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Sun & Moon Upcoming Episodes Preview: Ula'ula Island Arc

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I think there's also the fact that the old TR formula made for very easy to write plots. Shudo once mentioned that Ash himself wasn't really meant to be that interesting on his own, so TR butting in and making a dilemma was to compensate for that. The thing is that still went into making a good plot a lot of the time in the OS since TR were meant to be stars instead of just plot devices. Hell, for his claims of his 'blandness' Ash had a chemistry with TR in those days. Sure they were nuisances then too, but that was the joke, the twerps' reactions to TR butting in for the billionth time were as much the fun of it ("Oh, it's just Team Rocket"/"Awww not you guys again!"/"Team Rocket eh, hmmm, we don't really have time to fight you today...").

In later series this setup became flat out bare bones in it's purpose, that TR were plot devices there whenever the twerps had a lacking spot or were too bland to hold a story on their own, so they'd butt in and get beaten by them over and over to make them look more remarkable. Even worse they didn't even bother making the twerps interesting as foils against TR, they beat them the exact same scripted way over and over, and their dialogue against them is pretty much just stock hero script. TR are pretty much an excuse for the writers to 'turn off' the twerps for a while, especially during the third act, which is often supposed to be the most culminating and difficult development point of the story, but for this show is usually the most predictable and bland element.

BW had a brief while they revived things to SOME degree, but I think that was because the writers were relishing having comical TR back after so long. Shortly into XY the fatigue started to kick back in ten fold, and the more serious story and characterisations didn't help with TR not fitting in.

SM seems to have caught themselves on this cheapness and tried to make the twerps drive more plots on their own personalities, but even then this problem still sticks out. Neither TR and many other bad guys have much of a chemistry with them, hell the bad guy stories tend to be the worst this series. They still have the problem that TR aren't really meant to compliment the main story, just make it easier and maybe have a fun personality about it to balance it out, and now they don't need them as much they just feel obsolete, with a lot of elements of the show seemingly structured to just keep them from interfering and being noteworthy.

Sometimes it feels like the rest of the characters are meta aware TR have overstayed their welcome as cast members, so haughtily refuse to play along with their shtick or stoop to their level while they ham things up (even when they goof off as much when they're NOT around) and always give them the most bare bones send off. They are DONE with them. :p
I think part of the problem is solved in a way. As in, they made Team Rocket more useful and less of a pain. Look at their chemistry with Team Skull, which was there and had some degree of importance in the TR vs TS episode. I do think that they don't have much chemistry with the SM group compared to OS (for obvious reasons) but they have been settling with the idea of Meowth holding some form of relationship with Ash's then Litten, Ash and Prof Kukui hosting Marieanie in one episode, and Mimikyu having a rivalry with Pikachu. I do enjoy the moments of sassy comments between the group towards the TRio sometimes.:p They were at their worst in DP by appearing almost every damn episode, diluting back to their ironically unfunny comedic & useless selves in XY(&Z) and the rest of BW2+DA right when they were promoted and took their jobs seriously for once... AND succeeding at it. Here in SM, I feel like they're at the perfect balance. They're not appearing as much (sorry Zoruagible) yet makes an appearance when it's necessary, are given pretty tough Pokémon, and have their personalities in tact. I'd rather the TRio are given decent roles at the expense of not appearing that often as they used to then to be the annoyance distraction of the episode. Do you not remember when some users were saying that the show was relying on the TRio as a crutch for being the threat of the day? That they were the only ones that were easiest to use to cause trouble, never changing the status quo?

Now that they aren't used as much, not only has been an immense, well welcomed breath of fresh air sigh of relief, the writers and animators can utilize these characters to good use. The last time I was even slightly annoyed by Team Rocket was when they interrupted Ash's battle with Gladion. I love the TRio just as much as you, would be terribly sad when they do decide to stop Team Rocket from following Ash (and I feel like it will happen), and am well aware that they are here out of obligation/fanservice but at least their roles are put into good use. It almost feels like the vibe of their adventures in Ula Ula are what the TRio were originally going to get in the TR vs TP arc had it not been for the 2011 tragedy.

I disagree that the Team Skull grunts suffer the same issue. They aren't exact replicas of the TRio (aside from being useless but what grunt isn't?) It's hard to tell what they're going to do with them but at this point, they have more potential than the TRio based on their limited appearances alone.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I don't mind TR appearing less often, it's just that it's still merely a diversion from fixing their main role. TR have ALWAYS had good individual episodes and limelight, even during their worst eras, and while SM is focusing more on the good, the problem is that regardless, they still have to use TR in their standard bad guy role every once in a while, and when they do it's usually still as stale as it was in DP/XYZ.

The main reason I made exception to late-BW for example, is because while they were buffoonish again, they used that to have some funny or memorable face-offs with the twerps (the fake cruise, Beheeyem invasion or 'Emolga defects' episodes being some of the most popular), with a downplay in episodes which were practically automated and the two sides interacted in a very boring way. Also similarly later BW/DA didn't use them as excessively as DP/XYZ, saving them more often for occasions they flowed into the plot and wouldn't dilute the twerps' roles.

