get any development from fighting UB's LMAO. If you're suggesting that getting motivated by their inability to fight UB's, they will evolve/learn new moves, then that will simply look terrible. Because, just after evolving/learning new moves, they will immediately get curbstomped. How would that look? Quite ridiculous.

So I prefer Rowlet/Litten evolving/learning new moves happening during a Kahuna/Totem battle, because then their progression/development would be fruitful.

A past Pokemon returning POST-league isn't an issue, since then the REGIONAL team has gotten all the development. When a past Pokemon returns pre-league, is the issue since then yes... the past Pokemon takes screentime and development away from the current REGIONAL team, because it returns because of FAN-SERVICE and thus gets a lot of screentime, while the regional mons need a lot of screentime, since they are the ones promoting and marketing the new region.

Ash needs two more Pokemon, Litten is going to fully evolve most likely (Else whats the point in even giving Ash Litten if he doesn't have Firium Z), which means Rowlet is gonna get shafted in favor of Greninja (And its possible he gets his next capture during the UB arc, which thus also gets shafted if Greninja returns, despite promoting the current region).

Back in Johto, did the Johto squad got a lot of development: No... it didn't since Squirtle, Bulbasaur and Charizard where around. They couldn't take on Clair, because they didn't get enough development during the Regional gym run and Charizard and Snorlax had to come in, since Pikachu alone was not enough. You see the problem here.

So Rowlet and Litten cannot get development when fighting UB's (Legendaries).... while the same happened in Kalos with both Fletchinder and Noibat, who both got development, because they evolved while fighting a legendary (And Noibat was even weaker than Litten and Rowlet currently are), which makes that point absolete.

 

[345ash-greninja]

A past Pokemon returning POST-league isn't an issue, since then the REGIONAL team has gotten all the development. When a past Pokemon returns pre-league, is the issue since then yes... the past Pokemon takes screentime and development away from the current REGIONAL team, because it returns because of FAN-SERVICE and thus gets a lot of screentime.

Back in Johto, did the Johto squad got a lot of development: No... it didn't since Squirtle, Bulbasaur and Charizard where around. Thats the problem.

Firstly: I didn't say Greninja would permanently return. I said temporarily during the Ultra Guardian arc, when Ash would probably need him to fight UB's.

Secondly: Rowlet and Litten can get no possible development from this Ultra Guardian arc no matter how you look at it. They are bound to get curbstomped pretty much by any UB no matter what.

 

[nickdt]

Firstly: I didn't say Greninja would permanently return. I said temporarily during the Ultra Guardian arc, when Ash would probably need him to fight UB's.

Secondly: Rowlet and Litten can get no possible development from this Ultra Guardian arc no matter how you look at it. They are bound to get curbstomped pretty much by any UB no matter what.

Noibat cannot possibly get experience from Zapdos, since its bound to get curbstomped by a legendary because its not strong enough..... oh... wait.... it did get development, since it battled it.

A common misconception is that a Pokemon only gets development by winning, but also if its loses it gets development.

What don't you understand about Greninja returning taking away development from the REGIONAL team. Permanent or not, that doesn't matter. If it appears, it takes away development, it doesn't matter how you look at it (Because that is shown in Johto, with the starters, Phanpy and Heracross. All of them didn't get the needed development because the old team was around. Noctowl is less of an issue, since it was a fully evolved mon and thus already needed less development) If Litten and Rowlet never take on stronger opponents, how do you imagine they grow stronger, well... they won't since training doesn't give you BATTLE experience. The only one of his regional mons that isn't gonna suffer from a Greninja return is Lycanroc, since it already got development and needs less development since its already fully evolved.

 

[Zipper4242]

Yeah, but presumably Ultra Necrozma won't be until later on in the saga, when Ash and co. have more powerful Pokemon, and Greninja wouldn't be needed.

Also, there is absolutely nothing indicating a DP style league could happen. Not ruling out the possibility, just there's nothing indicating it.

