Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

[Jeal]

If an episode focuses on one of the classmates, then it classifies as a character development episode, and therefore is not filler. (I use the term "character development" to refer to fleshing out a character as well as to character progression.)

Oh, really? So why in previous sagas when episodes focused on main characters were revealed, but nothing important happened, everyone started to complain and call filler? Is now called character development/fleshing out characters? Of course, since the SM characters do not have many episodes focused on them, any episode is counted as character development. There are no more fillers, is there? They were just fillers in past sagas.

 

[Satomine Night]

Oh, really? So why in previous sagas when episodes focused on main characters were revealed, but nothing important happened, everyone started to complain and call filler? Is now called character development/fleshing out characters? Of course, since the SM characters do not have many episodes focused on them, any episode is counted as character development. There are no more fillers, is there? They were just fillers in past sagas

First off, I was never one of those people who called an episode filler when it focused on one of the main characters, so you can't say "everyone" did that. If an episode develops a character—whether it's fleshing out a character or progressing a character—then it's not filler. A true filler episode is one that does not develop the plot or the characters, and can be skipped without missing anything.

Secondly, I never said there are no filler episodes in SM. Of course there are. But episodes that focus on the main characters are not filler.

 

[noakai]

First off, I was never one of those people who called an episode filler when it focused on one of the main characters, so you can't say "everyone" did that. If an episode develops a character—whether it's fleshing out a character or progressing a character—then it's not filler. A true filler episode is one that does not develop the plot or the characters, and can be skipped without missing anything.

Secondly, I never said there are no filler episodes in SM. Of course there are. But episodes that focus on the main characters are not filler.

There are even people who consider any episode where there's not an evolution, capture or gym/league battle filler. I remember someone making a big huge "must watch" list and only including those things so you barely saw any development of characters and Pokemon at all and even plot stuff got left off, it was just point A to point X. Not everyone agrees on what counts as filler for sure.

 

[Xuxuba]

First off, I was never one of those people who called an episode filler when it focused on one of the main characters, so you can't say "everyone" did that. If an episode develops a character—whether it's fleshing out a character or progressing a character—then it's not filler. A true filler episode is one that does not develop the plot or the characters, and can be skipped without missing anything.

Secondly, I never said there are no filler episodes in SM. Of course there are. But episodes that focus on the main characters are not filler.

I agree about episodes developing characters not being fillers but just fleshing out a character isn't enough to make something not a filler. Most of the fillers have them fleshing out some characters. Naruto fillers for example give a lot of screentime to recurring characters and show some of their traits but does that make it important to the overall story and the characters' development.? Nope.

 

[ShadowForce720]

I agree about episodes developing characters not being fillers but just fleshing out a character isn't enough to make something not a filler. Most of the fillers have them fleshing out some characters. Naruto fillers for example give a lot of screentime to recurring characters and show some of their traits but does that make it important to the overall story and the characters' development.? Nope.

The problem is your comparing pokemon filler to another anime's filler as if there they same type of filler, it's important to note that what's consider filler in pokemon is not the same thing as what's considered filler in other anime like Naruto which is based off a manga, as filler in Naruto is talking about any episode and events that didn't happen in the manga, so basically meaning that in Naruto it does not matter if during the filler something important happens as it's still considered filler since it didn't happen in the manga, where as filler in pokemon takes on a bit of a different meaning since pokemon is not based of a manga.

 

[Xuxuba]

The problem is your comparing pokemon filler to another anime's filler as if there they same type of filler, it's important to note that what's consider filler in pokemon is not the same thing as what's considered filler in other anime like Naruto which is based off a manga, as filler in Naruto is talking about any episode and events that didn't happen in the manga, so basically meaning that in Naruto it does not matter if during the filler something important happens as it's still considered filler since it didn't happen in the manga, where as filler in pokemon takes on a bit of a different meaning since pokemon is not based of a manga.

Doesn't matter whether you think the definition of a filler is different for that series. There are also plenty of Pokemon fillers where they flesh out a character but the episode has absolutely no relevance to the story or the characters' development. Did the mall episode flesh out Sophocles? Yes. Did it serve any role to the overall story? No. Did it change/developed the character? Nope. Could the series have gone without that episode? Yes, all it did was give pointless screentime to a certain character. Maybe you enjoyed the episode or liked knowing more about Sophocles but that doesn't make it any less of a filler.