SM is good for the twerps and TR individually, but the odd times they're together it's more XYZ level, with them seldom challenging the twerps (and Bewear ensuring nothing comes from it if they do) and the two having almost no funny banter despite both sides being comical this series. TS have the same problem. Both teams are fun alone or even pitted against each other, but are just generic jobbers where the twerps are concerned. Season Two has had a couple of signs of life for both, but not really enough for me to say they're on form, just enough to say the twerps aren't restricted to being constant killjoys whenever they appear.

I like the idea of them getting Z Rings and boosts in this case, but at the same time, I wonder if anything will come out of it. Will we actually get any more interesting battles or face-offs, or will they just spam DEMs or Bewear twice as often now? Will their rivalry with the twerps become more developed or will it just be all the difference between what they have against a generic joke villain and a generic serious villain? The quest to TRY is quite welcome over standard TR interruption plots, but will it change anything?
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
SM is good for the twerps and TR individually, but the odd times they're together it's more XYZ level, with them seldom challenging the twerps (and Bewear ensuring nothing comes from it if they do) and the two having almost no funny banter despite both sides being comical this series. TS have the same problem. Both teams are fun alone or even pitted against each other, but are just generic jobbers where the twerps are concerned. Season Two has had a couple of signs of life for both, but not really enough for me to say they're on form, just enough to say the twerps aren't restricted to being constant killjoys whenever they appear.
I think Team Skull should get a pass when it comes to being jobbers against Ash and his friends, as that's sort of the point—they are an organization of societal rejects whom nobody really takes seriously (in spite of their "tough gangster" act) and who can be easily defeated in battle.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think Team Skull should get a pass when it comes to being jobbers against Ash and his friends, as that's sort of the point—they are an organization of societal rejects whom nobody really takes seriously (in spite of their "tough gangster" act) and who can be easily defeated in battle.

As said before though, there's only so many episodes that get humour value out of that. Usually they're just there for one of the twerps to demonstrate a Z Move or something, which I think devalues their ineffectual act since so few of their appearances make humour out of it. The Pokemon Center episode was like the most developed interaction time they've had with the twerps EVER, while their one face off with TR they had a hilarious shtick.

Remember how I said TR were still primarily nuisances in the OS, but it was part of the joke, with the twerps having funny jaded or bewildered reactions to them appearing over and over with increasingly weird plans, while now they have seldom ANY funny reactions to them at all. Also there were more developed times where TR were sneaky or manipulative, playing on the twerps' actual flaws or overconfidence, instead of just the same old disguises or 'Meowth pretends to be good' shtick that involve the twerps being temporarily stupid. Everything's robotic.

I don't think the fact the villains are ineffectual is an excuse because MANY ineffectual villains have entertaining rivalries with the heroes regardless. Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd have a funny chemistry and the way Elmer loses isn't repeated ad nauseum. With the twerps they rarely have entertaining exchanges with ANY of their villains. They're mostly just there for plot devices or an obstacle to make the twerps look more competent and heroic, not for character foils or anything like that.
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
As said before though, there's only so many episodes that get humour value out of that. Usually they're just there for one of the twerps to demonstrate a Z Move or something, which I think devalues their ineffectual act since so few of their appearances make humour out of it. The Pokemon Center episode was like the most developed interaction time they've had with the twerps EVER, while their one face off with TR they had a hilarious shtick.

Remember how I said TR were still primarily nuisances in the OS, but it was part of the joke, with the twerps having funny jaded or bewildered reactions to them appearing over and over with increasingly weird plans, while now they have seldom ANY funny reactions to them at all. Also there were more developed times where TR were sneaky or manipulative, playing on the twerps' actual flaws or overconfidence, instead of just the same old disguises or 'Meowth pretends to be good' shtick that involve the twerps being temporarily stupid. Everything's robotic.

I don't think the fact the villains are ineffectual is an excuse because MANY ineffectual villains have entertaining rivalries with the heroes regardless. Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd have a funny chemistry and the way Elmer loses isn't repeated ad nauseum. With the twerps they rarely have entertaining exchanges with ANY of their villains. They're mostly just there for plot devices or an obstacle to make the twerps look more competent and heroic, not for character foils or anything like that.
I never said the fact that Team Skull are ineffectual villains excuses the lack of rivalry between them and Ash and his friends. I said the fact that they are ineffectual villains excuses the fact that they are jobbers to Ash and his friends. They aren't really supposed to be very competent; they are "tough gangsters," troublemakers who put up a tough front but who are more bark than bite. Making them ineffectual villains is staying true to their in-game characters.

You make it sound like Team Skull has been featured in tons of episodes, when they haven't. I'm not going to bother to go through the episode list and count, but they've only been in about a half dozen episodes. One of those episodes created a rivalry with Team Rocket that unfortunately has gone absolutely nowhere since, one episode gave one member a backstory, and the third episode added a bit of characterization to one member. While they have mostly been fodder for Z-Moves, that's not all they have been.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
It doesn't change the fact that villain face offs, while downplayed in SM, are still frequent altogether. TS and TR combined must still go up against the twerps roughly a third of the series, and for most of season one they were among some of the blandest scenarios. Season Two is SLIGHTLY better but still not remarkable. Many fans were also quite underwhelmed by the AF arc too, and they had lots of resource material to go from with that.