This series mirrors DP same way XY mirrored AG and BW mirrored OS (at least imo).

 

[DatsRight]

This series mirrors DP same way XY mirrored AG and BW mirrored OS (at least imo).

I dunno, many claimed DP was a refined mirror of AG. I can see it in places and expected it to be in areas beforehand, but SM is way more divergent of it's predecessor.

 

[nickdt]

This series mirrors DP same way XY mirrored AG and BW mirrored OS (at least imo).

XY didn't mirror AG at all though: Else Ash would have gotten Chesnaught (Sceptile mirror), Talonflame, Avalugg (Glalie mirror) and Clauncher (Corphish Mirror).

 

[DatsRight]

Noibat cannot possibly get experience from Zapdos, since its bound to get curbstomped by a legendary because its not strong enough..... oh... wait.... it did get development, since it battled it.

A common misconception is that a Pokemon only gets development by winning, but also if its loses it gets development.

The problem is that the anime often underplays that, seemingly falling for that misconception. It will let a Pokemon get cheap heat or win through barebones curb stomps, since it looks superficially better than them losing but with good displays. Even the Noibat case was it DEM evolving at the right time and getting in ONE shot before TR saved it from Zapdo's inevitably dominant retaliation. There was no experience from trying to outdo a stronger opponent there, it was like doing a Fake Out or Quick Attack at the start of the match and then instantly switching out.

Turtonator vs Steelix was a good example of a Pokemon being inevitably overpowered but still putting in a good enough resistance and strategy to make them look competent. Same for Talonflame vs Moltres. But those are the rarity (despite Brock himself even pointing out this ethic ironically enough). They won't even let the likes of Serena and Mallow's Pokemon faint or so much as take single hits in battle because they want to make them superficially badass, like a non-battler who at least tries hard is just 'weak' compared to a plot armoured one that doesn't.

The Pokemon that can take as much as they dish out is actually pretty rare, despite resilience being just as important an attribute (anyone who has played the games will tell you that). And no, that's not just being 'determined' about everything.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

This series mirrors DP same way XY mirrored AG and BW mirrored OS (at least imo).

That's false; this series is more of its own thing and is way different than any of the past series.

 

[RileyXY1]

Here's my current team predictions:

Ash
Pikachu
Decidueye
Incineroar
Lycanroc (Dusk)
Ribombee
Mudsdale

Lillie
Alolan Vulpix

Kiawe
Turtonator
Alolan Marowak

Sophocles
Vikavolt
Togedemaru

Mallow
Steenee

Lana
Brionne
Araquanid

 

[ShadowForce720]

I know, but i didn't mention Naganadel to make a point: It doesn't matter how weak a legendary is. If its classed as a legendary in the game files, its not getting caught by Ash.

Yeah. They're treating Poipole and its evolution like regular Pokemon because of their BST and that they are the starter Pokemon of Ultra Space. If its classed as a legendary in the games' code then Ash won't catch it!

If Ash can have Pokemon that have beaten legendries before then there is no reason why him owning one would make him overpowered, you guys make it sound like Ash owning Poipole would like Ash owning Arceus or Diagla which is not the case, if Ash can beat an Articuno and a Regice then there is no reason to think he couldn't catch a legendary Pokemon that is around the same strength or weaker then them, and if Ash can beat them then he certainly not the only trainer that would be able to beat them. Every time someone brings up the idea of Ash catching Poipole you say oh it would make him overpowered and is a legendary Pokemon as if somehow it's on the level of Arceus or the game mascots which isn't the case.


I could understand saying that if we never saw anyone owning a legendary Pokemon or beating one before but the fact of the matter is we have seen both cases where we've seen Ash beat a Regice, Articuno, Darkrai and tied with a Latios while we've seen a nurse Joy own a Latias, Frontier Brain Brandon own a Regice, Regirock, and Registeel, Noland use an Articuno, Tobais owning a Darkrai and Latios, and a random league trainer who was just a background character owning a Heatran, so it's already been establish that some of the legendary Pokemon are weak enough to where they can be owned by trainers or are beaten by them, and there is nothing that indicates that Poipole is on the level of Arceus or the game mascots, meaning there is no reason why Ash couldn't catch it.


