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Sun & Moon Pokémon Speculation Thread

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345ash-greninja

Delinquent
Noibat cannot possibly get experience from Zapdos, since its bound to get curbstomped by a legendary because its not strong enough..... oh... wait.... it did get development, since it battled it.
Um, that example isn't that good considering Noivern was at least in the reach of Zapdos at least to that extent that it could damage it. So it's not appropriate to use that as the example.

Secondly, that did look somewhat DEM. Noivern, who hardly managed to give a decent performance afterwards, somehow managed to deal significant damage to a Legendary Bird, doing better than Talonflame and Hawlucha? That performance of Noivern against Zapdos seems to be an outlier, characterized by DEM factor.

A Pokemon can develop by losing, sure. But only if the loss is a decent one. If the loss is a decent loss, then they can get development. By common sense and logic, Rowlet and Litten are nowhere within the reach that they could give a half-decent fight against any UB. So hardly any chance of development there.

If Rowlet and Litten are able to give a half-decent fight against the UB's, it would seem to be a complete cheap DEM (even more than Noivern vs Zapdos). You really want Rowlet and Litten to get development through cheap DEM? At least I don't. It would be better if Rowlet/Litten get development during fighting Totems/Kahunas, because there they have a chance of putting up a good fight.

Rowlet and Litten need to fight stronger opponents, sure. But the opponents shouldn't be that much strong like the UB's where they can possibly stand no chance, like the UB's. If, for the sake of plot/development, Rowlet/Litten manage to hold its own against UB's, it would seem like complete cheap DEM.

I'd take Greninja coming back over that anyday, because that would be a far more realistic way of fighting UB's

A common misconception is that a Pokemon only gets development by winning, but also if its loses it gets development.
Explained above. A Pokemon can get development from loosing if only the loss is a decent loss, not a curbstomp. Rowlet and Litten are currently within no range to avoid any curbstomp against any UB's.

What don't you understand about Greninja returning taking away development from the REGIONAL team. Permanent or not, that doesn't matter. If it appears, it takes away development, it doesn't matter how you look at it (Because that is shown in Johto, with the starters, Phanpy and Heracross. All of them didn't get the needed development because the old team was around. Noctowl is less of an issue, since it was a fully evolved mon and thus already needed less development) If Litten and Rowlet never take on stronger opponents, how do you imagine they grow stronger, well... they won't since training doesn't give you BATTLE experience. The only one of his regional mons that isn't gonna suffer from a Greninja return is Lycanroc, since it already got development and needs less development since its already fully evolved.
You said Lycanroc won't be effected, so that's it. No problem in Greninja returning then.

Rowlet/Litten aren't within the range currently to avoid a curbstomp against any UB, so that battle experience is redundant, as I have repeatedly explained above. It needs to be a decent loss to get development. And even to get a decent loss against UB's it would take something PIS or cheap DEM.

Battles against Totems/Kahunas are the ideal ones for Rowlet/Litten to get development.

So, the Ultra Guardian arc is a good time for Greninja to return, where Rowlet/Litten can't get any possible development, plus it would give Ash and co. a far more realistic chance of standing up to multiple UB's.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I actually don't think that DP suffered at all. There was a lot more individual focus on the pokémon, not just Infernape, but even stuff like Paul's Torterra, Dawn's storyline was undeniably better when compared to May, even when the latter had TWO Grand Festivals - as was her status as "co-star", and the rivalry with Paul was dramatically better than ANYTHING AG had shown us in terms of rivalries. The only fatigue that might have been there, may have had something to do with Brock - as he did leave at the end of DP, but the structure of the series as a whole reached its pinnacle during DP.

Best Wishes didn't switch it up all that much. All it changed was change up the cast by ditching Brock and Dawn (the latter part was expected), introduced rotation for Ash's team and stumbled on pacing. If anything, Best Wishes is when the fatigue started setting in: It tried to emulate OS and DP in a shorter series, by giving Ash more pokémon like he did in OS - which meant that there was less individual focus on the pokémon as was the case in DP, the characters also turned out bland and weren't developed fully, Cilan never did anything to grow as a Sommelier and Trip is best forgotten as a rival and the league turned out to be the most disappointing one yet. Highlight for me was Iris' development going from clueless girl with a Excadrill that wouldn't listen to self-assured tamer of a rogue Dragonite - with several key episodes dotted along a rushed series to tie her story together.

