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Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Question: How long would you want Ash's Akala island trial challenge to be?

SM009: Trial Totem Gunshoos
SM010: Hala Grand Trial
SM032: Akala trial 1
SM040: Akala trial 2
SM048: Akala trial 3
SM:049: Olivia Grand Trial
SM069: Ula'ula trial 1
SM077: Ula'ula trial 2
SM085: Nanu Grand Trial
SM105: Hapu Grand Trial
SM0113: Poni Island trial
SM121: League
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
Question: How long would you want Ash's Akala island trial challenge to be?
35-ish episodes, I think?

I posted it in another thread, but here's how I would handle it:

SM31 is just an introduction to Olivia and the Akala Trials. He learns about them and returns to Melemele to decide which one he wants to do first. Here, I could definitely see Lana, Kiawe, and Mallow trying to persuade Ash to do the Trials for their respective favored types. Something will happen in that episode that will persuade Ash to make his decision. Episode ends with him telling Olivia which one he wants to do. SM32 is not the Trial episode, but an episode that sort of introduces Brooklet Hill/Wela Volcano/Lush Jungle and maybe shows off a new Pokemon (Dewpider for Brooklet Hill, Alolan Marowak for Wela Volcano, and Fomantis for Lush Jungle) and has Lana/Kiawe/Mallow traveling with him. I could also see this being a potential capture episode for one of the three (or even Ash himself, if he decides on Brooklet Hill first, although I don't think he'll go for this one first). SM33 is the Trial.

Then you have like a 10 or so episode gap between his second and third Trial for other development. Maybe another capture or evolution, maybe something plot relevant like that Ruins of Conflict episode, maybe more focus episodes for Ash's classmates, maybe we'll see Gladion again. Who knows? Third Trial will be SM43-ish and fourth Trial will be SM53-ish. Then there should be a shorter gap (maybe five episodes or so?) between the end of the fourth Trial and the Grand Trial, which would happen close to SM60.

Assuming a 140 episode series, that would leave about 80 or so more episodes for the Ula'Ula and Poni Trials and the AF plot. Which sounds about right.
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
I meant his goal of becoming a Pokemon Master.

The Ash of previous seasons wouldn't have gone to school in the first place. He'd be physically traveling around Alola. Something that probably wouldn't even work, mind you, because A.) Ride Pokemon make traveling unnecessary and B.) There is no League in Alola (yet), so there's no deadline and no need to rush.

And you don't know what Ash is thinking. Maybe the reason he had not inquired about Akala is because he felt he wasn't ready to go take on the Akala Trials yet. He knows they exist, Professor Kukui and Kiawe told him as much. And it's not like we've never once seen him training, either. We saw him training in SM17, SM22, and SM27 (and there had to be some offscreen training for Rockruff to pull off Breakneck Blitz in SM19).[/QUOTE
I don't am asking Ash travel around Alola. I just want him to mention the trial, show that he cares.
But... does it really matter that much? So what if captures or moves are tacked on to make an episode non-filler? This wouldn't be the first time the anime does it, and it won't be the last. It doesn't hurt the quality of the episodes it happens in. Did Ash catching Charjabug for Sophocles make SM26 that much worse? Did Litten mastering Fire Fang in SM22 hurt that episode in any way? Shiron hatching in SM13 lasted all of about 30 seconds. So did Misty catching Psyduck.

I think you don't understand. No one is saying that they get worse, they are still as bad as a normal filler episode. Whenever someone talks about fillers, someone says that SM has few fillers.
That's true, but SM non-fillers are just non-fillers because of a few seconds. No one wants to see a filler-like episode just for a few seconds of important moments.
 

Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
When do you think Ash should graduate from school?
End of the series.
I think you don't understand. No one is saying that they get worse, they are still as bad as a normal filler episode. Whenever someone talks about fillers, someone says that SM has few fillers.
That's true, but SM non-fillers are just non-fillers because of a few seconds. No one wants to see a filler-like episode just for a few seconds of important moments.
And there have been, what? Three episodes like that? SM13, SM22, and SM26. All of the other non-filler episodes focus on what makes them non-filler just fine.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
End of the series.