And no it being a legendary Pokemon is not a reason why Ash can't catch it, because if being a legendary Pokemon would make Ash as overpowered as you are trying to say or was a reason why he couldn't have one then we shouldn't have seen cases where other trainers have owned legendary Pokemon or beat them in battles. Also Legendary/Mythical Pokemon is just title is given to a select group of Pokemon for various reasons and not just strength, just because a Pokemon is classified as a legendary or mythical Pokemon doesn't mean that said Pokemon is unbeatable or would make a person overpowered. It is also incorrect to just try to blanket all legendary and mythical Pokemon together as if they are somehow equal in strength with each other when they are clearly not.


So no, Ash owning a Poipole would not make him overpowered because no matter what excuse you try to come up with Poipole and it's evolution are nowhere close to being as strong as the game mascots or Arceus.

 

[Zipper4242]

XY didn't mirror AG at all though: Else Ash would have gotten Chesnaught (Sceptile mirror), Talonflame, Avalugg (Glalie mirror) and Clauncher (Corphish Mirror).

https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/XY_series
Look at the trivia- all the evidence is there. Yes, it's not an exact copy of AG but it is similar. And looking at which starters Ash got in Alola for one thing (two, same as Sinnoh, whereas he got only one in AG/XY and all three in OS/BW) is one of the main reasons for my theory. Yes, it may be Farfetch'd, but I firmly believe we're getting a DP style league if anything. I might be wrong but it's definitely something to bring out onto the table for discussion.

 

[DatsRight]

The biggest dissuasion from the comparison is that SM drifts from the classic formula greatly, while DP suffered from fatigue of it (so much the following series started deviating from it in significant ways). Also while DP played off of a lot of the previous series, AG's ideas, SM, for better or worse, discards a lot of XY's structure to do completely it's own thing.

There are some things that do stick out (a female companion getting heavy limelight, Team Rocket having a more dynamic role while also being ten times wackier, drifts between very light hearted and very dramatic) but not enough yet to make it a true counterpart.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

The biggest dissuasion from the comparison is that SM drifts from the classic formula greatly, while DP suffered from fatigue of it (so much the following series started deviating from it in significant ways). Also while DP played off of a lot of the previous series, AG's ideas, SM, for better or worse, discards a lot of XY's structure to do completely it's own thing.

There are some things that do stick out (a female companion getting heavy limelight, Team Rocket having a more dynamic role while also being ten times wackier, drifts between very light hearted and very dramatic) but not enough yet to make it a true counterpart.

The only similarities I can think of is

The main female companion getting a lot of focus

Ash only having two of the main starters (fire and grass)

The fire starter once again having a tragic back story

Team Rocket's Pokémon finally having some variety. Yes this is Jessie's third Ghost Type but at least he's got an interesting back story. Also this is James first time owning a Water Type besides Magikarp.

Returning a past(s) character in the series.

My biggest hope is that they bring back the "co star" status since it's been awhile since we've had it and Lillie is so versatile. It's been awhile a since a character has been considered equal to Ash and have been handled with just as much care as he has.

 

[DatsRight]

My biggest hope is that they bring back the "co star" status since it's been awhile since we've had it and Lillie is so versatile. It's been awhile a since a character has been considered equal to Ash and have been handled with just as much care as he has.

I'd actually like if they went even further and did a full ensemble series where everyone gets fairly equal footing. Both seasons started off centric to one particular character (Ash and Lillie respectively) but Season One did eventually drift to giving the others key focus and development. I'd love if the rest of Season Two took a step further, maybe even having odd episodes that barely even have Ash or Lillie so another companion can get full attention.