To sum it all up, I was excited when the Sinnoh League rolled around. I couldn't help wondering "just get it over with" when the Unova League rolled around. Which makes me pretty sure that "fatigue" set in during Best Wishes, and not DP. Which makes XY such a remarkable series that bounced back from that series. Sure, XY has flaws, massive ones. But it did try to focus on characters yet again. They took their time with Serena, before throwing her into a career with an unfounded choice. The best part was the Mega Evolution Acts leading into XYZ, which was great in its storytelling.

What I mean is that DP followed the classic formula staples with COTD/TR type plots being an everlasting presence and to many they were starting to run out of steam due to Flanderization or being done for so long. BW tried to switch the standard setup around at least a bit, having a new, at least relatively more active set of companions, boosting Team Rocket and starting to give the twerps solo episodes which didn't follow the old formula, even if execution wise they ended up screwing over a lot of other key elements of the formula that DP did right.

XY's main problem was it going completely back to the old formula besides a handful of exceptions (likely due to the complaints raised towards BW's changes), and in some cases downgrading and over relying on it to the point it was sometimes WORSE than it was in DP (DP at least parodied how some elements had long been overdone like TR while XY actually tried to play them straight or for bland plot devices). BW and XY both suffered from being so over fixated in freshening up an element the last series did poorly that they neglected and worn down another.

SM has a rather deviant direction. There are some elements of the previous series that it tries to fix or even tries to take a middle ground (eg. Ash having BW's goofiness but XY's competence) but mostly it's just reinventing the whole show to escape the fatigue of the old formula altogether. You could kind of tell they were struggling to make the characters proactive in the classic formula anymore by XY. The transitions this series is sort of like going from The Black Cauldron to Winnie the Pooh.
 
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phantasystar69

Well-Known Member
This is merely my opinion, but I can't get into this series at all (Sun and Moon). It is just incredibly boring to watch since the main focus isn't gyms and battling. Especially with how well Ash has been doing battling and evolving his pokemon the last few series. I am hoping there are some captures/evolution soon, but who knows. Lycanroc evolved so early and I was thinking that was a good sign. That was false hope for sure. One of the starters (or both honestly) should evolve soon if they are going to.
 

World Turtle

Well-Known Member
*Chokes*

"XY is the new AG" 2013-2017. Never forget.

---

Anyway if we're talking comparisons, SM might be a mix of BF/DP although it's really it's own thing.

Ash has two starters/Grass and Fire Starter. That is really only the similarity between DP and SM at this point.

I hope we go back to the gym formula in Gen 8. I applaud them for trying something different, but I'm not just feeling it anymore.
 

Akkipeddi

Materia Hunter
Ash has two starters/Grass and Fire Starter. That is really only the similarity between DP and SM at this point.

I hope we go back to the gym formula in Gen 8. I applaud them for trying something different, but I'm not just feeling it anymore.

Well the gym formula is not guaranteed at all in gen VIII since it's dependent on what the games will do. If the Gen VIII games don't have gyms, then the anime will have to follow whatever new thing there is.

Honestly, while I do prefer gyms over trials any day, I think the anime just makes the Island Challenge even more uninteresting because of the removal of the usual traveling, and forcing everyone to stay in one location for the bulk of the series. It's also not helped that there are no trial captains, so trials just feel really messy with no structure in the anime. So even if gen VIII again doesn't have gyms, I'm at least hoping that traveling returns.
 

nickdt

Well-Known Member
This is merely my opinion, but I can't get into this series at all (Sun and Moon). It is just incredibly boring to watch since the main focus isn't gyms and battling. Especially with how well Ash has been doing battling and evolving his pokemon the last few series. I am hoping there are some captures/evolution soon, but who knows. Lycanroc evolved so early and I was thinking that was a good sign. That was false hope for sure. One of the starters (or both honestly) should evolve soon if they are going to.

Litten is likely gonna evolve in March and i think Popplio will follow soon after that. I can see Rowlet evolving late 2018.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't mind if next series tried something new altogether really. The classic formula has really run stale, and while the slice of life episodes are fun right now, I can see them running out of steam eventually too.

Maybe a hybrid idea like Ash travelling but stopping under several 'home bases' per area could work out nicely.
 

p96822

Evolve me please
I rather have the old formual back because Ash doesn't get to go anywhere anymore. It kinda make the series kinda boring of staying in one location for so long
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
At the same time though I like that Ash and his companions not being tied to each other full time means they are proactive in staying together. When Ash goes to walk with or support one of the others this series it feels much more like he went out of his way to do so (eg. Ash and the other students following Lillie to Poni Island, let alone her leaving to a location on her own in the first place).

