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Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
When people say they want a "plot" to start in S&M, I don't quite understand what this criticism is aimed at?

It's Pokemon anime, the "plot" is just a fetch quest of badges/symbols/crystals/whatever stretched out over the course of 140+ episodes with rivalries, Pokemon development and evil crime syndicate story lines mixed in. The only difference is we aren't getting generic COTD episodes in exchange for focus on the classmates and Pokemon, thank goodness.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
When people say they want a "plot" to start in S&M, I don't quite understand what this criticism is aimed at?

It's Pokemon anime, the "plot" is just a fetch quest of badges/symbols/crystals/whatever stretched out over the course of 140+ episodes with rivalries, Pokemon development and evil crime syndicate story lines mixed in. The only difference is we aren't getting generic COTD episodes in exchange for focus on the classmates and Pokemon, thank goodness.
They want him to ditch the school and start traveling. That's all it really means, as far as I can tell.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
When people say they want a "plot" to start in S&M, I don't quite understand what this criticism is aimed at?

It's Pokemon anime, the "plot" is just a fetch quest of badges/symbols/crystals/whatever stretched out over the course of 140+ episodes with rivalries, Pokemon development and evil crime syndicate story lines mixed in. The only difference is we aren't getting generic COTD episodes in exchange for focus on the classmates and Pokemon, thank goodness.

Agreed there really isn't much difference at all and I prefer it this way since cotd episodes are a waste of time imo. I like that the cast are getting more involved in fillers and getting focus in them instead of having them stand around in the background doing almost nothing
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
Agreed there really isn't much difference at all and I prefer it this way since cotd episodes are a waste of time imo. I like that the cast are getting more involved in fillers and getting focus in them instead of having them stand around in the background doing almost nothing
Ehhh, they still kind of stand around in the background and do nothing, especially Mallow and Sophocles.

Soph is getting an episode soon, but Mallow desperately needs another focus episode IMO. One where she's a little bit more active than in SM18. And her Steenee needs a personality, because that thing hasn't done **** since it evolved.
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Ehhh, they still kind of stand around in the background and do nothing, especially Mallow and Sophocles.

Soph is getting an episode soon, but Mallow desperately needs another focus episode IMO. One where she's a little bit more active than in SM18. And her Steenee needs a personality, because that thing hasn't done **** since it evolved.

In a series that focuses way too much in battles (with mixed results anyway), cross your fingers that you can be endearing with an interesting goal.
 

Spyro39

Well-Known Member
When people say they want a "plot" to start in S&M, I don't quite understand what this criticism is aimed at?

It's Pokemon anime, the "plot" is just a fetch quest of badges/symbols/crystals/whatever stretched out over the course of 140+ episodes with rivalries, Pokemon development and evil crime syndicate story lines mixed in. The only difference is we aren't getting generic COTD episodes in exchange for focus on the classmates and Pokemon, thank goodness.

I said this in the Farewell Sophocles thread and I said it here a few posts ago in this page. People are under the impression that the school setting is what's holding back SM from having a "plot" because not much has happened so far outside of the typical captures/character development/buildup/filler episodes while Ash has been in school. We still have no idea when Ash is going to participate in his next trial because he has yet to express interest in it as he's been messing around with his friends in school in Melemele Island. That's why I'm hoping that once Gladion makes his debut, the anime can at least progress its plot in some form. Maybe then it can silence the naysayers who are claiming that ditching the school setting is the best move for SM once they finally get to see some "plot" happening starting with Gladion's debut appearance in SM027.
 
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Blue Saturday

Unfurl your Blessed Wings!
I said this in the Farewell Sophocles thread and I said it here a few posts ago in this page. People are under the impression that the school setting is what's holding back SM from having a "plot" because not much has happened so far outside of the typical captures/character development/buildup/filler episodes while Ash has been in school. We still have no idea when Ash is going to participate in his next trial because he has yet to express interest in it as he's been messing around with his friends in school in Melemele Island. That's why I'm hoping that once Gladion makes his debut, the anime can at least progress its plot in some form. Maybe then it can silence the naysayers who are claiming that ditching the school setting is the best move for SM once they finally get to see some "plot" happening starting with Gladion's debut appearance in SM027.
I dunno, seems pretty nonpointless so far for the first thirty episodes? Rival introduction, team building, companion evolution, new moves, companion character building episodes, Pokemon plotline (Nyabby&Shiron), Rocket captures, crime syndicate episodes, Lillie's issues and family, Shiron's egg and hatching, Tapu Koko, also the gradual buildup to Iwanko and Nyabby joining the team, Pokemon personalities slowly being established (Ashimari, Togedemaru, etc.) They've been rotating through the cast for focus episodes, Mamane-Lillie-Mao-Suiren-Kaki.

