Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

[VoltTacklingPika]

That's what he is, he ain't nothing like AG, DP, or XY Ash

You know, the more I see this passed around, the more I'm convinced people just wilfully ignore certain parts of Ash so he fits their own image.

Ash in XY moaned like a kid when he couldn't get a gym battle as soon as he arrived in Kalos. He ran around Lumiose City all giddy and excited. He couldn't mount a stationary Rhyhorn. He tried to seriously copy Tierno's dance moves. He used to happily declare that he didn't have a clue where he was going when asked. A running gag throughout the series was him getting excited over Clement's inventions.

None of which would look at all out of place in SM, don't you think?

You can find tonnes of stuff of AG and DP, too.

Basically, SM Ash is the same Ash as always. The differences are marginal.

 

[Janovy]

You know, the more I see this passed around, the more I'm convinced people just wilfully ignore certain parts of Ash so he fits their own image.

Ash in XY moaned like a kid when he couldn't get a gym battle as soon as he arrived in Kalos. He ran around Lumiose City all giddy and excited. He couldn't mount a stationary Rhyhorn. He tried to seriously copy Tierno's dance moves. He used to happily declare that he didn't have a clue where he was going when asked. A running gag throughout the series was him getting excited over Clement's inventions.

None of which would look at all out of place in SM, don't you think?

You can find tonnes of stuff of AG and DP, too.

Basically, SM Ash is the same Ash as always. The differences are marginal.

Pretty much.

The so-called Ash fans have no idea about his character or personality and yet talk as if they're experts.

 

[U.N. Owen]

I guess Ash's archetype could be the funny foreigner or even loveable jock. Even the last one is a big stretch.

 

[Johtohfiller]

I don't think Ash needs to fit a school archetype. He hasn't even gone to school up until now.

You know, the more I see this passed around, the more I'm convinced people just wilfully ignore certain parts of Ash so he fits their own image.

Ash in XY moaned like a kid when he couldn't get a gym battle as soon as he arrived in Kalos. He ran around Lumiose City all giddy and excited. He couldn't mount a stationary Rhyhorn. He tried to seriously copy Tierno's dance moves. He used to happily declare that he didn't have a clue where he was going when asked. A running gag throughout the series was him getting excited over Clement's inventions.

None of which would look at all out of place in SM, don't you think?

You can find tonnes of stuff of AG and DP, too.

Basically, SM Ash is the same Ash as always. The differences are marginal.

I agree with this. The difference in SM is due to the lack of action compared to previous series, thus skewing towards his goofy side.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

It's that and also the different level of expression that SM has in its animation. I guess people just see the goofy expressions and the more extreme reactions to things and associate that with him being out of character, when really he's just reacting in a way he always would have. Maybe the presentation of his character is different but the core traits that make up his character are the same as ever.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Beginning: let's see how this tries to follow up the previous series despite the animation changes, though only Ash really sticks out.

Now: They sure are taking some serious liberties with no gyms around.

 

[Satomine Night]

It's that and also the different level of expression that SM has in its animation. I guess people just see the goofy expressions and the more extreme reactions to things and associate that with him being out of character, when really he's just reacting in a way he always would have. Maybe the presentation of his character is different but the core traits that make up his character are the same as ever.

I think this is a big part of it. Ash isn't out of character; he is just more animated. He reacts the same way he always has, for the most part, but with the more fluid, detailed (and occasionally over the top) animation, his reactions seem more exaggerated, at least compared to previous series. However, all of the characters (especially the children and Team Rocket) are animated that way, so it's not just Ash.

 

[Locormus]

I'm getting real close to being done with Sun and Moon. I really liked most of what I saw up and until the Litten capture. That was all amazingly done and worked towards. Then we get a crapton of fillers or at least minimal development - excluding the Gladion-episode. And then instead of working towards a goal over the course of several episodes, we get rushed towards a Grand Trial - all the while apparently trivializing Ash as the main character. There are highlights here and there, but it's defintely not looking to improve if this seems to be the direction they want to be heading in.

I'm just hoping that they just give up on these Trials completely and start delving into a more plot/story-orientated dynamic like XYZ was with Team Flare. If they go back to Melemele for another dozen of beach-episodes and fillers before rushing through Ulaula, then consider me done.

 

[Golden_Latias]

I can understand why people are frustrated. I'm all for having supporting characters that actually get to do something, but not if it comes at Ash's expense. He is the main protagonist, he should be getting more focus and development than the supporting characters rather than being reduced to a clown.

