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Sun Team Needs lots of Help!

Discussion in 'Older Gen RMT' started by Shiny_Milotic, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Hi all, thanks for clicking through. This is one of my first competitive teams and has undergone a number of adjustments already. I'll explain more below. Happy reading!

    At a Glance:
    ;038; ;003; ;149; ;051; ;232; ;484;

    The Team:

    ;038;Ninetales @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - Roar
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flamethrower

    Unlike most people, I don't really see Ninetales as disposable and useless except for the permanent Sun, and this moveset helps me accomplish that. I don't always start with Ninetales because it is kind of predictable.

    I use Sunny Day on Ninetales solely to win weather wars, and it works great. I previously ran Solarbeam over Roar and had Offensive EVs. Roar does work well for phazing and dealing with substitute-users who can't be WoW'd.

    Many opponents will swap in Politoed and then go for the Scald/HydroPump, but then I outspeed him and use Sunny Day or predict the switch originally and then switch out to a counter. Even a HydroPump with Sun brings me low enough to switch out. Sometimes I just go for the WoW on Politoed or hope for a switch, and then back away. Scald makes me laugh in the sun. Against Hippowdon/Tyranitar I usually switch out or WoW.

    I'm tempted to switch back to using SolarBeam and maybe even Hidden Power Ice (or other) over Will-o-Wisp. The accuracy on WoW is terrible but when it hits it really does help against some physical sweepers (mainly Dragons) who either 1 or 2HKO me.

    I am tempted to use Flamethrower for accuracy and consistency, but I could be convinced to test Overheat...

    ;149;Dragonite @ Choice Band
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Superpower
    - Fire Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Previously used a DragonDance set here, but I'm happier with the CB variant. I could be convinced to sub Outrage for Dragon Claw. Usually Outrage forces me to wait until endgame to bring out the STAB, which is a little tough, unless I want to attack through Steel-types like Forretress and Heatran. With full HP I'd usually survive anyway. I previously used a Bulky variant, but it lacked power. Very content with this Pokemon.

    Superpower is there for Tyranitar, Blissey, Terrakion, and Balloon Heatran, among others. I could be convinced to switch it to Earthquake, but I just felt that it was not as useful since I have other users.

    FirePunch in the filler slot provides nice and sometimes-unexpected coverage. FirePunch is super useful against Forretress and Skarmory, and is also just plain powerful in the sun against anything that doesn't resist it.

    ;003;Venusaur @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 180 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Growth
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb provide great STAB. Venusaur isn't bad at taking a good hit here and there, and can 2HKO a great deal of dragons and fire types. This is where the speed boost obviously helps. If I predict a switch into Infernape for example, I'd use Sludge Bomb and then outspeed him for the 2HKO, taking a priority move when necessary. The poison effect is also great and I love it. Giga Drain is mostly for bulky waters and ground types who otherwise might wall this set. At least I'd get to absorb some HP!

    Hidden Power Fire is probably my favorite move on this set. It's great when predicting switches to Ferrothorn or other Steel-types that think they can wall. Very useful.

    I used to use Sunny Day over Growth in order to win weather wars (which worked GREAT). But I decided that I don't need to win the weather war to kill Politoed, and then just stuck Sunny Day on Heatran.

    ;484;Heatran @ Air Balloon
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Magma Storm
    - Sunny Day
    - SolarBeam
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Heatran's an interesting one. Definitely great at taking advantage of the sun and has enough SAtk to tear through teams. SolarBeam used to be Stealth Rock before my Spinner/Trapper were able to function in that way.

    I love Magma Storm, it's a great move. Sometimes I don't even bother using the "Weather Trap" technique. But I usually can get a Sunny Day off when the team needs it most, which is important. Before using Sunny Day many opponents predict a more standard Heatran and may switch in something weak to SolarBeam.

    I did try both Life Orb and Leftovers; I enjoyed both for different reasons. I ultimately went with Air Balloon to help just a little bit more with switching into Earthquakes, mostly from Hippowdon or Mamoswine, both of whom I have some difficulty with.

