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Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

SinnohEevee

Well-Known Member
Not really because if the writers truly didn't care about progression then Ash probably would have just been stuck in the Top 16-Top 8 in each region, and yet we know that's not the case, and plus let's be honest here most people didn't even think Ash would ever wind up being in the Top 2 in a league and thought that the writers would only ever let him get to Top 4, so no matter what gen it will be presuming that their will be more leagues at some point it's not really a question of it if Ash will win a league as a more question of when and how long it will be before wining a league and which generation it will be.

When the show ends, maybe in 20 more years or more. I think the anime can even survive making him lose 20 Leagues.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Unova and Kalos don't count that much.

In Unova, his mentality and team choices were mediocre at best.

In Kalos, we were lucky we got to see two full battles, and he happened to be blessed by a super exclusive no one else owned (who got its power cut short in the end), and two of his six team members turned out to be jobbers.
Coming within inches of winning a League doesn't count? In the finals, down to the last Pokemon, one victory away, it was a matter of who fell after the huge explosion. His battles mostly weren't shown, but obviously won 5 battles in a row to reach the finals, and from what we saw from the glimpses of vs Titus and vs Astrid, he most probably curbstomped the first four rounds.

The progression is ultimately pointless since Ash will never win the League until the show ends.

So really, what is even the point of Ash reaching the top 2?

He can't possibly go beyond that, so now whatever he reaches next will be disappointing and just cause more complaints from fans.

Well there can't be a constant regression in a show you know. As he has reached Top 2 once, the writers will either have to make him win in the future or making him constantly regress. The latter would only earn constant disappointment from fans, so the writers probably won't do that.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
When the show ends, maybe in 20 more years or more. I think the anime can even survive making him lose 20 Leagues.

Not really because no matter how you look at it saying that Ash will lose 20 more major leagues is unrealistic because whether you want to admit or not there has been progression with how he has progress through the leagues as pointed out it broke down like this:

Kanto: Top 16
Johto(with reserves): Top 8
Hoenn(No reserves): Top 8
Sinnoh(with reserves): Top 4
Unova(No reserves): Top 8
Kalos(No reserves): Top 2

eventually he is going to win a league and likely that it won't require him to lose 20 more leagues, and no the show does not end when he wins a league because winning a league does not automatically make him a pokemon master which is his goal.

While the writer might have him lose a few more leagues it just unrealistic to say oh that he will just lose 20 more leagues and no one will care, because regardless of what you think if Ash lost 20 more leagues it would essentially mean that Ash's progress is at a standstill which is frozen, the reason why Ash losing the league hasn't hurt the writers significantly is because Kanto-Sinnoh showed that Ash was getting progressively better and even though he did regress in Unova, he then in Kalos wind up improving to the point to where he got his highest ranking in a league yet.

If Ash's progress stays in a standstill then yes that is eventually going to hurt the show faster then you think.
 
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SinnohEevee

Well-Known Member
Coming within inches of winning a League doesn't count? In the finals, down to the last Pokemon, one victory away, it was a matter of who fell after the huge explosion. His battles mostly weren't shown, but obviously won 5 battles in a row to reach the finals, and from what we saw from the glimpses of vs Titus and vs Astrid, he most probably curbstomped the first four rounds.



Well there can't be a constant regression in a show you know. As he has reached Top 2 once, the writers will either have to make him win in the future or making him constantly regress. The latter would only earn constant disappointment from fans, so the writers probably won't do that.

Or they just keep him as he is. Maybe they will skip the League too.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
EDIT: I know the show won't have to end when he wine one, but the stubborn executives seem to believe so.

You do realize that if the writers and executives truly didn't care about progress that Ash would literally only be getting Top 16-8 each league and yet the fact that in one league he made it to Top 4 and then in the last league he made it to Top 2. So no, they do care about progress.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Not really because if the writers truly didn't care about progression then Ash probably would have just been stuck in the Top 16-Top 8 in each region, and yet we know that's not the case, and plus let's be honest here most people didn't even think Ash would ever wind up being in the Top 2 in a league and thought that the writers would only ever let him get to Top 4, so no matter what gen it will be presuming that their will be more leagues at some point it's not really a question of it if Ash will win a league as a more question of when and how long it will be before wining a league and which generation it will be.

As for him not being able to go beyond Top 2, may I point out that I'm pretty sure some people said the same thing about going beyond Top 4 and yet that didn't stop Ash from getting Top 2 in Kalos. Plus it's not like oh if Ash wins the league that the show would have to end or his journey would have to end because it's not like him winning a league automatically makes him a pokemon master, and before you try to say that oh well Pokémon Master is such a vague goal as it's not known what it takes to become one and is left open to interpretation that does not mean that the show has to end when Ash wins a league.