 

[Satomine Night]

Doesn't matter whether you think the definition of a filler is different for that series. There are also plenty of Pokemon fillers where they flesh out a character but the episode has absolutely no relevance to the story or the characters' development. Did the mall episode flesh out Sophocles? Yes. Did it serve any role to the overall story? No. Did it change/developed the character? Nope. Could the series have gone without that episode? Yes, all it did was give pointless screentime to a certain character. Maybe you enjoyed the episode or liked knowing more about Sophocles but that doesn't make it any less of a filler.

You seem to be defining non-filler as an episode that progresses the plot and/or the characters—that is, an episode that moves things forward—and I disagree with that definition. Fleshing out characters is just as important, and is just as much character development, as progressing characters, and so episodes that flesh out characters shouldn't be considered filler. SM06 may not have progressed Sophocles's character, but it fleshed out his character, and so however boring it was, it was not filler, in my book.

 

[DatsRight]

You seem to be defining non-filler as an episode that progresses the plot and/or the characters—that is, an episode that moves things forward—and I disagree with that definition. Fleshing out characters is just as important, and is just as much character development, as progressing characters, and so episodes that flesh out characters shouldn't be considered filler. SM06 may not have progressed Sophocles's character, but it fleshed out his character, and so however boring it was, it was not filler, in my book.

This. A lot of episodic character centric episodes are worth keeping. Establishment and hidden depths can be just as important as the dynamic ongoing plot, especially since a lot of characters get fun bits of personality during their 'off time' moments.

This is something I will give credit to SM for. A lot of previous anime filler episodes were just standard formula, TR or COTD and didn't often feel like they added much to the cast, while SM tries some unique directions and is a bit more character centric.

 

[Navin]

First off, I was never one of those people who called an episode filler when it focused on one of the main characters, so you can't say "everyone" did that. If an episode develops a character—whether it's fleshing out a character or progressing a character—then it's not filler. A true filler episode is one that does not develop the plot or the characters, and can be skipped without missing anything.

Secondly, I never said there are no filler episodes in SM. Of course there are. But episodes that focus on the main characters are not filler.

Unlike XY (or previous series for that matter), where it was super easy for me to make that Non-Filler List, SM is trickier because of the slice-of-life nature of the episodes. That's why Owen moved on to the 'Class' system.

 

[DatsRight]

Breaking topic, it seems Lycanroc still has it's Rockruff personality, so I'm happy again. For at least this one season, Lycanroc's cathartically broke some trends. It was shown training for it's attacks, had it's evolution through story rather than DEM and even avoids the 'killjoy evolved Pokemon' syndrome by being expressive and taking part in some of the light hearted scenes.

 

[Rajas]

Like I said, Ash has always been slightly on the shorter side compared to other children his age. I think he is shorter than all of the PokéGirls except Iris, May, and Lana. We also don't know how old Mallow is. You're assuming she is also 10 years old, but she may actually be a year or two older than Ash. No one ever said all of the students in Ash's class are the same age.


Why is Ash battling the Kahunas? Simple—to earn the Z-Crystals they award Trainers who defeat them. Remember, Z-Crystals have to be legitimately earned in order to be used. Ash learned that in the second episode, when the Electrium-Z with which Tapu Koko gifted him shattered after their battle, because he (according to Kiawe) hadn't properly earned it.

Lana didn't earn Waterium-Z by fishing; she earned it by defeating Totem Wishiwashi, just as Ash earned Normalium-Z by defeating Totem Gumshoos and Grassium-Z by defeating Totem Lurantis. She didn't battle Olivia because she is not participating in the Island Challenge. (And before you bring up Kiawe, he battled Olivia to prove he was worthy of inheriting his grandfather's Z-Ring and Firium-Z. He was not participating in the Island Challenge, either.)

As Professor Kukui said, there are multiple ways to earn Z-Crystals, but the easiest way is through the Island Challenge.

Yeah, now that you mention it I do recall that so I suppose it makes sense. I guess the trials in general just seem off as even the battles in them aren't as conventional as before so it's something to get used to. Don't think we had an official battle since Olivia where the result mattered. With respect to the height thing, yeah I realize he was shorter more times than most but I guess it's just a combination of things that just feel a bit off to me. It's not anything to turn me off entirely though as I am quite fond of SM.