A LOT has happened.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
I dunno, seems pretty nonpointless so far for the first thirty episodes? Rival introduction, team building, companion evolution, new moves, companion character building episodes, Pokemon plotline (Nyabby&Shiron), Rocket captures, crime syndicate episodes, Lillie's issues and family, Shiron's egg and hatching, Tapu Koko, also the gradual buildup to Iwanko and Nyabby joining the team, Pokemon personalities slowly being established (Ashimari, Togedemaru, etc.) They've been rotating through the cast for focus episodes, Mamane-Lillie-Mao-Suiren-Kaki.

A LOT has happened.

I don't deny that a lot has happened so far in melemele. However, I feel that that the island has run its course now, and dragging more episodes at melemele beyond this point will make it very boring.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
I dunno, seems pretty nonpointless so far for the first thirty episodes? Rival introduction, team building, companion evolution, new moves, companion character building episodes, Pokemon plotline (Nyabby&Shiron), Rocket captures, crime syndicate episodes, Lillie's issues and family, Shiron's egg and hatching, Tapu Koko, also the gradual buildup to Iwanko and Nyabby joining the team, Pokemon personalities slowly being established (Ashimari, Togedemaru, etc.) They've been rotating through the cast for focus episodes, Mamane-Lillie-Mao-Suiren-Kaki.

A LOT has happened.
And that's all fine and dandy, but what a lot of people want to see is the rest of the Trials, a rival, and more action from the villain teams. As spyro said, in 27 episodes, Ash will only have one Trial and one Grand Trial complete, and he hasn't shown any interest in completing any more Trials. I would consider this the equivalent of having only one Gym Badge, personally, and the only other series where Ash had only one Gym Badge 27 episodes in is DP. And DP had a lot going on, between Ash's rivalry with Paul, Dawn's Contests, Hunter J, and the usual capture and development episodes

While I, for the most part, am enjoying SM so far, I can understand some fans' impatience and desire to see the plot move forward a little bit. I don't necessarily agree that having Ash ditch the school is the best way to do this, however, and I completely agree with spyro that hopefully, the Gladion episode will drive Ash to consider completing the other Trials. My hope is that Gladion will completely curbstomp Ash, and he will realize that he needs to obtain other Z-Crystals to get stronger. Gladion can become a rival for him, and hopefully Team Skull gets a little bit more involved in the plot and act a little bit more competently (I still think it's too early for Aether).
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
When people say they want a "plot" to start in S&M, I don't quite understand what this criticism is aimed at?

It's Pokemon anime, the "plot" is just a fetch quest of badges/symbols/crystals/whatever stretched out over the course of 140+ episodes with rivalries, Pokemon development and evil crime syndicate story lines mixed in. The only difference is we aren't getting generic COTD episodes in exchange for focus on the classmates and Pokemon, thank goodness.

Alola is a big place with of variety of characters and locales, i think melemele has just about run its course
 

Remix2

Well-Known Member
When people say they want a "plot" to start in S&M, I don't quite understand what this criticism is aimed at?

It's Pokemon anime, the "plot" is just a fetch quest of badges/symbols/crystals/whatever stretched out over the course of 140+ episodes with rivalries, Pokemon development and evil crime syndicate story lines mixed in. The only difference is we aren't getting generic COTD episodes in exchange for focus on the classmates and Pokemon, thank goodness.

Except that the character focus episodes we get for the classmate don't give really any development for them and the character who got decent development is Lille.

Plus the fact that most of the episodes we got so far with a few exceptions don't really have anything interesting going on with them and most of the cool stuff is being save for latter.
 
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Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
Alola is a big place with of variety of characters and locales, i think melemele has just about run its course
Meh. I'm fine with Ash traveling as long as his traveling doesn't involve ditching the school entirely. That would be bad writing.

Except that the character focus episodes we get for the classmate don't give really any development for them and the character who got decent development is Lille.
SM05 and 11 gave us backstory for Lana and Kiawe respectively. SM16 showed us Lana is progressing in her goal. SM18 gave us a goal for Mallow. SM19 added to Sophocles's character with him using Ash and Pikachu as guinea pigs (something Clemont never did). And we've got SM26 coming up for Sophocles, as well. They're more set-up than development, granted, but it's not like these episodes aren't giving us anything about the.