And there have been, what? Three episodes like that? SM13, SM22, and SM26. All of the other non-filler episodes focus on what makes them non-filler just fine.

Not to mention that if you're accusing SM of this then you would have to accuse the other series for the same thing since they all have alot of episodes like that.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
When do you think Ash should graduate from school?

The sooner the freaking better. I don't have a school fetish, unlike some people.....
I want to see Ash travel around and see islands/locations getting proper coverage. I don't give a Rattata's *** about Melemele. I want episodes on the Battle Royale, the volcano, Grand Hano Resort, Po Town, and all the other interesting locations that Melemele lacks. It's the most boring of all the islands. If they were smart, it'd be Akala where the school was based.
 

Satoshi & Touko

Peanuts aren't just a nut.
I wonder if Festival Plaza will be included in the anime somehow. Or if Lillie will get a design change eventually like she did in the games (and since trainer customization is a thing again).
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
The writers really dug themselves into a hole by having this whole school plot. If you let Ash graduate or leave early, and then he starts travelling as per normal, it'll have made the school pointless. And at the same time, if he's going to continue being in this school till the end of the series, it'll make it very difficult to showcase the other islands properly.

I wonder if Festival Plaza will be included in the anime somehow.

I highly doubt it, but it'll be interesting. Like in the games, maybe Sophocles asks if everyone likes festival plaza and they all say they don't, could be pretty funny.
 
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Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
The sooner the freaking better. I don't have a school fetish, unlike some people.....
I want to see Ash travel around and see islands/locations getting proper coverage. I don't give a Rattata's *** about Melemele. I want episodes on the Battle Royale, the volcano, Grand Hano Resort, Po Town, and all the other interesting locations that Melemele lacks. It's the most boring of all the islands. If they were smart, it'd be Akala where the school was based.
Because he is not capable of visiting those areas while attending school, right?
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
Ride Pokémon makes time consuming travelling obsolete, he can still go to school and explore the other islands.
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
It's established going to Akala is no trouble at all so idk what's the hold up

SM028 and SM029 filler episodes could be better placed...

But then again if ride Pokémon mean travelling takes like less than five minutes per episode, then Ash would be done with the trials in like 80 episodes or less.

Or he keeps losing to show that they aren't typical gym battles and he's having to think outside his comfort zone which would lead to calls of being reset...

I think it's best for my sanity that I try not to over think this tbh
 

nel3

Crimson Dragon
Of course SM can't compare at this point, because SM is only 28 episodes in and is nowhere near reaching its climax, while XY is finished. Comparing the two simply isn't fair for that very reason. And let's be honest: does anyone think XY looked that impressive when it was 28 episodes in?

Also, what is with all the complaints about filler lately? SM only has like seven filler episodes, three of which are tentative and contain events that could make them nonfiller later (like if RotomDex's functions ever come in handy or Ash catches that Wimpod in SM20). That's a 75-25 ratio, which is not much worse than XY's 80-20. Seriously, the way people are complaining about this, you'd think SM was Johtoesque with its fillers...

Granted, quality is subjective. Of the fillers they've shown, I enjoyed SM16 and 28 personally, and most people seem to enjoy those two episodes. The rest (aside from SM06, which is probably the worst episode of the series so far) have been decent, nothing amazing, but nothing terrible, either.

The first 30 episodes of XY aren't that impressive either. Serena was still lacking focus and a goal and there was a bunch of fillers sprinkled throughout that episode range too, some of them also being meh. Also, XYZ didn't happen until two years into XY running its series, so who's to say that SM might not be able to do the same with their two years? Saying that SM can't compare to XYZ is unfair because it's still too early to compare them.

i hardly remember which early XY eps were fillers but i do remember that i had no trouble watching them. sure they were still fillers but their quality beat out anything SM has to offer at this point. its just so hard to watch the fillers SM has to offer but i do hold hope that the series continues to improve. there are some parts of the series i just dont like but there's no way getting around them. ash loafing around doing things and not trying to find some sort of goal does bother me as the plot structure does seem haphazard ATM.
 