The only reason I'm not frustrated is because I have a feeling the writers are trying to go the Digimon route with this series. Problem is, the Digimon route means everybody has to be on equal footing for some length of time. Everybody has to have a Pokemon or two, and everyone has to have a Z-Ring. Once that is accomplished, the AF plot will kick in, and then, and only then, will Ash (and Lillie) start to receive more focus and development. The supporting characters won't be neglected and will still get to help out, but they won't receive as much focus as Ash and Lillie will. And yes, it also means the Trials will be the B-plot of the series, while the main plot(s) will be the AF and school stuff. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Problem is, unlike Digimon, the Pokemon anime is trying to sell video games and has longer seasons, so there has to be some filler. They've just been airing these fillers in all the wrong places. Is there any reason episodes like SM13, SM16, SM17, SM20, and a few others couldn't take place on Akala Island in between these Trials, for example? Seriously, this pacing reminds me of OS, when Ash got the Marsh, Rainbow, and Soul Badges within a few episodes of each other, then there were a bunch of fillers before he got to Cinnabar.

If they go back to Melemele for another dozen of beach-episodes and fillers before rushing through Ulaula, then consider me done.

I will be upset if this happens, though.

 

[Red and Blue]

Gladion, new captures, evolutions, Skull. There is plenty to do between Ash's possible victory and Ula Ula.

 

[Zoruagible]

You know, two Lana episodes in a row REALLY is unfair now.... look at Kiawe and Mallow, one episode each then it's straight to the Grand Trial! When do THEY get their due?! Sophocles too, I don't want to wait until Ula'Ula for him to finally get another damn episode. It took long enough for him to get his first one, yet Lana got hers straight off the bat on Melemele AND Akala.... the fact people call this fair treatment of characters is laughable, you have to be insane to think it's fair treatment when Kiawe, Sophocles, and Mallow are currently sitting on one episode each while Lillie and Lana got more than that.

If they go back to Melemele for another dozen of beach-episodes and fillers before rushing through Ulaula, then consider me done.

Same here.
I want some more development on Ash's team like evolutions for Litten and Rockruff, Rowlet too maybe. And a fourth capture.
No more fillers like Dugtrio or Baseball please. Or waves of fillers..... Ash's team hasn't progressed since Litten learned Fire Fang! An episode which the dub is airing in two days.... which is just sad.
Bring back Gladion and introduce Null. Introduce ya boi Guzma..... anything but more pointless fillers.

 

[Golden_Latias]

Lillie gets preference because she's the main girl, and Lana probably gets preference because she has a starter. Lana getting two episodes in a row makes sense, because they wouldn't give her the Z-Ring and Waterium-Z in the same episode. If it's rushed for Mallow, it's rushed for her, too. I'm not worried about the others, I'm sure they'll get their focus, because outside of a few stray scenes of her practicing the Z-Move with Popplio, I'm not expecting Lana to do much for some time.

Also, Sophocles has two episodes and played a large enough role in SM19, so he's not in terrible shape, either.

 

[Navin]

I'm just hoping that they just give up on these Trials completely and start delving into a more plot/story-orientated dynamic like XYZ was with Team Flare. If they go back to Melemele for another dozen of beach-episodes and fillers before rushing through Ulaula, then consider me done.

XYZ was an exception since the writers soon realized they were on a deadline, so they had to wrap up all storylines quickly.

I mean, instead of Ash traveling from City A to City B, with fillers in-between, SM is having that filler reworked as a slice-of-life episode of what living and going to school at PokeHawaii would be like.

Maybe that's the point. The adventures, battles, and story aspects will be toned down, and instead this will be a not serious, slice-of-life, going to school, show.

 

[BasedMagikarp]

you have to be insane to think it's fair treatment when Kiawe, Sophocles, and Mallow are currently sitting on one episode each while Lillie and Lana got more than that.

Didn't Sophocles actually get three focus episodes before any of them though? The one at the mall, the one where he helps train Ash for Tapu Koko, and the one where he thinks he's moving away.

Anyway, I'm unsure about Kiawe, but I think Mallow will get a episode after the Grand trial, about her getting a z-ring.

 

[Spyro39]

Maybe that's the point. The adventures, battles, and story aspects will be toned down, and instead this will be a not serious, slice-of-life, going to school, show.

TBH, I'm concerned with that direction SM is taking. The series can keep the comedy tone and SoL formula, but the heart of Pokemon has always been about adventures and battles. Downplay them, and you run the risk of alienating your fanbase. It's understandable why some fans are both concerned and upset with this series as of right now along with other reasons.

Didn't Sophocles actually get three focus episodes before any of them though? The one at the mall, the one where he helps train Ash for Tapu Koko, and the one where he thinks he's moving away.

Technically, Sophocles has two focused episodes. The mall episode (which sucked), and the one where he thought he was moving away. Sophocles did play a big role in helping Ash train for Tapu Koko, but he wasn't the main focus.

 

[Golden_Latias]

Didn't Sophocles actually get three focus episodes before any of them though? The one at the mall, the one where he helps train Ash for Tapu Koko, and the one where he thinks he's moving away.

Anyway, I'm unsure about Kiawe, but I think Mallow will get a episode after the Grand trial, about her getting a z-ring.