    ;051;Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Reversal
    - Sucker Punch
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge

    I was a little bit resistant to devoting a spot on the team to Dugtrio, but now I see why people make such a big stink about him on Sun Teams. He's great for trapping and killing Heatran, Tyranitar, Blissey, and others. Reversal is great and Sucker Punch is there just as filler. I recently put it on over Stealth Rock since Donphan also has Stealth Rock. Could be convinced to put SR back on if I took it off Donphan...

    ;232;Donphan @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard

    Donphan is just great for this team. Before Donphan I didn't really have any great option to both take physical hits and dish out some good damage too. Pretty standard set, though Dugtrio can also learn Stealth Rock. I'm tempted to put Seed Bomb or Head Smash on this set and move SR to Dugtrio.

    Donphan came to the team after trying both Forretress and Starmie as spinners, and I've been content. Spinning is fairly important for the team, because of Dragonite's Multiscale and Ninetales.

    Previously used:

    Sawsbuck @ Life Orb
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 112 HP / 248 Atk / 148 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Horn Leech
    - Return
    - Nature Power
    - Swords Dance

    Starmie @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 216 Spd / 46 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Ice Beam
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover

    Mamoswine @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 232 Spd / 24 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Ice Shard
    - Superpower

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Gyro Ball
    - Rapid Spin
    - Volt Switch
    - Spikes

    Chandelure @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Also Considered:

    Specific Ideas/Concerns/Issues for you to addrress:
    Should I continue using Flamethrower? FireBlast and Overheat are obviously options.
    Should I use Will-o-Wisp or switch to another support move? Could I benefit from Hidden Power?
    Should I keep Roar over SolarBeam?
    I would love to have Earthquake on this set because then Venusaur could take out Heatran. But I wouldn't remove anything for it...
    Should I keep Superpower over Earthquake?
    Should I try a Dragon Dance variant or keep Choice Band?
    Should it have Stealth Rock or some other move (like Sucker Punch, Memento, Aerial Ace, Toxic...)
    Should it have Stealth Rock or some other move (like Seed Bomb, Stone Edge, Head Smash...)
    Should I go back to Fire Blast over Magma Storm?
    Should I switch HP Ice for Earth Power? I am happy with HP Ice.

    Thank you in advance for your help and responses!
    PS Can anyone tell me how to get the little sprites/icons things? Thanks! :D
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  2. loco1234


    Your team looks pretty solid, but you might want to try:

    Giga Drain on Venusaur was illegal with Chlorophyll last I checked, since it's an egg move (impossible to pass Chlorophyll and Giga Drain to the same baby Bulbasaur because of how breeding works in the actual games, so illegal on the simulators) so change it to Solarbeam and drop Sunny Day for Growth.

    Drop Dragonite for Volcarona. CB Dragonite is incredibly dangerous, but in the sun Volcarona is better. Try something like

    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Flame Body
    Bold Nature
    240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spe
    Quiver Dance
    Fiery Dance
    Bug Buzz
    Morning Sun/SolarBeam

    Sunny Day on Ninetails is a good idea, but Air Balloon or Heat Rock over Leftovers there.
  3. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Hey Loco, thanks for the advice.

    Giga Drain on Chlorophyll is no longer illegal, I believe. Something about BW2. I've considered Growth, though if I don't have Sunny Day on Venusaur I think I'd much prefer to run Energy Ball over SolarBeam. I'm hesitant because Venusaur is a much easier target without the sun; Sunny Day on him has landed me loads of kills. I'll keep it in mind though.

    I definitely have considered Volcarona, as I mentioned. It's almost too good to pass up! I just want to make sure it doesn't make my team too water/SR weak, which I think in its current state it would. But I really do want Volcarona, since I do actually have one in-game, and it would be cool to actually make the team :p
  4. loco1234


    Well, if it isn't illegal, no reason not to! Growth just makes Venusaur godly. +2 to both offensive stats with the Chlorophyll boost is insane, but I do see your point there.