 

[satopi]

Breaking topic, it seems Lycanroc still has it's Rockruff personality, so I'm happy again. For at least this one season, Lycanroc's cathartically broke some trends. It was shown training for it's attacks, had it's evolution through story rather than DEM and even avoids the 'killjoy evolved Pokemon' syndrome by being expressive and taking part in some of the light hearted scenes.

Yeah and it seems to be having a friendly rivalry with Litten out of all sorts. I'm glad Lycanroc still has some elements of Rockruff inside it despite it getting bigger. I bet Litten thinks it could take Lycanroc.

 

[Leonhart]

Yeah, but that's not what happened. I knew from the beginning that it would not happen. All we had were the same useless fillers as ever, with a few fillers episodes focused on the classmates.

It didn't happen exactly the way I wanted, but I never expected SM to be totally perfect in the first place. I can at least tolerate a few disappointments, although I don't mind every SM filler since some of them have been fun, such as the pancake race episode.

 

[DatsRight]

Like I said, Ash has always been slightly on the shorter side compared to other children his age. I think he is shorter than all of the PokéGirls except Iris, May, and Lana. We also don't know how old Mallow is. You're assuming she is also 10 years old, but she may actually be a year or two older than Ash. No one ever said all of the students in Ash's class are the same age.

I think the anime goes with the girls usually growing faster than the boys during the pre-teen years. Most cases the girls are shorter than the main protagonist is when they have more of a 'little sister' dynamic with Ash (I think that's why May started off taller than Ash then 'shrunk' when they figured out their dynamic). I admit Lillie might have worked being May's later height in that regard, though she was tall in the games as well. Perhaps Serena too, since it would have played more into her crush feeling a bit daunting. Dawn was about the exact same height as Ash which fit being his kindred spirit/equal. As for Mallow, I think she and Kiawe represent the slightly older students and are usually the ones explaining things, so fit proportions they're 'talking down to the others'.

I admit one thing I like about the SM companions is variety in design and proportions. Sophociles doesn't resemble any of the previous main characters.

Why is Ash battling the Kahunas? Simple—to earn the Z-Crystals they award Trainers who defeat them. Remember, Z-Crystals have to be legitimately earned in order to be used. Ash learned that in the second episode, when the Electrium-Z with which Tapu Koko gifted him shattered after their battle, because he (according to Kiawe) hadn't properly earned it.

Lana didn't earn Waterium-Z by fishing; she earned it by defeating Totem Wishiwashi, just as Ash earned Normalium-Z by defeating Totem Gumshoos and Grassium-Z by defeating Totem Lurantis. She didn't battle Olivia because she is not participating in the Island Challenge. (And before you bring up Kiawe, he battled Olivia to prove he was worthy of inheriting his grandfather's Z-Ring and Firium-Z. He was not participating in the Island Challenge, either.)

As Professor Kukui said, there are multiple ways to earn Z-Crystals, but the easiest way is through the Island Challenge.

I think I'm the only one that's enjoying Ash's battles so far in SM. He still seems really resourceful and puts his and his Pokemon's own character to his methods. He also tends to only use Z Moves as a pinpointed finisher rather than every single time he's on the ropes like how some other anime spam power ups (eg. Sonic X's power rings). I appreciate that while Ash has gotten some hand outs throughout SM (Tapu Koko GIVING his the Z Ring) it still feels like he's working for a lot of his progression. Pikachu is about the only one that hasn't been shown training heavily, which if anything only makes sense given how experienced he's supposed to be. It genuinely feels like Ash's character is driving his plot again (even if I expect this will come to a halt once the league comes into play, though it at least feels like a side arc this time round).

 

[Rajas]

I think I'm the only one that's enjoying Ash's battles so far in SM. He still seems really resourceful and puts his and his Pokemon's own character to his methods. He also tends to only use Z Moves as a pinpointed finisher rather than every single time he's on the ropes like how some other anime spam power ups (eg. Sonic X's power rings). I appreciate that while Ash has gotten some hand outs throughout SM (Tapu Koko GIVING his the Z Ring) it still feels like he's working for a lot of his progression. Pikachu is about the only one that hasn't been shown training heavily, which if anything only makes sense given how experienced he's supposed to be. It genuinely feels like Ash's character is driving his plot again (even if I expect this will come to a halt once the league comes into play, though it at least feels like a side arc this time round).

