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Sun & Moon, your thoughts now vs first thoughts

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
This is my cynicism talking, but many people only watch for the battles. Let's be honest, it's hard to get emotionally invested in someone like Ash rather than the pretty colors.
Perhaps for some people, it's hard to get emotionally invested in Ash, but to be honest, Ash is one of the main reasons I watch the anime. I'm interested in his journey—the adventures he has, the friends he meets, the Pokémon he catches. Of course, the battles are also appealing and entertaining, but that's not the main draw for me. Ash, along with the other characters, is what keeps me coming back to the anime.
 

Rajas

Well-Known Member
Some Z moves look really stunning, I'm excited to see 10 000 000 volt thunderbolt and I hope Rowlett fully evolves as I want to see Sinister Arrow Raid in the anime so badly. Also Lycanroc's special Z Move will most likely look amazing.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Perhaps for some people, it's hard to get emotionally invested in Ash, but to be honest, Ash is one of the main reasons I watch the anime. I'm interested in his journey—the adventures he has, the friends he meets, the Pokémon he catches. Of course, the battles are also appealing and entertaining, but that's not the main draw for me. Ash, along with the other characters, is what keeps me coming back to the anime.

I would say it's hard to be invested in previous series, since Ash was sometimes rather vanilla and the dynamic arc of his character (entering the league) was mandated to fail and be repeated over and over, bringing apathy and annoyance at them trying to tease it as a climax to his character the next series. XY was ridiculous in this regard, barely giving Ash a personality at all in favour of 'click bait' and hype over the league. Oh, yeah, it's DEFINITELY gonna happen this time.

SM however is cleverly keeping that a clear secondary focus in favour of his actual personality and adventures. He's a more episodic protagonist now, but he gets more focus on his actual quirks and foibles and how they affect the plot because of it. Sure it's 'silly antics' like a standard Saturday Morning cartoon, but Ash at least now has all the charm of a Saturday Morning cartoon hero. I can watch a filler just about Ash and Pikachu and think it's great.

I will agree though that SM maybe loses out on potential given for once he has a different main aim this series, learning through the school, which still could provide in episodic lessons and challenges for Ash. But the downside is so few episodes have focused on meaningful studies for the class (the switch episode is almost the only decent example, though I suppose many were happy when Ash was forced into a field trip back home). Kukui and Kiawe do teach Ash the ropes, but they could easily have been standard mentors with another more standard 'home base' premise.
 
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p96822

Evolve me please
I would say it's hard to be invested in previous series, since Ash was sometimes rather vanilla and the dynamic arc of his character (entering the league) was mandated to fail and be repeated over and over, bringing apathy and annoyance at them trying to tease it as a climax to his character the next series. XY was ridiculous in this regard, barely giving Ash a personality at all in favour of 'click bait' and hype over the league. Oh, yeah, it's DEFINITELY gonna happen this time.

SM however is cleverly keeping that a clear secondary focus in favour of his actual personality and adventures. He's a more episodic protagonist now, but he gets more focus on his actual quirks and foibles and how they affect the plot because of it. Sure it's 'silly antics' like a standard Saturday Morning cartoon, but Ash at least now has all the charm of a Saturday Morning cartoon hero. I can watch a filler just about Ash and Pikachu and think it's great.

I will agree though that SM maybe loses out on potential given for once he has a different main aim this series, learning through the school, which still could provide in episodic lessons and challenges for Ash. But the downside is so few episodes have focused on meaningful studies for the class (the switch episode is almost the only decent example, though I suppose many were happy when Ash was forced into a field trip back home). Kukui and Kiawe do teach Ash the ropes, but they could easily have been standard mentors with another more standard 'home base' premise.