Because saying that the show ends or Ash's journey would have to end if Ash wins a league is basically saying that Ash winning a league would make him pokemon master which isn't the case.

Not really because no matter how you look at it saying that Ash will lose 20 more major leagues is unrealistic because whether you want to admit or not there has been progression with how he has progress through the leagues as pointed out it broke down like this:

Kanto: Top 16
Johto(with reserves): Top 8
Hoenn(No reserves): Top 8
Sinnoh(with reserves): Top 4
Unova(No reserves): Top 8
Kalos(No reserves): Top 2

eventually he is going to win a league and likely that it won't require him to lose 20 more leagues, and no the show does not end when he wins a league because winning a league does not automatically make him a pokemon master which is his goal.

While the writer might have him lose a few more leagues it just unrealistic to say oh that he will just lose 20 more leagues and no one will care, because regardless of what you think if Ash lost 20 more leagues it would essentially mean that Ash's progress is at a standstill which is frozen, the reason why Ash losing the league hasn't hurt the writers significantly is because Kanto-Sinnoh showed that Ash was getting progressively better and even though he did regress in Unova, he then in Kalos wind up improving to the point to where he got his highest ranking in a league yet.

If Ash's progress stays in a standstill then yes that is eventually going to hurt the show faster then you think.

Yes exactly. This is the thing other's aren't understanding. Ash has been progressing. The writers do care about progression and that is evident from Ash's improvement in the League rankings. Obviously the fact that writers care more about promoting the next games is a case, but there is still a way from Ash to win a League and continue travelling. Winning a League honestly doesn't end the anime.
 

Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
I hope for the anime's sake that its target audience is overall still generally the same as its actual audience. I honestly don't think it is. If I'm wrong though, I'd like to know.
 

Everything12

Well-Known Member
Maybe it isn't a regression maybe the trainers that league are stronger than in the other leagues or perhaps Ash got unlike and he faced a trainer too strong for him to beat but the challenge after that is someone he could've beat theirs a multitude of ways in which they can have Ash get less than second place without showing he regress. Also no matter how much you want it not to exist and no matter how much you blame it on Ash regression the writers still made Ash have a lower ranking in the Unova League so whats stopping them from doing that again, they have clearly shown that they can and will make his position in the league lower. Well not that it matter I really don't care how high he gets the amount of battles will be the same either way and it won't effect their quality.

Its audience, despite how much everyone on this forum and other place like to pretend its not, is Japanese children and while I'm not sure because I don't live in Japan and don't have the rating their probably the ones who give it a majority of its views.
 
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Coming within inches of winning a League doesn't count? In the finals, down to the last Pokemon, one victory away, it was a matter of who fell after the huge explosion. His battles mostly weren't shown, but obviously won 5 battles in a row to reach the finals, and from what we saw from the glimpses of vs Titus and vs Astrid, he most probably curbstomped the first four rounds.

We barely saw any fighting from him. Yes, he won his previous battles, but in a show like this, seeing (the full picture) is believing. And he had a super exclusive like I said.

Besides, an Altaria with no Mega Stone?
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
Maybe it isn't a regression maybe the trainers that league are stronger than in the other leagues or perhaps Ash got unlike and he faced a trainer too strong for him to beat but the challenge after that is someone he could've beat theirs a multitude of ways in which they can have Ash get less than second place without showing he regress. Also no matter how much you want it not to exist and no matter how much you blame it on Ash regression the writers still made Ash have a lower ranking in the Unova League so whats stopping them from doing that again, they have clearly shown that they can and will make his position in the league lower. Well not that it matter I really don't care how high he gets the amount of battles will be the same either way and it won't effect their quality.

Again what your saying would mean that Ash's progress would be in a stand still and Ash getting a lower ranking in the Unova League does not change the fact that Ash got his highest ranking yet in the following league being Top 2 in the Kalos league which may I remind you that is something that quite a few people were sure that it would never happen and yet it did , so no matter how you look at it Ash will have to win a league eventually sure they could have him go down in the next league or lose to stronger trainers in the next couple leagues but to say that he will lose the next 20 leagues or will never win a league is unrealistic.

Plus let's not use the target audience as a excuse because if Ash stays at complete standstill at the league and has no progress what so ever and just keeps losing league after league then eventually yes it will hurt the show and most likely it would happen faster then you think.
 
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Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
I'm definitely going to have lots of unsalted fries, chips, crackers, and pretzels ready for when League time (if applicable) comes around.
 
I'm definitely going to have lots of unsalted fries, chips, crackers, and pretzels ready for when League time (if applicable) comes around.

Let's see if the anime writers want to make Litten so special for Ash come League time.

