Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

[Satomine Night]

I haven't watched Sun and Moon, but reading a few of these post maybe that was a mistake on my part. If the complaints are true and the sidekicks are overshadowing Ash (did I read this right?) then maybe the Sun and Moon anime is the Pokemon anime I've been waiting for. I needed a break from the series after XYZ but Sun and Moon sounds quite interesting now.

The companion characters aren't overshadowing Ash--he still gets most of the limelight as the protagonist, and he usually plays a role even in episodes that don't focus on him--but it does feel like the companion characters are getting more focus than companion characters usually do. I suppose that's because usually Ash and the Pokégirl (who serves as the deuteragonist) get the most attention in most of the series, while third wheel and the fourth load tend to get shafted. While Lillie (who is looking to be the deuteragonist this time around) has gotten more focus than the other companion characters, Kiawe, Mallow, Lana, and Sophocles have not been completely neglected, even if they have not gotten the focus they probably should have.

To tell you the truth, a villain can only be as good as the hero they oppose, and vice versa. Sure TR get downgraded and used excessively much of the time, but the majority of such cases I can't help but feel are made to compensate for the twerps' weakness in character. They're always shoved in as a quick plot device whenever the latter can't carry an episode on their own, and they struggle to be anything more than jobbers because the writers don't seem capable of making the heroes much more compatible with them most of the time. They can be good as characters, but as heroic foils they're shallow as hell and of the 'zero chemistry, tons of plot armour and formula' kind (I don't even buy into the whole 'TR are supposed to be outclassed' excuse, plenty of heroes in fiction are renowned for winning easy but at least making it half way entertaining every episode, eg. Bugs Bunny).

I disagree. I have read books and seen TV shows/movies where the villains far outshine the heroes, and vice versa, so I don't think the issue with Team Rocket is related to the supposed "weakness" of Ash & co.'s characters. The issue is how the writers have chosen to use Team Rocket--as a plot device or an unnecessary source of conflict. I don't think Ash & co.'s characters have much to do with that.

While you would think the more comedy-oriented focus of SM would mean we would see more of Team Rocket's wacky antics, it could be that the writers haven't seen as great a need for them. They don't need to cause trouble in order to resolve the plot of an episode. Ash and his friends are able to carry an episode on their own.

 

[DatsRight]

I disagree. I have read books and seen TV shows/movies where the villains far outshine the heroes, and vice versa, so I don't think the issue with Team Rocket is related to the supposed "weakness" of Ash & co.'s characters. The issue is how the writers have chosen to use Team Rocket--as a plot device or an unnecessary source of conflict. I don't think Ash & co.'s characters have much to do with that.

While you would think the more comedy-oriented focus of SM would mean we would see more of Team Rocket's wacky antics, it could be that the writers haven't seen as great a need for them. They don't need to cause trouble in order to resolve the plot of an episode. Ash and his friends are able to carry an episode on their own.

As characters this is true, but even villains that outshine the heroes tend to be extremely limited in their role as actual villains, most often because they still have to work within the blandness of the heroes' own role. Most outshining villains tend to be stuck in ineffectual and formulaic roles for example, even if they are charismatic about it, because it's the only way they don't end up outclassing a truly unremarkable hero the writers can't be bothered writing intricately.

That only supports that fact though, they don't use Team Rocket as much because they don't NEED to, the heroes work better as actual characters and are working in an often more laid back plot so don't need a basic opposition to always shift focus onto. In cases like XY the heroes' characters were more mundane but trying to work in a more actionized plot that the writers couldn't always work them with (eg. Serena and Bonnie not being battle developed, Ash's more capable but far more vanilla characterisation) and often when they thought of tense plots they were stuck thinking up a good conclusion with them (eg. how exactly could Ash face legendaries and end up not getting his *** kicked) so Team Rocket kept appearing again and again to bail them out as plot devices and keep the story at least superficially action while still effortless to write. Earlier series couldn't make a more cushy episode about one of the heroes thinking they were moving away for example, at least not one revolved utterly around the heroes' antics and not at least some brief superficial action stakes.