I kinda disagree with you on this. Because I think Ash is too flanderizated in this season. I don't find the relationships with the characters with the Sun and Moon Cast that deep or meaningful to the series like Pokemon X&Y did with it cast. This dymanic part of Ash's character is just that extended version of that X&y episode where explains how evolution works or his explaition for Ash-Greninja. I rather not have Ash be the butt mankey of the series and have that be with Team Rocket or someone who is comic relied like Rowet I don't feel like this version of Ash doesn't has the same dept to him as Pokemon X&Y had. But I respeted your decide of calling this the best version of Ash. For me and alot of people think that Ash should have dieled the Expression down
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I kinda disagree with you on this. Because I think Ash is too flanderizated in this season. I don't find the relationships with the characters with the Sun and Moon Cast that deep or meaningful to the series like Pokemon X&Y did with it cast. This dymanic part of Ash's character is just that extended version of that X&y episode where explains how evolution works or his explaition for Ash-Greninja. I rather not have Ash be the butt mankey of the series and have that be with Team Rocket or someone who is comic relied like Rowet I don't feel like this version of Ash doesn't has the same dept to him as Pokemon X&Y had. But I respeted your decide of calling this the best version of Ash. For me and alot of people think that Ash should have dieled the Expression down

Similarly I can see where you come from, though truthfully I think SM Ash is no more flanderized than he was in XY, maybe less so. Flanderization isn't just making a character goofier, it's simplifying a character to certain defining traits.

XY Ash was still simplified, but more to his 'winner' qualities than his butt monkey ones, being suave and heroic the majority of the time, just because it was a positive trait doesn't mean it's flanderization any less. I do understand why some like XY Ash because him gaining such prowess feels cathartic to his development (that was overlooked in BW) but I feel they went too far and made him a bit bland, and the relationship with the XY lot I found even less depthful because of it.

Besides that I think SM Ash still regularly conveys a lot of XY Ash's best strengths. He can be equally insightful and badass when the time requires it, almost every episode in fact, just it's more a 'Let's Get Dangerous' transition, with him being more dizzy and buffoonish off the clock but knowing when to get serious. The animation is a bit overdone (though I'm used to deranged anime/animation so I suppose it's less effective on me) and his butt monkey qualities are sometimes exaggerated, though more in early episodes where he usually suffered more over everyone else, later on the limelight and slapstick is more indiscriminate. I kind of prefer this setup with everyone having strong and buffoonish qualities, it makes them feel fully dimensioned in spite of the cartoonish output (or sometimes because of it), while previous series like DP and XY maybe tried to make too much separation in super serious and dignified characters vs incompetent comic relief ones, which I thought made for blander characterisation.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I'm not a fan of there being battles almost every episode. A good thing about SM not having as much battles is that it's well worth the wait. I'd take quality over quantity. I couldn't watch Pokémon for the battles earlier simply because they weren't very entertaining, especially if it's some simple dodge & attack strategy. It wasn't until DP came along that I could get more invested in the battles because of the serious circumstances behind it (outside of Gym battles). Though you'll have to also be into the characters and adventures to get invested in the battles. ;)

There's more to animation than just making it look flashy. I'm not a fan of the overly glossed, almost shiny look on the characters but I like that it suited the art style, just like the simple, more silly design suit SM. I like that SM made it easier to hide the stock animation. I remember back in the BW days where there were complaints about the stock animation and how excessive it was. I enjoy the subtle details they put in the characters. They always surprise me and really adds character to them like Pikachu rolling around on the floor once everyone cleaned the living area.

I also got a big shock looking at older episodes and how far (in a good way) Pokémon went in the story and animation department. By the way, Ash has always been a buttmonkey!
 
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BlueDragonfangirl

Well-Known Member
Similarly I can see where you come from, though truthfully I think SM Ash is no more flanderized than he was in XY, maybe less so. Flanderization isn't just making a character goofier, it's simplifying a character to certain defining traits.

XY Ash was still simplified, but more to his 'winner' qualities than his butt monkey ones, being suave and heroic the majority of the time, just because it was a positive trait doesn't mean it's flanderization any less. I do understand why some like XY Ash because him gaining such prowess feels cathartic to his development (that was overlooked in BW) but I feel they went too far and made him a bit bland, and the relationship with the XY lot I found even less depthful because of it.