Whether the villain is bumbling/competent/serious/funny/etc, none of these give an excuse for their presence to make the rest of the show boring. This is why I don't think TR is fully resolved because while it definitely improves the situation to give them other more interesting things to do, they're stuck with the problem that their main role is detested. The problem isn't solved, just hidden better.
 
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MidnightMelody

Hopeful for Gen 8
I for one am hoping as soon as this arc is done he goes straight to Poni for his final Kahuna battle. Which could take us to mid June. Maybe filler till the movie and a league by August/September?
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
I for one am hoping as soon as this arc is done he goes straight to Poni for his final Kahuna battle. Which could take us to mid June. Maybe filler till the movie and a league by August/September?

Seems unlikely tbh, since the UB arc is still going on, and then there's Necrozma as well. I personally see the UB arc, Necrozma being dealt with, and Naganadel's possible farewell all happening before a league. I personally think the Ula'ula arc won't last beyond episode 80. After that, it'll likely be a few fillers again, and more UB's. Then the Poni arc could begin, and again wrap up in 5 episodes, with the final UB's being dealt with, and then Necrozma.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
And there is the matter of Rainbow Rocket. Giovanni's recent spotlight implies that it could appear in the anime. Maybe be tied to Necrozma.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
The recent episode does leave me interested in TR. They actually got to level grind. It would especially be entertaining if they were allowed to keep this up, getting more Z Crystals and Pokemon/attacks to correspond to them.

The thing is though, while it might make for some good individual limelight, the point still stands about if it makes a difference against the twerps. To make them more effective they not only need to put up a better fight, but they have to make the twerps put up a good enough counter attack to make them an entertaining threat. Even in DP they had moments of being halfway competent, just the twerps won easily through dumb luck/DEM instead of curb stomp. The formula still stood, they were still ineffective and the twerps will still altered into boring invincible heroes whenever they appeared.

They've got Z Moves but will we get a good battle between them and Ash now....or will they just spam Bewear a little more often?

I think part of the problem is solved in a way. As in, they made Team Rocket more useful and less of a pain. Look at their chemistry with Team Skull, which was there and had some degree of importance in the TR vs TS episode. I do think that they don't have much chemistry with the SM group compared to OS (for obvious reasons) but they have been settling with the idea of Meowth holding some form of relationship with Ash's then Litten, Ash and Prof Kukui hosting Marieanie in one episode, and Mimikyu having a rivalry with Pikachu. I do enjoy the moments of sassy comments between the group towards the TRio sometimes.:p They were at their worst in DP by appearing almost every damn episode, diluting back to their ironically unfunny comedic & useless selves in XY(&Z) and the rest of BW2+DA right when they were promoted and took their jobs seriously for once... AND succeeding at it. Here in SM, I feel like they're at the perfect balance. They're not appearing as much (sorry Zoruagible) yet makes an appearance when it's necessary, are given pretty tough Pokémon, and have their personalities in tact. I'd rather the TRio are given decent roles at the expense of not appearing that often as they used to then to be the annoyance distraction of the episode. Do you not remember when some users were saying that the show was relying on the TRio as a crutch for being the threat of the day? That they were the only ones that were easiest to use to cause trouble, never changing the status quo?

(Sorry I didn't properly reply to this. Did you edit it later?).

Team Skull vs Team Rocket was fun, but it was ONE episode. Same for the Mareanie episode (compared to even DP and XY where they had a fair deal of team ups/sympathetic moments with the twerps). Meowth and Mimikyu's rivalries are more or less one sided, Litten and Pikachu barely acknowledge them at all, not even in a comical sort of apathy, and the sassy comments are also kept to a bare minimum besides odd episodes like the baseball one, otherwise it's 'stock hero' quotes. The only thing that gets a consistently funny reaction out of the twerps from TR is Bewear, otherwise they generally stone wall them no matter how weird they act, which looks especially odd with how comical the twerps act towards almost everything else.

Even in DP I remember a bit more palpable banter or funny moments between the twerps and the TRio (eg. mocking their motto), and while DA brought TR back down to buffoons again, the silly moments between the twerps came with it (which helped a lot of their appearances and was actually a large redeeming factor in that season).

My problem with XYZ and SM isn't just that the twerps always win easily, but it's the points they barely have ANY slither of personality when TR enter. It's completely automated. Even the fact they're incompetent doesn't feel like an excuse because plenty of heroes have funny face offs with incompetent villains (as they did in the OS), but with the twerps it's pretty much just 'TEAM ROCKET!', an 'I'll stop you' generic quote and a couple of attacks. Whenever them or another baddie appear it's an excuse to write the twerps as completely and utterly boring.

This is why I'm still skeptical about TR getting a Z Ring since we still haven't seen if it changes a damn thing in how they write the twerps against them. There's only so much of a show you can put on when your co-star refuses to bounce off of you.
 
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