Yeah, I don't think she's getting a Z-Ring in SM35 because I don't really see an opportunity for her to earn one. Emphasis on "earn." Even Lana had to earn hers, because even though she was lucky to find one, she wouldn't have found it in the first place if she hadn't stepped in to protect Stoutland. Plus, Mallow needs to show some progress with her goal IMO. From SM05 onward, we've seen Popplio get better and better at making bubbles. We need to see something similar for Mallow IMO. And SM35 should show some progress for her.

In the Character thread, I theorized Mallow being given her Z-Ring by her brother as a reward for impressing him with her own original recipe or something. Unless Totem Lurantis will give out two Grassium-Z's in SM35, I have no idea how she's going to get a Z-Crystal, but I'm sure the writers will find a way. Given that jigsaw puzzle with Togedemaru using Gigavolt Havoc, they clearly find a way for Sophocles.

Kind of have a feeling Soph is getting his Z-Ring before Mallow is getting hers because of that too.

 

[VoltTacklingPika]

I can understand why people are frustrated. I'm all for having supporting characters that actually get to do something, but not if it comes at Ash's expense. He is the main protagonist, he should be getting more focus and development than the supporting characters rather than being reduced to a clown.

I don't understand. People complained for weeks that the supporting characters weren't doing anything. Now they're doing something the same people are complaining about attention being taken away from Ash. What did people think was going to happen?

If people want the supporting cast to be active and have proper development, the protagonist has to be to take a backseat unless he's directly involved in the supporting character's story.

 

[04n70n10]

It will take time to figure the main plot of Sun and moon. Afterall, for most of XY it was impossible to predict things that come later like Greninja form Ash, the Team Flare Arc with Zygarde and so on.

For now it's not so well-well clear the Ash's goal in this region. More or less... Graduate in the school? completing Grand trials? but so far grand trials seem disconnected from each other (e.g for Kiawe it seems that it was enaught for him to complete only the grand trial of Akala island, his home island), there are no captains although there are totem pokemon, no island challenge amulet, etc, no precise scheme to obtain the crystals (ash probably will collect only few of them (?)), from the start all is really different from the games.

I think something will change with the introduction of Ula'ula (in the games here we have many heavy plot points), probably writers are a bit aware (in very broad terms) of USUM, so until all the stuff of akala are over... things will remain a bit vague. But at the time of Ula'ula probably we will be in USUM territory... and we known that Gladion is not affiliated (..yet? apparently?) with Team Skull, and no type null at least for now.

 

[DatsRight]

You know, two Lana episodes in a row REALLY is unfair now.... look at Kiawe and Mallow, one episode each then it's straight to the Grand Trial! When do THEY get their due?! Sophocles too, I don't want to wait until Ula'Ula for him to finally get another damn episode. It took long enough for him to get his first one, yet Lana got hers straight off the bat on Melemele AND Akala.... the fact people call this fair treatment of characters is laughable, you have to be insane to think it's fair treatment when Kiawe, Sophocles, and Mallow are currently sitting on one episode each while Lillie and Lana got more than that.

I kind of liked the premise of a character getting a small rush of episodes which go into a more developed arc for the character (this might sound odd, but it gave me a bit of nostalgia for the 80s Thomas and Friends series, where they'd take turns having a little marathon of episodes for one character developing, looking back that was a kind of cool idea). I'm fine so long as the other characters actually do ultimately get their fair turn, and Ash still gets to develop his own quest.

I don't understand. People complained for weeks that the supporting characters weren't doing anything. Now they're doing something the same people are complaining about attention being taken away from Ash. What did people think was going to happen?

If people want the supporting cast to be active and have proper development, the protagonist has to be to take a backseat unless he's directly involved in the supporting character's story.

I think their complaints stem more from the fact that Ash hasn't progressed too much (though truthfully besides maybe a gym badge or two, I don't think he was much different in the other series). Ash if anything has gotten the lion's share of limelight in Sun and Moon, but it's mostly for personality development or filler, testing his actual star appeal, which if anything I could argue the companions need a lot more of this series. Guys, it's cool, Ash isn't bland now, you can call him off for a moment.

Mallow in particular has only got ONE limelight episode, and even then a lot of other more vibrant characters felt like they were padding it out (it was also among the few SM episodes that reverted to the old 'Team Rocket interrupts, cue plot armoured evolution' cop out formula instead of just letting the character play their story out). I want to see her carry an episode. Go a little into her vices or quirks more and be willing to ditch Ash and Team Rocket as padding.

 

[Zoruagible]

NO character deserves two episodes in a row, I don't care who they are. Ash being the sole exception since he is THE main character.
Defend Lana getting two episodes unfairly in a row all you guys want, I guarantee if Team Rocket got two in a row you'd all be a bunch of hypocrites and ***** about it though.

Sophocles was just a supporting character in the mall and Tapu Koko rematch, it'd be unfair to say those were Sophocles focus. He didn't even do anything. That'd be like counting the starter trio episode has a Mallow/Lana episode. Farewell Sophocles is the ONLY Sophocles episode. As it stands, Kiawe, Sophocles, and Mallow all only got one episode while Lana hogged two in a row, and Lillie has a few.