 

[Caseydia]

It's seems like a spin off series to me

Like Lana doing trails instead of ash. Imagine if Serena battled gym but ash got the badge

Trails all seems like back burner to the school events and meleme filler

You're overreacting. Lana was always a hard worker and I think you are over estimating on what Ash needs to do rather than what he is given with.

 

[Golden_Latias]

Some thoughts regarding the new information in PokeFan:

Spoiler: Long Post

1. The fact that it's questioning whether or not Lana can use Z-Moves now, to me, suggests that she and Popplio are probably going to struggle with Hydro Vortex. Which is natural. She's not a seasoned Trainer like Ash and Kiawe are, and Popplio doesn't have the experience or battle training that Ash's Pokemon and Turtonator have. Her next episode will probably involve her and Popplio mastering Hydro Vortex, then Popplio will evolve soon after. That should be right in line with season 2 of SM, too.

2. I still think Kiawe is getting a little bit more than just Alolan Marowak. The TV Guide blurb mentioned Z-Moves, but if Alolan Marowak is so quick, would Inferno Overdrive be able to catch it?

3. Hopefully Mallow does get to be involved in the battle with Totem Lurantis somehow. The fact that the summary mentions three battles fought together with Lana, Kiawe, and Mallow gives me some hope, but who knows, it could be exaggerating. Also, it remains to be seen how Mallow will get her Grassium-Z. I don't think the writers are going to wait for Decidueye just to give her the Grassium-Z because that's way too far off in the future, and she shouldn't be denied one just because she doesn't own either a starter or a Pikaclone. I mean, it's not like Steenee isn't a marketable Pokemon or anything. It's got that "cute magical girl" look to it, it's definitely got appeal.

Eh, I might have to see a traiker for this episode before I say anymore.

4. I definitely think Ash is losing to Olivia, and I think that, aside from the fact that they're probably staying on Akala Island, my prediction of the rematch being further in the future rather than soon after may be correct. The fact that it questions whether or not Ash will meet Tapu Lele suggests they're probably not going back immediately, after all, and if Lycanroc-3 is a thing, I would think they'd want to wait for USM to be released before showing it off in a battle. I don't think they've ever shown a new form in the official anime before a new game release, after all.

5. I do think the whole "Rockruff is restless" thing is hinting at evolution. I know Rockruff was excited to battle Gladion's Lycanroc, but this doesn't look like the same thing. I wouldn't say Rockruff looks angry in that picture, but it doesn't look eager and excited like in SM27, either. Also, Ash has that worried expression on his face, as if Rockruff did something it normally wouldn't do. Whatever the case, I think we're definitely going to fet a two or three episode arc involving Rockruff evolving.

This is looking to be an interesting next few weeks, for sure.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Some thoughts regarding the new information in PokeFan:

Spoiler: Long Post

1. The fact that it's questioning whether or not Lana can use Z-Moves now, to me, suggests that she and Popplio are probably going to struggle with Hydro Vortex. Which is natural. She's not a seasoned Trainer like Ash and Kiawe are, and Popplio doesn't have the experience or battle training that Ash's Pokemon and Turtonator have. Her next episode will probably involve her and Popplio mastering Hydro Vortex, then Popplio will evolve soon after. That should be right in line with season 2 of SM, too.

2. I still think Kiawe is getting a little bit more than just Alolan Marowak. The TV Guide blurb mentioned Z-Moves, but if Alolan Marowak is so quick, would Inferno Overdrive be able to catch it?

3. Hopefully Mallow does get to be involved in the battle with Totem Lurantis somehow. The fact that the summary mentions three battles fought together with Lana, Kiawe, and Mallow gives me some hope, but who knows, it could be exaggerating. Also, it remains to be seen how Mallow will get her Grassium-Z. I don't think the writers are going to wait for Decidueye just to give her the Grassium-Z because that's way too far off in the future, and she shouldn't be denied one just because she doesn't own either a starter or a Pikaclone. I mean, it's not like Steenee isn't a marketable Pokemon or anything. It's got that "cute magical girl" look to it, it's definitely got appeal.