I enjoy the battles as well, what I don't enjoy is how few and far in between they are. The Z-Ring handout is just him getting chosen I suppose but this Ash does have a lot of potential.

 

[DatsRight]

I enjoy the battles as well, what I don't enjoy is how few and far in between they are. The Z-Ring handout is just him getting chosen I suppose but this Ash does have a lot of potential.

I don't mind hand outs if the character is still using their own skills and initiative to make them work (ie. proving they deserve it), rather than the power doing everything and the story just saying it's because the character is 'special'. I do admit I'd like to see Ash struggle a bit more with the Z Ring, at least have one move fail that wasn't down to teething troubles, given even Olivia and Kiawe have had a competently done one prove useless. We've seen him training and working out kinks but otherwise they're a bit too infallible on Ash's part. As said though the Z Ring doesn't feel like the core of his battles anyway.

Similarly Sophociles was handed Charjabug, but it's one limelight episode so far shows Sophociles actually studying his new Pokemon and using it resourcefully (the little guy needs to be used more really).

 

[Jeal]

I enjoy the battles as well, what I don't enjoy is how few and far in between they are. The Z-Ring handout is just him getting chosen I suppose but this Ash does have a lot of potential.

The lack of battles is a problem since XY. I hope the next saga does not have this problem.

 

[Rajas]

I don't mind hand outs if the character is still using their own skills and initiative to make them work (ie. proving they deserve it), rather than the power doing everything and the story just saying it's because the character is 'special'. I do admit I'd like to see Ash struggle a bit more with the Z Ring, at least have one move fail that wasn't down to teething troubles, given even Olivia and Kiawe have had a competently done one prove useless. We've seen him training and working out kinks but otherwise they're a bit too infallible on Ash's part. As said though the Z Ring doesn't feel like the core of his battles anyway.

Similarly Sophociles was handed Charjabug, but it's one limelight episode so far shows Sophociles actually studying his new Pokemon and using it resourcefully (the little guy needs to be used more really).

Agreed, I am happy Ash doesn't rely on the Z-Move but uses it at smart times. Wrt Sophocles, he needs some work on his character, kinda makes me wonder if there's just too much in the school. Maybe some should have just been trial captains.

The lack of battles is a problem since XY. I hope the next saga does not have this problem.

It's bothering me a lot more now tbh, XY I still found it okay as there were other battles here and there but now it feels like no battles are finished in SM, for example last episode where Jessie returns Mimikyu before he strikes Pikachu. Just feels off.

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

There needs to be more battles for the companions. Ash is already guaranteed the grand trial battles and he has the main character status and I would like for the companions to be involved more in battles. Hopefully there's some kind of battling tournament in the series.

 

[DatsRight]

I don't mind the other students having non-battle utilities so long as they get as much substance and purpose as the battle ones. As shown with the likes of Serena and Mallow, forcing characters who aren't battle accustomed into constant battle situations like TR/COTD fights just doesn't work, they're either too novice to make it interesting or need everything dumbed down or interrupted just to make them look good superficially.

Sophociles' team I don't mind having only the odd lite battles since Sophociles is innovative in how they are utilised otherwise, he just needs some sort of grounded long term agenda to work with and more times his Pokemon's abilities come in handy to the plot. Mallow should probably be the same, but they need to make her restaurant goal more entertaining and find a better way for Steenee to shine.

Kiawe and Lana could use the battle limelight though, they have more developed battle prowess plus Z Rings, and even entertaining defined styles they use their Pokemon. Lana does at least seem to be looking into other agendas like performing or tricks (again needs more defining) but Kiawe right now seems to be a type master/battler enthusiast. Turtonator is too freaking badass not to use and develop and we still need Kiawe to use Marowak at all.

Ash is the opposite, he's good at battles, but sucks at most other Poke events, though most of the bad stuff he is at least allowed to fail fully and miserably at so they can at least play off the entertainment value of that (unlike battle formulas like TR where the unadvanced protagonist has to still be protected and win in at least some spurious manner), and even with the shortage of battles, there's enough of them and other related stuff like the trials and training moments to balance it out and show he is competent.