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Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

Rohanator

Well-Known Member
What random stories?Example?Yes in comedy sense, OS is like SM( comedy is priority than anything else) Still comedy in OS somewhat watchable especially when 4kids dubbed it. (That's why I prefer SM dub over SM sub).
Random stories as in the ones that don't have plot relevance but are just based on a random idea. Such as Pokebase or the Charjabug car race. You can tell they put effort into them, both animation and writing wise.

Not every episode should have battles but majority should( like 4 episodes have battles, 1 episode no battles, 3 episodes have battles, 1 no battle).How wouldn't be able to focus on them? Battles are usually 5 minutes long( non-important ones). We have 15 minutes remaining for character development( example).
There has to be some lead up, some REASON for the battle though, you can't just start most episodes off with Ash battling some dude, wrap it up in 5 minutes and then move onto the actual story of the week, what kind of pacing would that be?

No, in first season battling is one of the main hearts.If it wasn't, we would see like 5 minute battle in every 5 episodes. We wouldn't even have a league...
Yeah, ONE of the main hearts, not THE main heart. It's still one of the main hearts of SM, it just happens to get less focus than in most other series. And since the season that started it all was the same (and since it allows for more creative story telling), I think it's more acceptable.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
To be fair I think we've gotten some great use of battling in SM so far, what with the fight club situation with Rockruff, Kiawe adapting Turtonator to Shell Smash and faster more head on tactics, Ash and Pikachu's rivalry with Tapu Koko, Lana and Popplio's creative Bubble-centric style and equipping to Z Moves, and of course the Kanto Gym Leaders returning.

I do agree it could do with some more focus (Kiawe needs to use Marowak already, and Litten and Lycanroc need more under their belt) but I think the series so far is giving valid substance at the pace it has with battling, rather than shoving in as much of it as possible regardless of the quality. As said, I do want the other trainers to adapt and grow their Pokemon, though that doesn't necessarily have to be from battling. If anything it would be neat to try new more creative agendas for them alongside Ash and Kiawe's conventional battling arcs. I like seeing new trades Sophociles has for his Pokemon to try to exploit their Electric typing.
 
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CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Random stories as in the ones that don't have plot relevance but are just based on a random idea. Such as Pokebase or the Charjabug car race. You can tell they put effort into them, both animation and writing wise.

There has to be some lead up, some REASON for the battle though, you can't just start most episodes off with Ash battling some dude, wrap it up in 5 minutes and then move onto the actual story of the week, what kind of pacing would that be?

Yeah, ONE of the main hearts, not THE main heart. It's still one of the main hearts of SM, it just happens to get less focus than in most other series. And since the season that started it all was the same (and since it allows for more creative story telling), I think it's more acceptable.

I never said I want SM episode to start as Ash battling one guy in 5 minutes and winning/losing without any direction at all. What I wanted( since last year) is that they showed us other classmates and those classmates would battle Ash, Kiawe. They would have tournaments in schools and such.

Bold: That's why I am complaining that SM is one of the worst series and really weak.I never said SM has 0 battles. They have battles, but they're reduced to the size where they almost are not important in SM...Whereas battles, comedy(not as important), CD, pace/story are all important at some extent.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
A school tournament would be an interesting idea, I am rather surprised one of the assignments hasn't been such yet actually.

Granted it would be lop sided in that department, especially regarding the signatures (who are most often used for the school activities). Popplio and Turtonator would likely dominate the other three, while Pikachu would probably turn all of them into roadkill.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I admit it might be exacerbated by the fact they interrupted both of Mallow's only limelight episodes thus far, and besides that she's not been allowed to do much at all besides banter. Both her battles were TR curb stomps and seemed largely driven by outside forces (eg. Steenee's DEM evolution, Oranguru's Instruct), while still basic enough to show Mallow wasn't really battling material. They could have focused on something that benefitted her development much more and could have allowed her character to fully drive the plot. Demonstrating Oranguru and evolving Steenee has some plot relevance, but it would have been nice if we'd got at least one episode of some full relevant Mallow development before using it to pitch another character (I'm sure Steenee could have evolved another way that felt like a boost to her and Mallow's strengths for example).
So...you don't consider the rest of the Oranguru episode to be character development for Mallow? Her character may not have progressed, but it was fleshed out, which counts as character development (you know, because her character was developed).