Anyway, I've had some thoughts recently about all the characters regarding their development:

- We know Lillie is going to get some interaction with Gladion in SM27. Once that happens, she's fine.

- Kiawe and Lana are kind of in the same boat where focus episodes wouldn't hurt, but they're not needed as long as the writers keep giving them more humorous moments and stuff to do. Kiawe's pretty much already been established as a Large Ham, and he helps Ash with his training often enough, so as long as the writers keep that up, he probably won't need another focus episode until the Akala arc begins (don't really expect him to get anything until then).

Lana has been better in recent episodes. As Mr.Munchlax mentioned in the Character Discussion thread, lately the writers seem to be playing up the Deadpan Snarker side of her personality, and she and Popplio at least got to do something in SM22. Like with Kiawe, as long as the writers keep giving her more funny moments like the post-credit scene in SM23 and that scene with her sisters in SM24, as well as giving her and Popplio chances to shine like in SM22 (just little things like that, nothing major), she's fine without a focus episode for a little while. But since a lot of people seem to find her goal childish and uninteresting, another episode developing her goal a little bit wouldn't hurt.

- Mallow desperately needs another focus episode, one that does for her what SM14 did for Lillie. She needs an episode pretty much all to herself with little involvement from Ash and the other classmates where she gets to be the one to save the day, because she wasn't even very active in her own focus episode. The writers also need to establish a personality for Steenee, because she hasn't done anything since she evolved.

- Sophocles is getting an episode in SM26, but there's still work to be done with him. Like I said in that episode thread, they can start by establishing a goal for him and doing more to distinguish him from Clemont and just go from there (SM19 was a decent start for the latter, but they could still do more). That way, he would actually serve a purpose and not be there just to market Togedemaru. Personally, I think giving him a chance to save the day in a future episode and doing away with the "big eater" trope would also help.
 

johno1995

Well-Known Member
Anyway, I've had some thoughts recently about all the characters regarding their development:

- We know Lillie is going to get some interaction with Gladion in SM27. Once that happens, she's fine.

- Kiawe and Lana are kind of in the same boat where focus episodes wouldn't hurt, but they're not needed as long as the writers keep giving them more humorous moments and stuff to do. Kiawe's pretty much already been established as a Large Ham, and he helps Ash with his training often enough, so as long as the writers keep that up, he probably won't need another focus episode until the Akala arc begins (don't really expect him to get anything until then).

Lana has been better in recent episodes. As Mr.Munchlax mentioned in the Character Discussion thread, lately the writers seem to be playing up the Deadpan Snarker side of her personality, and she and Popplio at least got to do something in SM22. Like with Kiawe, as long as the writers keep giving her more funny moments like the post-credit scene in SM23 and that scene with her sisters in SM24, as well as giving her and Popplio chances to shine like in SM22 (just little things like that, nothing major), she's fine without a focus episode for a little while. But since a lot of people seem to find her goal childish and uninteresting, another episode developing her goal a little bit wouldn't hurt.

- Mallow desperately needs another focus episode, one that does for her what SM14 did for Lillie. She needs an episode pretty much all to herself with little involvement from Ash and the other classmates where she gets to be the one to save the day, because she wasn't even very active in her own focus episode. The writers also need to establish a personality for Steenee, because she hasn't done anything since she evolved.

- Sophocles is getting an episode in SM26, but there's still work to be done with him. Like I said in that episode thread, they can start by establishing a goal for him and doing more to distinguish him from Clemont and just go from there (SM19 was a decent start for the latter, but they could still do more). That way, he would actually serve a purpose and not be there just to market Togedemaru. Personally, I think giving him a chance to save the day in a future episode and doing away with the "big eater" trope would also help.

I really appreciate this commentary on the characters. We've come a long way since the beginning and my thoughts are still optimistic that the writers are building to bigger stories. Here's my take!

- Lillie will have involvement in the Aether Foundation and Team Skull arc, especially now that Gladion is being introduced. She doesn't need any big-time goal development. Her arc is a more personal one; overcoming her fear of touching Pokemon and interacting with her family will give her plenty of material without one. I see her building toward becoming a trainer eventually, but that might be for her send-off, like in the games.