doofinc

get rillaboomed
Just as a comparison for events from the first official battle to 17 episodes after (SM 10 is Hala and we are at SM28 right now) to give a more accurate representation of non-filler activity (I go somewhat by my own definition) from the first battle:

XY (06 = Viola Battle): 07 - Bit of backstory for Serena (Amourshipping)
09 - Clemont reclaims his gym, meeting Clembot
10 - Blaziken Mask is revealed to be Clemont's dad
10 - Clemont catches Chespin
11 - Jessie catches Pumpkaboo
17 - Ash meets Sanpei
19 - Gang meets evil Malamar
20 - They meet Grant
21 - First showing of Aria
25 (Last) - Gym battle vs. Grant (skipped XY24 since it was not in rotation at the time; this is about people's current feelings compared to XY at time of airing)

Filler Count: 9/17

SM (10 = Hala Battle): 11 - Meeting Kiawe's family
12 - James catches Mareanie
14 - Lillie catches Shiron
15 - Ash catches Rockruff
18 - Mallow's Bounsweet evolves into Steenee
19 - Ash battles Tapu Koko again
20 - Ash sees Tapu Lele
21 - Stoutland dies
21 - Ash catches Litten
25 - Team Rocket defeat Team Skull and take the Darkinium Z
26 - Sophocles catches Charjabug
27 - Ash meets Gladion
(28 = End)
Filler Count: 6/17

So Sun and Moon have actually had less fillers than XY in this gap, especially with the super filler gap in XY. However, we do see that he does reach the second gym at this point. With theoretically 11 trials (4 being Grand Trials), they could have paced it out a bit better. Having the Gumshoos trial with the Hala Grand Trial right after was a little bit rushed in my opinion; either having him lose the first time or push back the Grand Trial a bit could have made the pacing feel better and less of "nothing's happening", even though there are clearly a bunch of things happening. Use this info for discussion I guess.
 

Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Just as a comparison for events from the first official battle to 17 episodes after (SM 10 is Hala and we are at SM28 right now) to give a more accurate representation of non-filler activity (I go somewhat by my own definition) from the first battle:

XY (06 = Viola Battle): 07 - Bit of backstory for Serena (Amourshipping)
09 - Clemont reclaims his gym, meeting Clembot
10 - Blaziken Mask is revealed to be Clemont's dad
10 - Clemont catches Chespin
11 - Jessie catches Pumpkaboo
17 - Ash meets Sanpei
19 - Gang meets evil Malamar
20 - They meet Grant
21 - First showing of Aria
25 (Last) - Gym battle vs. Grant (skipped XY24 since it was not in rotation at the time; this is about people's current feelings compared to XY at time of airing)

Filler Count: 9/17

SM (10 = Hala Battle): 11 - Meeting Kiawe's family
12 - James catches Mareanie
14 - Lillie catches Shiron
15 - Ash catches Rockruff
18 - Mallow's Bounsweet evolves into Steenee
19 - Ash battles Tapu Koko again
20 - Ash sees Tapu Lele
21 - Stoutland dies
21 - Ash catches Litten
25 - Team Rocket defeat Team Skull and take the Darkinium Z
26 - Sophocles catches Charjabug
27 - Ash meets Gladion
(28 = End)
Filler Count: 6/17

So Sun and Moon have actually had less fillers than XY in this gap, especially with the super filler gap in XY. However, we do see that he does reach the second gym at this point. With theoretically 11 trials (4 being Grand Trials), they could have paced it out a bit better. Having the Gumshoos trial with the Hala Grand Trial right after was a little bit rushed in my opinion; either having him lose the first time or push back the Grand Trial a bit could have made the pacing feel better and less of "nothing's happening", even though there are clearly a bunch of things happening. Use this info for discussion I guess.

Well certain complaints that some people have, including me is that episodes 18, 20, and 26 are almost filler throughout the episode, and suddenly due to a few seconds of an important event happening, it becomes essential, even though those episodes are actually quite boring imo. Furthermore, SM has a lot more to show than XY or any other series had to show since there are 11 equivalent gym battles, the whole AF and TS plot with the Ultra Beast, an arc for Lillie with a possibly of Nebby, etc. So there's also a risk of everything getting rushed.