Yes, they're.It's same if you ask: "are battles heart of Dragon Ball?" Yes they're. Main thing in Pokemon is battling other trainers and getting experienced. Also, I never said it's one heart. Pokemon has multiple hearts.Battles are one heart. Travelling is another, characters and Pokemon are third. Reducing one heart is making show worse. Relationship between humans and Pokemon are present in every season. Again, you're implying it was only in SM and Kanto...

Sato, you mean to list all fillers here?
IMO, when it comes to the "hearts" of Pokémon—the elements of the show that matter most—battles are on equal standing with, but certainly not more important than, the relationships between humans and Pokémon. The two are actually intertwined, as a Trainer's success in battle is sometimes determined by his/her relationship with his/her Pokémon. In fact, Ash's relationship with his Pokémon, particularly Pikachu, is one of his defining character traits. So, one can't disregard how important an element that is to the series.

Actually, I was more asking what type of episode you consider filler, because IMO, SM has had surprisingly few filler episodes.

What they benefit? They get stronger, stronger moves, evolve, get experience etc. It's not point that they're overused, point is they're unfunny. Maybe they're funny to little kids, many people here and on YT showed displeasure in SM's comedy. It's on same level as Adam Sandler doing fart and poop jokes( unfunny and at some extent overused).Previous seasons also showed Ash training his Pokemon, you're implying SM is the only one...Ash and Kiawe only have battle agendas, unlike in previous seasons where only Ash only had( AG, DP) and they still had more battles than SM.
Yes, and those little kids are the target audience—not the teenagers and young adults on Serebii or YouTube or Bulbagarden or wherever. The Pokémon anime's primary target audience has always been, and always will be, young children. I think part of the problem is that older fans want a show that appeals more to them, and forget that they are the periphery demographic, not the main target demographic.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
So...you don't consider the rest of the Oranguru episode to be character development for Mallow? Her character may not have progressed, but it was fleshed out, which counts as character development (you know, because her character was developed).

That is so, but the third act in her episodes always gets hijacked however, when that climax can be used to focus on some aspect of her personality or abilities and how she handles a situation more unique than 'incompetent bad guy'. All the others have managed to not only flesh out their character but hold an episode without TR or someone else taking over their story and allowing them to 'turn off'. Hell even some episodes they HAVE been battling an antagonist like TR it got a bit more fleshing out from them (eg. Lillie showing her resourcefulness with Pokemon attacks to outsmart them, and her undying devotion to Snowy in SM14), thus still feeling character driven. In both of Mallow's, TR interrupts and harasses Mallow and then some intervening of some kind occurs that practically defeats them for her (but still takes up the entire third act), thus making them feel more plot driven and formulaic. It could work for A episode but not all of a character's proper limelight episodes.

Mallow's restaurant agenda is probably the most developed goal of all the companions so far this series, and yet it is probably also the least gripping and vibrant in terms of limelight, largely because Mallow isn't given many opportunities to make it shine or do anything unique with it.
 
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Remix2

Well-Known Member
Let be honest by this point mallow chances of getting development came and went and now she nothing more then a background character.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Let be honest by this point mallow chances of getting development came and went and now she nothing more then a background character.

Let's be honest; we're still only 45 episodes into the series, so there is plenty of time left for characters, including Mallow, to get more character development.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
It's not looking great for Mallow so far though. Even overlooking her two episodes (and the fact there's only two) she's been pretty inactive as a supporting character as well. Her only big step is evolving Steenee, who still does barely anything compared to the other signatures and again was a DEM with zero build up or experience.

The Akala trial episode having Olivia pick her as an ally to observe but do nothing almost seemed like meta awareness of how little she does.
 
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Remix2

Well-Known Member
Let's be honest; we're still only 45 episodes into the series, so there is plenty of time left for characters, including Mallow, to get more character development.

I'm not confident on that given that she only have two episode and the only thing We learn form her in them is that she cooks.
 
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Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
Let's be honest; we're still only 45 episodes into the series, so there is plenty of time left for characters, including Mallow, to get more character development.