- Kiawe I can see developing into a battling/training rival for Ash, more of a friend than rival but they can butt heads here and there. His fascination with Z-Crystals can give him a lot of screentime as well. His knowledge of the island trials can give him a bit of a "guide" role for Ash to utilize.

- Lana's bubble goal is silly and fun, and I can see her attempting to build a bigger bubble here and there. Perhaps she starts to realize that evolving Popplio would help her reach this goal, and she'd start to work toward training it to be a Primarina. I'd like to see her eventually use Sparkling Aria--it's literally a massive bubble and would be a great way to wrap up that goal at the end, by trapping herself in Primarina's Sparkling Aria attack and exploring the sea. Maybe she'll catch Dewpider, another bubble-themed Pokemon, and have to deal with a Popplio/Dewpider rivalry because Popplio gets jealous? I think a lot of her story will revolve around Popplio in particular, and her personality will just get fleshed out in the meantime.

- Mallow, despite her character being fun and utilized often as a friendly "middleman" and all, has a lot of work to do goal-wise. I can see her entering cooking competitions, as a little side-story a la the sommelier thing that Cilan did. She can catch a few more Pokemon that can help her with the food theme (maybe she can get Pikipek to help her collect berries? A honey collector in Cutiefly and Oricorio?) and assist her in these cooking competitions. The writers can have some fun with it. I agree with developing Steenee further; she really needs it.

- When it comes to Sophocles, I think utilizing Ash as a guinea pig for Soph's experiments should be a recurring theme. Continue to utilize that, I think keeping Ash's awe for science would be a smart continuity move. Perhaps, even if he isn't a trial captain, he can still use a machine to draw in the Totem Vikavolt. Maybe Molayne in the anime canon has a connection to Aether? Maybe Sophocles' inventions draw in the Aether Foundation and they offer him a position? Either way, I can see him using Ash as a guinea pig for experiments for both laughs and also for the sake of discovering more about Z-Moves, Tapu Koko's purpose for Ash and why it "chose him", etc. I agree on moving past the fat jokes/big eater tropes, develop more of his personality. He can catch a Pokemon or two that'll help with his inventions (the Porygon line would be perfect for a programmer character if they decided to get over that whole debacle, but Alolan Geodude would be fine as well).
 

Greneuliest808

Future Graduate
When I first saw the S&M series, I gave it a chance. Since then, I didn't regret it. The new art style has grown on me (although some still liked the old design better). In all seriousness though, we do have some who still don't like his new design (*cough cough* XY and XYZ fanboys *cough cough*). The animations were cool and hilarious too (like the exaggerated expressions and culture references). I also like how Team Rocket is not a punching bag and is competent to Ash.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Regardless of your opinion on Ash and co, you have to admit that TRio benefited greatly, a massive plus from the filler fodder they've been relegated to since the tail end of BW. They are now a threat to Ash and co, actively pursing z-moves, and finally got an evil lair like all good villains.
 

Greneuliest808

Future Graduate
Regardless of your opinion on Ash and co, you have to admit that TRio benefited greatly, a massive plus from the filler fodder they've been relegated to since the tail end of BW. They are now a threat to Ash and co, actively pursing z-moves, and finally got an evil lair like all good villains.

Couldn't have said it any better. Well said.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Regardless of your opinion on Ash and co, you have to admit that TRio benefited greatly, a massive plus from the filler fodder they've been relegated to since the tail end of BW. They are now a threat to Ash and co, actively pursing z-moves, and finally got an evil lair like all good villains.

I'll admit I'm pretty happy with the way TR have been shown and handled so far, being actual threats and having strong pokemon. But, I'm still not particularly happy that they did get a Z crystal. Who knows, maybe as episodes go by, I'll change my mind if they do justice to the Z move, but as of now, I don't see the point of them having a Z crystal.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
Honestly I think the fillers or "pseudo fillers" for SM are more interesting and entertaining than the generic Johto-like cotd/potd/Team Rocket fillers from the past series
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Honestly I think the fillers or "pseudo fillers" for SM are more interesting and entertaining than the generic Johto-like cotd/potd/Team Rocket fillers from the past series

Probably because the format is new, and the characters are known, making some fillers seem less generic. But eventually repeated fillers using even this format will get tiring as well. Take the Sophocles episode 6, even though there were no cotd/potd, it was still a pretty bad filler Imo. Same with the DJ Leo episode.
 
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