But since there's no transformation thingies this time around, it'll surely be an extra exclusive Z-move (that will get overpowered by another Z-move anyone else can get. Ha ha).
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Sailor Galaxi-witch
Let's see if the anime writers want to make Litten so special for Ash come League time.

But since there's no transformation thingies this time around, it'll surely be an extra exclusive Z-move (that will get overpowered by another Z-move anyone else can get. Ha ha).

Please keep Litten unevolved or in it's middle stage; we don't need another Ash Greninja situation :/
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself. I found most of XY's early filler generic, same-y, and forgettable. I remember maybe two of them. I don't think all of SM's fillers are good, but at least the writers are attempting to experiment a little bit and deviate from the tired old CotD formula.

Ash's quest is not the only thing that matters.

Except maybe to you.
What hipocrisy. You question my opinion and 345ash-greninja's but don't question Pokegirl Fan's and Hunter's. Why? Oh right, because you agree with them.
Yet they don't get hated on like SM so far; double standards I guess :/
You are not the best person to talk about double standards.
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical optimist
What hipocrisy. You question my opinion and 345ash-greninja's but don't question Pokegirl Fan's and Hunter's. Why? Oh right, because you agree with them.

You are not the best person to talk about double standards.

the problem is you're making a huge claim that the XY fillers are objectively better than SM fillers. The others aren't making some outlandish claim, they're saying your claim is wrong.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
Those were very old episodes. I doubt the fanbase even remembers that they were filler. :/

Heck, even I don't remember these episodes at all.

Either that, or they're protected by nostalgia.
My only point being that these types of episodes have been happening since OS. They're nothing new.

XY had two examples, actually. "Party Dancecapades" (filler except for Eevee evolving) and "The Bamboozling Forest" (filler except for Jessie catching Pumpkaboo). Although to be fair, these "filler-ish" episodes basically don't happen to Ash, and XY(Z) had fewer captures and was longer than the Indigo League saga. In that case, it becomes a quality over quantity scenario. Fewer captures in more episodes means the writers don't have to "tack on" any captures.

And SM will assuredly have more captures and evolutions among the supporting cast. Lana, Mallow, Kiawe, and Lillie will probably get at least one more Pokemon each, and everyone except Kiawe has at least one Pokemon that can evolve. If we assume anither 140 epusode series, then yeah, these "filler-ish" episodes are probably unavoidable.
 

Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
For a little while I thought that SM could only be a two-year series since things started off going so fast. I mean first Grand Trial at episode 10.
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
My only point being that these types of episodes have been happening since OS. They're nothing new.

XY had two examples, actually. "Party Dancecapades" (filler except for Eevee evolving) and "The Bamboozling Forest" (filler except for Jessie catching Pumpkaboo). Although to be fair, these "filler-ish" episodes basically don't happen to Ash, and XY(Z) had fewer captures and was longer than the Indigo League saga. In that case, it becomes a quality over quantity scenario. Fewer captures in more episodes means the writers don't have to "tack on" any captures.

And SM will assuredly have more captures and evolutions among the supporting cast. Lana, Mallow, Kiawe, and Lillie will probably get at least one more Pokemon each, and everyone except Kiawe has at least one Pokemon that can evolve. If we assume anither 140 epusode series, then yeah, these "filler-ish" episodes are probably unavoidable.

You are not understanding. The problem is not there are episodes like this, the problem is most of the series being episodes like that. Out of 28 episodes, just 13 were plot-focused episodes.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
My only point being that these types of episodes have been happening since OS. They're nothing new.

XY had two examples, actually. "Party Dancecapades" (filler except for Eevee evolving) and "The Bamboozling Forest" (filler except for Jessie catching Pumpkaboo). Although to be fair, these "filler-ish" episodes basically don't happen to Ash, and XY(Z) had fewer captures and was longer than the Indigo League saga. In that case, it becomes a quality over quantity scenario. Fewer captures in more episodes means the writers don't have to "tack on" any captures.

And SM will assuredly have more captures and evolutions among the supporting cast. Lana, Mallow, Kiawe, and Lillie will probably get at least one more Pokemon each, and everyone except Kiawe has at least one Pokemon that can evolve. If we assume anither 140 epusode series, then yeah, these "filler-ish" episodes are probably unavoidable.

I don't know about you but that whole episode was based around Eevee overcoming her shyness in a populated setting, which was pretty much her character arc. Yeah, the Amour teases and stuff was thrown around but that was the focus of the episode and the very reason Serena went to the dance in the first place. Ending in Eevee's evolution to Sylveon cemented it as non-filler, so I don't know how you think that was filler until then...I'll give you Bamboozling Forest, though (even if I think it's less egregious on mark of Pumpkaboo actually contributing to the episode beyond just her capture).
 
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