Hahaha. No.
Akala Island is over apart from the Fire Trial, Ultra Grass Totem is still Lurantis, there's not much for the poor girl to due. Mostly because of the utter garbage of a goal they gave her. They seem way more favorable of the starter owner and Lillie, don't bother denying it. I wouldn't be surprised if Steenee was her only team change... and I say Steene, not Tsareena
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I'm not confident on that given that she only have two episode and the only thing Wr learn form her in them is that she cooks.
She does more than cook. She has a goal—to make Aina Cafeteria the number one restaurant in Alola. That goal was the basis of her search for the nectar to make Alola stew in SM18. We learned that she wants her hard work to be acknowledged and appreciated; that was basis of the entire conflict in SM39, as her feeling like her father didn't acknowledge or appreciate her work (and was making her do all of the work) was the reason she ran away in the first place.

Even in episodes where she hasn't been the focus character, we have learned more about her. We have learned that she is a bit nosy and worries and cares about her friends' well-being—as shown when she dragged Ash with her to follow Lillie in SM14, and when she went out of her way to check on Lillie and the egg in SM08.

Hahaha. No.
Akala Island is over apart from the Fire Trial, Ultra Grass Totem is still Lurantis, there's not much for the poor girl to due. Mostly because of the utter garbage of a goal they gave her. They seem way more favorable of the starter owner and Lillie, don't bother denying it. I wouldn't be surprised if Steenee was her only team change... and I say Steene, not Tsareena
Akala Island being over (and we don't know if the anime is actually done with Akala Island; after all, there is nothing stopping Ash from returning there for another visit in another episode) has nothing to do with Mallow's character development from here on out. Why are people so ready to write off Mallow's development when we're only 45 episodes into what will probably be a 140+ episode series? There are still plenty of chances for Mallow, and Steenee, to get more development.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
While Mallow has a decent personality and her goal has as much potential as the others, it's not fusing or coming to life like the others right now. Sure some of them aren't getting great limelight right now, but they feel more driven by their own character than Mallow and like they're getting more substance in terms of letting their Pokemon and their potential as trainers shine. For Mallow you can sort of see where they're going with her, but they're not expanding it or making it all that entertaining.

Mallow wanting appreciation for her hard work would be more investing if they added some substance and charm to what her hard work is. They can make stuff like baseball and kart racing revolved around Pokemon in some entertaining way, why not owning a restaurant?
 
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Jeal

Well-Known Member
Because the anime uses TR and other COTD non stop for jobber purposes, while excusing their incompetence to make said battles one sided in a very bland, and un-innovative way. There's no point in spamming jobbers if the character in question doesn't look remotely more competent or entertaining being put against them....constantly. People still thought Serena and Mallow were weak and boring battlers despite being relegated to curb stomp a jobber's *** in all their episodes. They may as well have let them do something more befitting their personality. Forcing in battles didn't work for them, hence downplaying battles can be good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suBqCogNqZk
An example of the incompetence of the team rocket. They did not put Serena against them because they wanted her to seem more competent, that's stupid. If they wanted to, they would make her battle against other opponents more often. The only reason she faced them is because they were enemies, that's all.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
I can bet that OS still had more battle than SM.Also OS's comedy is better than SM's. OS is basically slapstick combined with sitcom humor(Ash roasting Misty). SM is just "funny" faces.At the end of all this; you're saying this like it's a good thing. Many people( including me) here think that Kanto + OI( and even Johto at some stretch) are worse than BW and BW considered at AU by many( I like BW BTW)( shows how bad that series was).

They are more than just funny faces. Yes, funny faces are used a lot, but there's comedic substance behind it. Most of us are adults now, so some of the humor may not be as funny anymore compared to if we were children watching now.

It seems dull and empty without battles. It's like taking main key factor and throwing it away.

If OS is any indication, it's not simply battles but the interactions between characters and Pokemon, and overall world-building. It's fair to prefer series like XY in terms of greater focus on battling, but I wouldn't mis-characterize SM either.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
While Mallow has a decent personality and her goal has as much potential as the others, it's not fusing or coming to life like the others right now. Sure some of them aren't getting great limelight right now, but they feel more driven by their own character than Mallow and like they're getting more substance in terms of letting their Pokemon and their potential as trainers shine. For Mallow you can sort of see where they're going with her, but they're not expanding it or making it all that entertaining.