Eh, I might have to see a traiker for this episode before I say anymore.

4. I definitely think Ash is losing to Olivia, and I think that, aside from the fact that they're probably staying on Akala Island, my prediction of the rematch being further in the future rather than soon after may be correct. The fact that it questions whether or not Ash will meet Tapu Lele suggests they're probably not going back immediately, after all, and if Lycanroc-3 is a thing, I would think they'd want to wait for USM to be released before showing it off in a battle. I don't think they've ever shown a new form in the official anime before a new game release, after all.

5. I do think the whole "Rockruff is restless" thing is hinting at evolution. I know Rockruff was excited to battle Gladion's Lycanroc, but this doesn't look like the same thing. I wouldn't say Rockruff looks angry in that picture, but it doesn't look eager and excited like in SM27, either. Also, Ash has that worried expression on his face, as if Rockruff did something it normally wouldn't do. Whatever the case, I think we're definitely going to fet a two or three episode arc involving Rockruff evolving.

This is looking to be an interesting next few weeks, for sure.

They did show 10% and Complete Forme Zygarde in XY even though they weren't released before SM.

 

[Twilight-Kun]

Initial thoughts on SM were positive, but as the series went on, it became much more slapstick and flanderization-oriented, which pushed it back in terms of watchability. SM is perfectly capable of being good (see: Litten) but with the lack of battles and travel, it's become rather bland.

I hope once USM comes out, we'll get a massive boost in quality for the story

 

[Power Up]

Getting worse and worse every single episode, soon Ash will join a competition in comedy

 

[345ash-greninja]

Getting worse and worse every single episode, soon Ash will join a competition in comedy

In terms of his attitude, true. But look on the bright side, he has looked pretty much unbeatable in battles!

 

[Power Up]

In terms of his attitude, true. But look on the bright side, he has looked pretty much unbeatable in battles!

Woot. Maybe he'll win the Alola League!

 

[Golden_Latias]

In terms of his attitude, true. But look on the bright side, he has looked pretty much unbeatable in battles!

Yeah, just what we need him to be. An unstoppable Stu who never loses and never struggles against anyone that's not either a godlike Snowflake Trainer like Gladion or a Legendary Pokemon. I fail to see how that could be entertaining to watch. Swear to God, the writers could give Ash a Magikarp, and he'd find a way to win agaimst a Kahuna with it at this point.

I admit, this Akala arc has even soured my opinion on SM a little bit, both because of how rushed it is and Ash's inevitable DEM victory against Olivia. But there's still plenty of series left, I'm not going to give up on it until it's over.

 

[Power Up]

Yeah, just what we need him to be. An unstoppable Stu who never loses and never struggles against anyone that's not either a godlike Snowflake Trainer like Gladion or a Legendary Pokemon. I fail to see how that could be entertaining to watch. Swear to God, the writers could give Ash a Magikarp, and he'd find a way to win agaimst a Kahuna with it at this point.

I admit, this Akala arc has even soured my opinion on SM a little bit, both because of how rushed it is and Ash's inevitable DEM victory against Olivia. But there's still plenty of series left, I'm not going to give up on it until it's over.

Snowbelle depression arc anyone?

Well I dislike every part of the anime except Lillie and the battles sometimes.

And the fact that the supporting characters are getting more episodes than Ash but they still suck despite that.

 

[Golden_Latias]

Unless something happens to redeem the series a little bit in my eyes, I'm just watching for the supporting characters at this point. They're more interesting than Ash for the most part IMO.

 

[Epicocity]

Yeah, just what we need him to be. An unstoppable Stu who never loses and never struggles against anyone that's not either a godlike Snowflake Trainer like Gladion or a Legendary Pokemon. I fail to see how that could be entertaining to watch. Swear to God, the writers could give Ash a Magikarp, and he'd find a way to win agaimst a Kahuna with it at this point.