Kiawe and Lana at the very least have access to Z Moves and ride Pokemon and Lana even got a three episode mini-arc to herself. Mallow and Sophocles have a lot more of a way to go, though Sophocles has shown odd signs of life. They even had all five of them in the main climax of the AF arc instead of just Ash, Lillie and Gladion.

 

[Navin]

XY didn't mirror AG at all though:

*Chokes*

"XY is the new AG" 2013-2017. Never forget.

---

Anyway if we're talking comparisons, SM might be a mix of BF/DP although it's really it's own thing.

 

[Golden_Latias]

I'd actually like if they went even further and did a full ensemble series where everyone gets fairly equal footing. Both seasons started off centric to one particular character (Ash and Lillie respectively) but Season One did eventually drift to giving the others key focus and development. I'd love if the rest of Season Two took a step further, maybe even having odd episodes that barely even have Ash or Lillie so another companion can get full attention.

Kiawe and Lana at the very least have access to Z Moves and ride Pokemon and Lana even got a three episode mini-arc to herself. Mallow and Sophocles have a lot more of a way to go, though Sophocles has shown odd signs of life. They even had all five of them in the main climax of the AF arc instead of just Ash, Lillie and Gladion.

I know I was saying earlier that I was hoping SM would feel more like the first season of Digimon, which ultimately had to juggle a main cast of eight characters, and the only one who truly felt underdeveloped at least had the excuse of not joining the main cast until later. Tai and Matt may have been the main protagonist and deutaragonist respectively and received more development overall, but the other kids didn't feel left out or underdeveloped, and everyone got to participate in the big battles. And Digimon did it in around 52 episodes.

Anyway if we're talking comparisons, SM might be a mix of BF/DP although it's really it's own thing.

People were comparing it to the Orange Islands, as well, but other than the four gyms thing and the tropical setting, I don't really see any other comparisons.

 

[Locormus]

XY didn't mirror AG at all though: Else Ash would have gotten Chesnaught (Sceptile mirror), Talonflame, Avalugg (Glalie mirror) and Clauncher (Corphish Mirror).

Pikachu = Pikachu
Greninja = Sceptile: Fully evolved starter.
Talonflame = Swellow: Fully evolved bird.
Hawlucha = Corphish: Powerhouse that did not evolve.
Goodra = Torkoal: Would-be powerhouse that only has one or two wins. Remember that Ash caught Torkoal straight off the back of facing Flannery's impressive one?
Noivern = Glalie: Late capture that evolved.

But that's just the pokémon side of things. How about the younger sibling of one of the main characters joining the journey? The last time that happened was.. Well, AG. So how doesn't it mirror AG at all, when one of the core-features of the series is the first time they've done it after AG??? Also, AG was very focused on battling, as was XY.

The biggest dissuasion from the comparison is that SM drifts from the classic formula greatly, while DP suffered from fatigue of it (so much the following series started deviating from it in significant ways). Also while DP played off of a lot of the previous series, AG's ideas, SM, for better or worse, discards a lot of XY's structure to do completely it's own thing.

There are some things that do stick out (a female companion getting heavy limelight, Team Rocket having a more dynamic role while also being ten times wackier, drifts between very light hearted and very dramatic) but not enough yet to make it a true counterpart.

I actually don't think that DP suffered at all. There was a lot more individual focus on the pokémon, not just Infernape, but even stuff like Paul's Torterra, Dawn's storyline was undeniably better when compared to May, even when the latter had TWO Grand Festivals - as was her status as "co-star", and the rivalry with Paul was dramatically better than ANYTHING AG had shown us in terms of rivalries. The only fatigue that might have been there, may have had something to do with Brock - as he did leave at the end of DP, but the structure of the series as a whole reached its pinnacle during DP.