Besides that I think SM Ash still regularly conveys a lot of XY Ash's best strengths. He can be equally insightful and badass when the time requires it, almost every episode in fact, just it's more a 'Let's Get Dangerous' transition, with him being more dizzy and buffoonish off the clock but knowing when to get serious. The animation is a bit overdone (though I'm used to deranged anime/animation so I suppose it's less effective on me) and his butt monkey qualities are sometimes exaggerated, though more in early episodes where he usually suffered more over everyone else, later on the limelight and slapstick is more indiscriminate. I kind of prefer this setup with everyone having strong and buffoonish qualities, it makes them feel fully dimensioned in spite of the cartoonish output (or sometimes because of it), while previous series like DP and XY maybe tried to make too much separation in super serious and dignified characters vs incompetent comic relief ones, which I thought made for blander characterisation.

I like him better the hero than butt monkey status, it's painful as an Ash fan to watch this kind of stuff happen to him, all these years climbing up the latter for this to happen him? Kanto was hard to watch but as he improved over the course of the series in my opinion you just want him treated with more respect, saves the world counter less times and gets higher and higher in leagues, what?! Ash is my favorite character, over the series you root for him to win and become the Pokemon Master due to all his hard work, that's why I do like moments when he gets emotional over his loses like he did in XY and D/P series you really see a lot of that.

Any ways, Rainbow Rocket? LOL Hard to take these villains seriousXD

Edit;

I don't remember much in D/P and XY, everyone treated him with respect, in the group and friends they had in both. Only one in D/P series that did was Paul but that was to set up there rivalry which in my opinion was the best rivalry in the series.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I like him better the hero than butt monkey status, it's painful as an Ash fan to watch this kind of stuff happen to him, all these years climbing up the latter for this to happen him? Kanto was hard to watch but as he improved over the course of the series in my opinion you just want him treated with more respect, saves the world counter less times and gets higher and higher in leagues, what?! Ash is my favorite character, over the series you root for him to win and become the Pokemon Master due to all his hard work, that's why I do like moments when he gets emotional over his loses like he did in XY and D/P series you really see a lot of that.

Any ways, Rainbow Rocket? LOL Hard to take these villains seriousXD

The thing is though, this is different from BW where he was totally reset, this Ash still has all the same prowess and wits about him that XY Ash has, just outside of that, he's still his usual bumbling self.

Part of the reason I root for him in SM is because of this, he's easy to underestimate and does have a hard time sometimes, but beneath it all he still almost always proves his worth. It's hardly like he's a laughing stock in Alola anyway, just the other students know he's far from perfect, which is a pretty realistic chemistry.

I'm hoping the TRio get in on Rainbow Rocket, it sounds like something they could make a true show out of.
 

dp045

Well-Known Member
It is obvious that Ash is reset and I do not speak for maintaining knowledge or not about the battles (that's another, he was never a good strategist NEVER) but for his personality and characteristics. That is, from Best Wishes to XY the change was very abrupt and again happened from XY to SM, there is no consistency, Ash is very infantilized and the most superficial thing is that "he is good at battles". Bad argument
Battles are an important part and have been neglected is a negative aspect, in addition to making the anime more boring because the other aspect in which you want to focus the series now is in humor which fails.

In short, it is not worth seeing the series as it is and it is not likely that there will be significant changes with the UltraSM and the Aether arc that occurs at this time. If in the last three generations do not handle well the villainous teams and the seriuos part of the bow, why right now will it be different? In addition to the fact that the whole cast of SM is bad, the random characters were replaced with the non-captains and Lillie, they are worse than Serena because they have no objective and an at least interesting background (this excludes Lillie).