I admit, this Akala arc has even soured my opinion on SM a little bit, both because of how rushed it is and Ash's inevitable DEM victory against Olivia. But there's still plenty of series left, I'm not going to give up on it until it's over.

This is it, isn't it? Like, sure, I love to see him win as much as the next guy, but right now he barely even seems to struggle, let alone lose. They've shoved all his foibles into the comedy at this point which starts to come off as forced. And while Ash hit a big winning streak in the second half of XY, the gym leaders still posed a challenge. One can hope they do that with this, but just because his battle competency is up there doesn't mean we want to see him win all the time so easily, unless they have an intended plot point with that, but I can't see it.

 

[Power Up]

This is it, isn't it? Like, sure, I love to see him win as much as the next guy, but right now he barely even seems to struggle, let alone lose. They've shoved all his foibles into the comedy at this point which starts to come off as forced. And while Ash hit a big winning streak in the second half of XY, the gym leaders still posed a challenge. One can hope they do that with this, but just because his battle competency is up there doesn't mean we want to see him win all the time so easily, unless they have an intended plot point with that, but I can't see it.

Ash not losing much would have worked in a more XY/XYZ type anime with much better trainers and actual arcs/reasons and have that occasional fallible arc like Snowbelle

 

[Golden_Latias]

I said as much a few times, but I'm almost convinced the writers are too chicken to make him lose after the Kalos League.

 

[Akkipeddi]

Unless something happens to redeem the series a little bit in my eyes, I'm just watching for the supporting characters at this point. They're more interesting than Ash for the most part IMO.

I've been watching for the same reason since episode 1 of SM since I knew barring battles, I just wouldn't be able to enjoy Ash this series (and even then battles have been rare and for the most part underwhelming). However, even then, the main focus Lillie has also been quite underwhelming to me personally, and the others characters have also been hit or miss, with only Kiawe and Mallow being fairly enjoyable to me.

Honestly at this point given the lack of much enthusiasm from me, I would stop watching, but unfortunately, I've been watching Pokémon since the begining, so even if I dislike a series, I can't desert the series midway.

 

[Red and Blue]

I wouldn't worry too much about Ash having a perfect win streak. Once he an Gladion meet again he'll get curbstomped by Type Null

 

[Dragalge]

I said as much a few times, but I'm almost convinced the writers are too chicken to make him lose after the Kalos League.

They actually cared about the backlash from the Kalos League?

 

[Epicocity]

I wouldn't worry too much about Ash having a perfect win streak. Once he an Gladion meet again he'll get curbstomped by Type Null

That's not the point Golden_Latias is making though; they're well aware Ash will get stomped by trainers like Gladion, but it seems when he's up against anyone else, like a Kahuna, he literally has no struggle and easily wins, as though they're afraid to show him losing. Now maybe the Kahuna battle tomorrow might have more challenge to it, but that remains to be seen. In either case, the pacing they gave Akala was just plain horrible. Even the Coumarine-Lumiose-Laverre pacing was better, and even I found that just a little rushed, only saved by the fact that Clemont didn't need to be introduced.

In any case, tomorrow will be a better indicator since Tomioka will be writing the battle instead of Matsui.

 

[DatsRight]

This is it, isn't it? Like, sure, I love to see him win as much as the next guy, but right now he barely even seems to struggle, let alone lose. They've shoved all his foibles into the comedy at this point which starts to come off as forced. And while Ash hit a big winning streak in the second half of XY, the gym leaders still posed a challenge. One can hope they do that with this, but just because his battle competency is up there doesn't mean we want to see him win all the time so easily, unless they have an intended plot point with that, but I can't see it.

I don't really get this. Ash's winning streak is arguably larger in an ultimate sense, but I see a lot of cases Ash isn't in full control or his team are taking a beating, just they're clever or persistent enough to find a way to turn it around (and even that often seems improvised). At the very least I see more times than XY had around this point where Ash is panicking and having to think on the fly thus far.

I do think Ash should suffer a major loss some point soon, but thus far I don't think he's invincible, or even if he is, he's working for it.

And besides, he lost to Team Rocket.