Not to mention allowing for more potential in recurring supporting characters like their parents or guardians instead of just COTD that Ash will unlikely cross paths with more than once or twice.

While I can see why some feel the new formula is uneventful, I just slowly got more and more apathetic with the old formula since the cast started to feel more like chess pieces in the same plot over and over, while with the new setup they can more freely drive things and just feel like proper characters who have affect on how everything runs.
 
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p96822

Evolve me please
they can developed the character while traveling with Ash. Really I feel that the characters in Sun and Moon are not that developed as other characters
 

RileyXY1

Young Battle Trainer
In terms of Pokemon, I think that a new capture is coming up. It's most likely Alolan Sandshrew, but I can't predict exactly what it will be.
 

Joltik-Kid

Meh ಠ_ಠ
I'm growing skeptical of evolutions at this point, I mean Rowlet and Litten are both already proving themselves capable at this stage. Hope Springs Enteral though
 

i2i

Big Bad Wolf
I'm growing skeptical of evolutions at this point, I mean Rowlet and Litten are both already proving themselves capable at this stage. Hope Springs Enteral though

I might agree with you if it was any other Pokemon but not Starters, I say just wait a little longer before we call of them evolving or not.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
The fact that neither Dartrix nor Torracat has debuted yet should be reason enough for suspicion.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
I'm growing skeptical of evolutions at this point, I mean Rowlet and Litten are both already proving themselves capable at this stage. Hope Springs Enteral though

I'm extremely doubtful of Rowlet evolving. Pokken did change my mind originally on Decidueye being able to act 'funny', but there's really no need for Rowlet to evolve. Not with how much they show Rowlet off, only Popplio and Togedemaru appear more than it. And Rowlet can learn Ghost moves, so having to evolve just so Ash can have a use for the z-crystal isn't necessary. And not with how rushed the evolution would be, especially when Litten's full evolution seems very likely.

Litten is barely present, we can sometimes go five entire episodes or more without seeing him, then he shows up... and he's disappeared again, much like Mareanie. They're obviously not making an effort on marketing Litten while he's at the cute stage, it won't harm their toy sales by evolving him. Torracat is practically hinted at with all the Lycanroc training and Torracat merchandise... and Litten doesn't have a z-move to call its own, and going back to Akala really should have happened sooner if it was going to happen, I find it unlikely now that Ash will have Firium, Litten needs a z-move of his own... Incineroarnium-Z seems like the best candidate, after all people pointed out the whole Evil-Z thing... and Incineroarnium is a Dark move so Nanu having it wouldn't be too out of the picture, you do get it on Ula'Ula after all.

I'm thinking Hau will show off Decidueye since Ash would have Incineroar, it'd still get decent screentime under Hau and they'd still have Rowlet to market...

Popplio's not going the whole way for sure, we don't see Turtonator a lot because he's so big. Primarina would be the same way. Popplio's in pretty much every episode, I don't think we've gone a episode without it... they'd lose that if it evolved all the way. They have the sea folk girl anyways to show it, we know she'll be back.
Rowlet
Brionne
Incineroar are how I see the main cast starter's ending up.... almost similar to XY really.

And "Another Fire ace", nope! Incineroar has to show off it's Dark typing too, something they haven't really done with Ash's Dark types.... we haven't had one since Sinnoh anyways so having one now isn't bad. He'll be different from all the other Fire aces of Ash, they don't all fight the same way.

Litten, Mareanie, and Charjabug are the only cast Pokemon around currently I see going all the way. And maybe Steenee.... but I'd rather they give Mallow a capture first so Steenee can have more battle experience and earn it.
 

WaterShuriken

"I..I..Iron Tail, Pikachu."
The fact that neither Dartrix nor Torracat has debuted yet should be reason enough for suspicion.


Agreed. I could see Rowlet going all the way taking into account his battling style. Ghost-type would suit him well.

Litten is more questionable. I feel like they gave Incineroar the movie role because they don't plan on doing much with it in the anime.
 

Vipsoccermaster

Well-Known Member
I feel like they gave Incineroar the movie role because they don't plan on doing much with it in the anime.
This could be the case, and even if it is indeed not much, they still want to have Incineroar to debut in the non-movie anime section at least once. Same for all other starters and their evolved forms, too.
 
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