    On a sun team, Water isn't a huge threat even out of the sun because you've got a couple Grass-types there. Stealth Rock, yeah, Volcarona has a problem with that. You do have a spinner though. Rocks are a common problem for Sun teams because of their Fire-type abusers, Volcarona in particular, but it's always been worth it to me. That's just my preference though.
  5. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Yeah I'll definitely still consider Volcarona over Dragonite. But I think Growth will have to stay off of Venusaur for now-- unless I put it on for Sludge Bomb, which is an option, but I do get a few good hits off every now and then with that. Honestly I feel like Venusaur is perfect ^_^
  6. Darkerones

    Darkerones SlowpokeHunter

    Quite a solid team here I must say,my first suggestion is to change Starmie's EVs to 248 HP 62 Def 200 Speed. Now you hit a Leftys number,increase your physical bulk and still outspeed Base 108s. You can also run 216 Speed if you want to outspeed the Latis. Running max speed isnt ideal since Azelf is rarely seen,you cant do anything against CS Magnezone or Raikou and beating opposing Starmie is a long shot. That being said,I really would put PSYSHOCK > Tbolt to slam Terrakion in the sand and Keldeo after multiple CMs. Psyshock also doesnt make you setup fodder against Toxicroak in the rain and takes a chunk out of Tentacruel,somewhat reducing your weakness to rainstall. You only lose the ability to KO Gyarados,who is rather uncommon in todays metagame.

    I love your use of Sunny Day on Venusaur,most people wont see it coming and will force weather inducers that are switching in back out,which is great but kind of wasted because THERE ISNT A SINGLE ENTRY HAZARD ON THIS TEAM.

    To fix this:
    I recommend putting on Heatran Stealth Rock > HP Ice since most of the Dragons that you would hit with HP Ice arent gonna like a sun boosted Fire Blast any better,plus,since you have Air Balloon to protect you from Earthquake you have a fair opportunity to 2HKO Salamence (most likely OHKO after rocks) and 2HKO Dragonite after rocks with Fire Blast. However,you can only accomplish this with a MODEST nature. A Sun boosted Fire Blast actually outdamages a x2 SE HP Ice,just keep that in mind.
    If you dont take my suggestion and stick with HP Ice,shift 52 Speed EVs to HP since the IVs for HP Ice require you give up the speed tie with other Heatran.

    Frosslass,while unorthodox,is also an option to consider over maybe Sawsbuck since she can set up Spikes AND Spinblock at the same time,plus she has access to Thunder(bolt) and Blizzard(beam) to defend herself decently against other weather. Spikes support will make it easier for Venusaur and Dnite to clean up late game.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  7. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all your input! I'll be making a few of your changes in just a minute.

    EDIT: Red on green is a LITTLE rough on the eyes. lmao
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  8. Jr Breshears

    Jr Breshears PKMN Breeder

    Hey looks pretty solid but I have a few changes you could try. First off Venusaur, you can try this set which i've used to great success...

    Venusaur @ Life Orb
    Ev's:92 Atk/252 Sp.A/164 Spe
    Naive Nature
    -Hidden Power [Ice]
    -Energy Ball
    This set covers a lot of things. Outspeeds and KO's most dragons after a Growth with of course HP ice. And Heatran can't wall you as most are also KO'd after a Growth. Lastly energy ball for waters :D Next is you could try Dugtrio over Sawsbuck as you already have Venusaur and Dugtrio can trap and kill Tyranitar/Ninetales. Set

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    Ev's:252 Atk/4Sp.D/252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    -Stealth Rock
    -Sucker Punch/Stone Edge/Substitute
    I run mostly Sucker Punch or Substitute on my team but its up to you. If you do choose Sub then make the HP iv's to 21 for 50 HP Subs.Thats about it hope I helped! Oh and also try out DD Dragonite ;)
  9. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    The extreme prevalence of Rain is the only thing that prevents me from running a Venusaur that would need to set up or be so dependent on the sun. Growth is tempting, and this set definitely looks great. If I were ever going to run a different set, this would be the one! Maybe if I had another bulky-ish SunnyDayer on the team...

    I could consider that Dugtrio, it does seem like it would help me out with some of my counters. I've been testing Froslass in the spot of Sawsbuck and it's been okay but Dugtrio may be better.