In summary the main problem of the anime is to maintain a continuity (a crude attempt) and, therefore, keep Ash as a protagonist.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
But SM Ash has lots of moments besides battling where he is intelligent or competent. See his treatment of his Pokemon. He was unwilling to capture Rowlet or Litten at first because they had a family (has anyone else even considered that implication in the show?) while in Rockruff's fight clubbing episode he had to forced not to intervene, much like he did in XY with Goomy's fight with Florges. His training forms are eccentric but still effective, if anything this Ash relies far less on DEMs to boost his Pokemon and more his own raising. He has came in for the others as well, he helped Kiawe boost Turtonator when he was broken from losing to Marowak (proving he has the same motivational aspects as his XY form), assisted in Lana collecting Waterium Z, he's outright rescued Lillie a couple of times, and also helped the other two with some episodic agendas.

He has things he sucks at, but that's always been the case (even XY Ash was a pitiful dancer) just most of these things haven't been in spotlight in previous series due to the different premise. Other stuff like the goofier animation is just indiscriminate stuff, the other students have plenty of wacky moments too (especially in later episodes) when Brock and Misty returned they were goofier in handling as well.

Best Wishes if anything got a similar compromise by the end since he had regained some of his competence but retained some of his goofiness. In that case it was XY that was the odd one out by overplaying his competent aspects and making him too serious and reserved, otherwise SM would only be a mild flanderization of BW Ash.
 
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dp045

Well-Known Member
> Ash
> Good strategies

Plot armor, DEM, tactics taken from the manga that never repeated themselves have always been abused. Ash's combat strategies are now summed up to hold up to hitting with the Move-Z. The battles are boring strategically and are enjoyed more as entertainment with lights and others. Outside of that, it's still a bad character badly handled with reset and everything.
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
This is my cynicism talking, but many people only watch for the battles. Let's be honest, it's hard to get emotionally invested in someone like Ash rather than the pretty colors.

I'm surprised you wasted your time this far. Ash has been here for a while now. As far as Ash is now, his personality meshes well with this more east going animation style. I wouldn't want XY Ash in SM if there is barely anything for him to really be doing.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Since the Ultra Beast plot is thickening, it makes me wonder when is Ash going back to his Trials. I hope the gang goes back to Akala Island and Team Rocket gets a Z Ring. If TR's getting involved, they better strap up to make themselves useful.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Since the Ultra Beast plot is thickening, it makes me wonder when is Ash going back to his Trials. I hope the gang goes back to Akala Island and Team Rocket gets a Z Ring. If TR's getting involved, they better strap up to make themselves useful.

I'd love if the Rainbow Rocket plot led to the TRio actually level grinding this series round instead of just slowly becoming more obsolete. Everything is hinting to them having the potential for a powerful team this series, though that's always been the case and see how that always happened.
 

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
I'd love if the Rainbow Rocket plot led to the TRio actually level grinding this series round instead of just slowly becoming more obsolete. Everything is hinting to them having the potential for a powerful team this series, though that's always been the case and see how that always happened.

Yes but the difference here is that there pokemon this time around are a lot stronger then some of their previous pokemon for instance take Mimikyu, so far Ash's Pikachu has yet to beat Jessie's Mimikyu in a 1vs1 battles and in most of their battles Mimikyu winds up getting the edge over Pikachu but then something else intervenes in the battle. Also don't forget about Bewear even if they don't catch it would protect them from Ultra Beast and other stuff. Also Wobbuffet if used right is actually pretty strong and has helped them out of situations before, now Meowth this time seems to be a little more active in the battles but so far it hasn't gotten any power boast.

Sure Mareanie seems to be following behind but for all we know it could wind up evolving into a Toxapex which could get give it one heck of a power boost. So I think in actually it's that Team Rocket is a threat this time and you can't just underestimate them likely you usually do.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Yes but the difference here is that there pokemon this time around are a lot stronger then some of their previous pokemon for instance take Mimikyu, so far Ash's Pikachu has yet to beat Jessie's Mimikyu in a 1vs1 battles and in most of their battles Mimikyu winds up getting the edge over Pikachu but then something else intervenes in the battle. Also don't forget about Bewear even if they don't catch it would protect them from Ultra Beast and other stuff. Also Wobbuffet if used right is actually pretty strong and has helped them out of situations before, now Meowth this time seems to be a little more active in the battles but so far it hasn't gotten any power boast.