Best Wishes didn't switch it up all that much. All it changed was change up the cast by ditching Brock and Dawn (the latter part was expected), introduced rotation for Ash's team and stumbled on pacing. If anything, Best Wishes is when the fatigue started setting in: It tried to emulate OS and DP in a shorter series, by giving Ash more pokémon like he did in OS - which meant that there was less individual focus on the pokémon as was the case in DP, the characters also turned out bland and weren't developed fully, Cilan never did anything to grow as a Sommelier and Trip is best forgotten as a rival and the league turned out to be the most disappointing one yet. Highlight for me was Iris' development going from clueless girl with a Excadrill that wouldn't listen to self-assured tamer of a rogue Dragonite - with several key episodes dotted along a rushed series to tie her story together.

To sum it all up, I was excited when the Sinnoh League rolled around. I couldn't help wondering "just get it over with" when the Unova League rolled around. Which makes me pretty sure that "fatigue" set in during Best Wishes, and not DP. Which makes XY such a remarkable series that bounced back from that series. Sure, XY has flaws, massive ones. But it did try to focus on characters yet again. They took their time with Serena, before throwing her into a career with an unfounded choice. The best part was the Mega Evolution Acts leading into XYZ, which was great in its storytelling.

 

[nickdt]

Pikachu = Pikachu
Greninja = Sceptile: Fully evolved starter.
Talonflame = Swellow: Fully evolved bird.
Hawlucha = Corphish: Powerhouse that did not evolve.
Goodra = Torkoal: Would-be powerhouse that only has one or two wins. Remember that Ash caught Torkoal straight off the back of facing Flannery's impressive one?
Noivern = Glalie: Late capture that evolved.

But that's just the pokémon side of things. How about the younger sibling of one of the main characters joining the journey? The last time that happened was.. Well, AG. So how doesn't it mirror AG at all, when one of the core-features of the series is the first time they've done it after AG??? Also, AG was very focused on battling, as was XY..

How is that a mirror though. This is a mirror

Chesnaught > Sceptile (grass starter)
Talonflame > Swellow (Early bird, but poses a problem since Swellow is a 2 stage line, thus the mirror is already broken here, shares Flying with Swellow and Fire with Torkoal)
Clauncher > Corphish (Both Water types and both crab-like and both part of a 2-stage line that is unevolved)
Furfrou > Torkoal (Both don't evolve and Furfrou covers Swellows normal typing, where Talonflame already covers Torkoals fire typing)
Avalugg > Glalie (2-stage ice line).


AG and XY have similarities, but they aren't mirrors, since in order to make it a mirror, everything has to be the same (Typing, team). And not only for Ash though, but also for the companions and Team Rocket.

Also: You compare Hawlucha and Corphish and then say powerhouses that didn't evolve. True... except for the fact that they aren't a mirror, since Hawlucha CAN'T evolve, so you have to compare Hawlucha with Torkoal, which destroys your argument completley, since you can't mirror Corphish with a Kalos Mon since all of them are evolved.

 

[Navin]

How is that a mirror though. This is a mirror

Chesnaught > Sceptile (grass starter)
Talonflame > Swellow (Early bird, but poses a problem since Swellow is a 2 stage line, thus the mirror is already broken here, shares Flying with Swellow and Fire with Torkoal)
Clauncher > Corphish (Both Water types and both crab-like and both part of a 2-stage line that is unevolved)
Furfrou > Torkoal (Both don't evolve and Furfrou covers Swellows normal typing, where Talonflame already covers Torkoals fire typing)
Avalugg > Glalie (2-stage ice line).


AG and XY have similarities, but they aren't mirrors, since in order to make it a mirror, everything has to be the same (Typing, team). And not only for Ash though, but also for the companions and Team Rocket.

Also: You compare Hawlucha and Corphish and then say powerhouses that didn't evolve. True... except for the fact that they aren't a mirror, since Hawlucha CAN'T evolve, so you have to compare Hawlucha with Torkoal, which destroys your argument completley, since you can't mirror Corphish with a Kalos Mon since all of them are evolved.

Fletchbro, nobody is saying it's an exact copy. But there are just a bunch of similarities and callbacks in XY that tie back to AG.