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if Mao would be better off leaving the cast. She's one of my favorite characters in the SM saga, but even I'm finding her to be somewhat redundant in the current arc. Suiren has a Z-Ring so she's all set to receive screen-time as a marketing tool, and of course Lilie has the Aether Foundation storyarc, but Mao has nothing that makes her stand-out.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
To be fair I think we've gotten some great use of battling in SM so far, what with the fight club situation with Rockruff, Kiawe adapting Turtonator to Shell Smash and faster more head on tactics, Ash and Pikachu's rivalry with Tapu Koko, Lana and Popplio's creative Bubble-centric style and equipping to Z Moves, and of course the Kanto Gym Leaders returning.
Those are all great ( except Lana's Bubble stuff( Not too fond of it), still my point was: lack of battles( numbers).

I do want the other trainers to adapt and grow their Pokemon, though that doesn't necessarily have to be from battling.
Battling is one way. Other way is training( no battles; doing pushups, situps similair to that one time when Oshawott did those against Blitzle). There is no other way to grow your Pokemon to be stronger, faster etc. Unless you mean character and Pokemon relationship to grow.. that's another story.

IMO, when it comes to the "hearts" of Pokémon—the elements of the show that matter most—battles are on equal standing with, but certainly not more important than, the relationships between humans and Pokémon.
That's what I was saying... the balance.Like 5-6 minutes of battling, rest of it Litten development with Ash, Litten's development through "training" or "battle" etc.

Actually, I was more asking what type of episode you consider filler, because IMO, SM has had surprisingly few filler episodes.
Imperfect( meaning I didn't go in depth of this) 15-ish fillers in around 45 episodes is really small number.I think there are less than 15, but around 10.For example SM06 is for me a filler.

If OS is any indication, it's not simply battles but the interactions between characters and Pokemon, and overall world-building. It's fair to prefer series like XY in terms of greater focus on battling, but I wouldn't mis-characterize SM either.

I don't mis-charaterize SM. I think it's pretty ok/passable series( in dub) so far with Cosmog arc coming up probably making it better and better.
And I prefer, AG,BW,DP and XY because of good amount of battles,character development, Pokemon and human interactions and world-building. ( maybe except XY it has less world-building and more battles).
 

(P.O.K.E.M.O.N)

AshXSerena = Canon
My initial impressions of Sun and Moon were quite mixed, which is to say that the animation style fended me off whilst the episodes themselves were actually quite good. I haven't been able to catch up with the anime lately, but my conjecture of the Sun and Moon anime as far is still decidedly above XY. Then again, nothing will ever come close to Diamond and Pearl for me. Anyways, i am definitely a fan of the strong focus of characterization in this series. Something that was extremely lacking in the previous series.
 

Nafsika

Well-Known Member
Actually my opinion about SM is from the very begging the same!!! When I heard the news for the new series I was really excited!!! I was a little surprised by the animation changes but nothing to drive me away!!! It's a really good series with a lot of humor!!! I think that it has a strong plot and I'm glad that the bond between the main protagonists is strong!!! My only concern is the big group of people and pokemon and how that will affect everyone`s screen time!!! I really hope that everybody in the sanga`s end will have get the development they deserve!!!!
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
One nice detail I've slowly noticed about SM is that there are a lot more points they've thought through how the plot can span out and make sense, even in terms of basic formula elements in the anime.

Take the Team Rocket/Skull or Totem battles for example. A lot of the time you wonder why the twerps don't just bring out all their Pokemon to just deal with antagonists easily. Here due to the home base format, the twerps are often separated and sometimes even leave their other Pokemon at home besides their signature. The most recent episode Ash left Litten and Lycanroc to guard the house and Rowlet got left at school for example, so it made sense it was brought down to just him and Pikachu vs the TRio.

Rotomdex of course is a living Pokedex and a bit of motor mouth (and actively searches for new data to learn), so he can spout exposition about the Pokemon without Ash even asking for it and looking like he's forgotten info he already knows.

The Z Moves, while maybe a bit basic a power up, also feel well utilised and not just spammed whenever a character is on the ropes like a generic anime gimmick. There's emphasis on the fact they have to be well timed since they exhaust the Pokemon, most of the time they are used it is in desperation or when the opponent is distracted or left an opening, and if they fail to hit or otherwise don't end the battle, the using Pokemon doesn't tend to last very long. Compared to Mega Evolution, which after being mastered are practically just a super sayian form, this gives the Z Moves a bit more tension in use and a reason not to be used excessively, it's a do or die strategy.
 
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