Sure Mareanie seems to be following behind but for all we know it could wind up evolving into a Toxapex which could get give it one heck of a power boost. So I think in actually it's that Team Rocket is a threat this time and you can't just underestimate them likely you usually do.

I kinda hope that the reason most TR face offs have been underwhelming this series so far besides their one defeat over Ash might be because they actually plan to do it reverse way this time, as in have their lame outmatched battles at the start and then have them become more powerful and form more tightly knit plans as things go along. Jessie is working on Mimikyu, Bewear is hinting to getting caught, they have a Z Crystal but no Z Ring, their plans have gotten a bit more sly, even Meowth seems to have slightly better reflexes than before (Steenee had problems smacking him down like first time round). It could all just be a fluke and nothing will come out of it (they've always been as strong as the plot demanded after all), but it's nice to dream they might care about the TRio more than as a jobber/plot device this series round.

Of course TR's biggest adversary more than the twerps is plot armour. They could be the most powerful battlers in the world and still lose pathetically each and every time due to contrived luck.
 
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Henry's Journey

Well-Known Member
In the beginning I was a little worried they were going to reset Ash a la BW style but I was pleasantly surprised he still got skills, the season is mostly SoL, fun comedy but with battles here and there and moments of seriousness, makes for a great mix, I'm enjoying it. :)

I liked the first 41 episodes (better than BW and XY first 40 eps which were just OK imo) but since the return to Kanto + Aether foundation plot I'm more hyped than ever, it's quickly becoming my favorite season/arc after OS (Kanto+OI+Johto), AG (Hoenn+BF) and DP which remain superior to me.
 

Johtohfiller

Well-Known Member
Bloom Doom was pretty good, though, you have to admit. That said, all of the animation potential in battles has largely been focused on Z-Moves, since SM brought a return of a lot of battle commentary to cut away from the action that XY had dropped, and Z-Moves tend to be the focal point over most other strategies, especially in the Hala battle. Otherwise, they've mostly seemed simplistic except for maybe Rockruff climbing the Probopass heads. But yeah, other than those battles, most animation seems to be put into making the characters overly expressive, but when it's turned towards something as subjective as their style of humor, it can easily come off as not being good animation to the viewer who doesn't care for what said animation is being put towards.

Yep, that about sums it up for me. Not a fan of Z-moves - I don't like them that much in the game either. Big fancy stock footage finishing moves aren't something Pokemon needs IMO.
 

EspNeon

Badge Collector
To be honest, I thought this series would be trash. I couldn't picture how Ash and is peers going to school would fit into the trials. Especially since each trial is on different islands. I even had my doubts about Lillie and how she would develop with the Aether Foundation plot.

But in all fairness, barring Rotom and it's annoying quips, I actually enjoy the series. Each character has their own distinctive personality, the trials aren't solely limited to Ash and they link fluently into the concept of the series being based around school.
 

Rajas

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if this belongs here exactly but I suppose someone could answer this for me or at least tell me if they feel similarly:-
The anime feels bare when it comes to trials imo especially only needing to do one to face each Kahuna. I'm also genuinely confused by the use of Z-Rings as Tapu Koko gave Ash one with his blessing but it disintegrated. Ash was then told he had to beat a Kahuna to be considered worthy to hold it's power.
Then how come Lana didn't have to beat Olivia to use hers?
Is a Kahuna's blessing all you need?
Also didn't Hala state that getting a Z crystal from a Totem Pokemon wasn't heard of when Ash got his Normalium Z? We then go from that to Lana getting one from a Totem Pokemon also so is she special as well or was that just used as an excuse to give her the Water Z crystal?
 
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