And about the whole trial and grand trial being rushed, I agree. I feel that he should've gotten the Normalium Z as per normal, lost to Hala due to not being experienced to pull of a Z move, practice, and then beat Hala in the rematch. That would've made the pacing feel better.

Anyway, I'm quite confident that the series will come good again after the whole Akala trials start, and once the plot gets thicker.
 
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Spyro39

Well-Known Member
Giving the pacing that SM has shown us so far and the resources that the writers have to work with, if there's the concern that the rest of the Island Trials, Grand Trials, encounter with Team Skull, the Aether Foundation, the Ultra Beasts, maybe Lillie with Nebby and Gladion with Type: Null, a possible League, and just general character focus and development with Mallow, Kiawe, Lana, and Sophocles, are going to be rushed, do you think SM should last 4 years this time instead of 3 years?

Yes, I know that the length of a series depends on when the next generation of games are going to come out, but I feel that SM needs 4 years to run its series if they're going to keep up with the pacing like this.
 
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Akkipeddi

All set to be a nice guy
Yes I think the series has a lot of material to last for four years, but that's not in the hands of the writers. It all depends when the next games are coming out. For gen 7, the most likely release of SM sequel look to be 2018 since there doesn't seem to be a game this year. As for potential DP remakes, I think it'll be on gen 8 with that whole generation for the switch, probably in 2019. So, I still think this series will last for 3 years only.
 
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Golden_Latias

#SlayQueenSlay
Well certain complaints that some people have, including me is that episodes 18, 20, and 26 are almost filler throughout the episode, and suddenly due to a few seconds of an important event happening, it becomes essential, even though those episodes are actually quite boring imo. Furthermore, SM has a lot more to show than XY or any other series had to show since there are 11 equivalent gym battles, the whole AF and TS plot with the Ultra Beast, an arc for Lillie with a possibly of Nebby, etc. So there's also a risk of everything getting rushed.

And about the whole trial and grand trial being rushed, I agree. I feel that he should've gotten the Normalium Z as per normal, lost to Hala due to not being experienced to pull of a Z move, practice, and then beat Hala in the rematch. That would've made the pacing feel better.

Anyway, I'm quite confident that the series will come good again after the whole Akala trials start, and the plot gets thicker.
This, I actually agree with. I was honestly worried that Ash defeating Hala so quickly would lead to the opposite problem: that the entire series would be rushed, and we'd end up with another DA! situation at the end. While I'm happy that is most likely not going to happen, Ash losing to Hala definitely would have helped with the pacing.

Who knows, though? Maybe it'll get better as the series progresses. As I pointed out earlier, all of Akala could take 35-ish episodes with maybe a Trial once every 10 episodes and other stuff like captures, evolutions, major battles, Gladion, whatever the writers are doing with TR, etc. happening in between them, and we'd still be left with 80 episodes for Ula'Ula, Poni, and the AF arc assuming a 140 episode series like BW and XY. That's not rushing.

And that's one of the benefits of staying in one place. No traveling means no CotD, so CotD fillers are virtually nonexistent. Without having to worry about CotD, the writers can do more episodes centered on Ash's classmates.

i hardly remember which early XY eps were fillers but i do remember that i had no trouble watching them. sure they were still fillers but their quality beat out anything SM has to offer at this point. its just so hard to watch the fillers SM has to offer but i do hold hope that the series continues to improve. there are some parts of the series i just dont like but there's no way getting around them. ash loafing around doing things and not trying to find some sort of goal does bother me as the plot structure does seem haphazard ATM.
That is your opinion. Personally, I think most of the early XY fillers were generic, same-y, and forgettable. I don't remember a single one except for the Espurr one (admittedly one of the few good fillers from early XY) and that Chespin vs. Delphox one (and even then, only because it had Delphox AKA my favorite Kalos Pokemon in it). With SM, the writers are at least attempting to experiment a little more and break away from the tired CotD formula. While there are maybe two SM fillers I enjoy, I at least appreciate that they're trying something different.
 
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