    EDIT: Maybe I can use that Venusaur set, AND put Sunny Day on Heatran over Stealth Rock, and then switch in Dugtrio for Sawsbuck and use SR on him... Hmmm... ***Testing this now

    EDIT: Why Hasty instead of Jolly on that Dugtrio? Error?
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  10. Jr Breshears

    Jr Breshears PKMN Breeder

    To get knocked down to the sash easier for reversal.
  11. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Ohh hehe that's silly that I didn't see that. It seems to be working all right so far! Less so for countering Ninetales/Tyranitar because I haven't come across SO many, but moreso just to get StealthRock out quickly and retreat to hit something later with some good force.

    I also noticed that I have kind of a Conkeldurr weakness. It's too risky to switch into Dragonite because he could predict it. Usually something just has to die...
  12. Ilan

    Ilan Well-Known Member

    Actually you seem to have forgetten that dragons resist fire so actually fire blast in the sun against salamence 135 BP (120*2.25 /2) HP ice 280 BP (70*4)
    so I reccommend HP ice > solar beam not only solar beam is risky it doesn't get stab from it and it hit nothing too special (maybe gastordon but he is covered by venusaur anyway while salamence and dragonite are way more common don't forget gliscor too (although only 10 BP stronger than a neutral fireblast) I am sure fire blast will do a decent damage but salamence will outspeed and KO if the balloon is gone.

    I like the sunny day on venusar it is a good idea you can try to mke it like the opponent had won once ninetales has fainted then they might get their politoer/tyranitar to faint to set up or something.. then you can counter the weather and win the weather war it is a nice idea..
    GIga Drain>energy ball for every venusaur set it have 7.5 less BP but recovery is always a nice thing specially to a bulky pokemon like venusaur and now it is a B2W2 move tutor move.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  13. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your help/advice. I'll try out HP Ice on Heatran over Solarbeam instead. I do have Solarbeam already on Ninetales, which can take a scald or two from pretty much anything unboosted in the sun, and as you know, Venusaur really should be in against them anyway.
  14. cookies kill you

    cookies kill you Like a boss

    sleep powder giga drain growth is a veeeeery good set for Venasaur when hes in the sun
  15. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    The only purpose of putting Growth on Venusaur for me would be to boost Earthquake, which it doesn't currently have. I'd sacrifice Sludge Bomb for Earthquake in a heartbeat (though with the accompanying natuer change), and am still considering it, but Sunny Day for Growth just won't happen.
  16. cookies kill you

    cookies kill you Like a boss

    alright i was just giving you my stradegy since i only have one poke who brings out weather
  17. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Yeah it's cool, don't worry about it. I really love that Venusaur forces switches though. I can't tell you how many times there is sun up and then someone sounds out Politoed/Tyranitar thinking they're safe in the rain/sand. Venusaur can take out both of them, though it's usually kind of close. That's his purpose on the team really. And he's a hugee Ferrothorn killer. People must assume I don't have HP Fire and send in Ferro or Scizor. I don't even know if they're going to attack me or set up, because they never get the chance!
  18. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Recently made a ton of changes! It's been a while so check them out please. :)
  19. Shiny_Milotic

    Shiny_Milotic Well-Known Member

    Made more changes! Come on people, I really would like input! Or at least tell me if you have no advice. :D
  20. Hopkinc1

    Hopkinc1 Music = Life

    Dude you confused the Hell out of me! Palkia is NOT Heatran :p

    All seriousness aside though The team is really well made! I do enjoy it.

    I do, however suggest a different Heatran set. The one you use is good but it's more of an attacker. I'd use this:

    Heatran @ Leftovers/Air Balloon
    Calm Nature | 252 SpDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
    Lava Plume | Stealth Rock/Roar | Protect | Earth Power

    This gives you the Special Wall you team is lacking and also gives you a bit of versatility. Lava Plume has a high burn rate. Think about this for a second also: How many people think that there will be 2 stealt rockers on a team? ;) If you don't wanna use that you can put on roar for some phasing. Protect is fairly obvious, and earth power is for coverage.

    Giga Drain and Chlorophyll Sweeper Venusaur is also legal now because of the move tutors (I'm sure that was answered already, but I didn't read the comments.)

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