Super Smash Bros. Thread (Read the First Post)

[Jb]

You are claiming false statements as fact and acting like an elitist. That alone is annoying as hell, let alone the fact you hav these god awful misconcieved notions about competitive players.

Multiquoting your post is taking way too much time, so i'll get down to it.

Like I said, you might be the best in the world at Tourney Rules , but not the best in the game in general.

Why do you disagree with this?

 

[darkgamerGS]

Kinda relevant question:

Why do people prohibit items in Smash Bros. but using them in Mario Kart is okay? Is it cause most Mario Kart games won't let you turn off items? If that were the case, what if Smash Bros. forced items to be on?

 

[Mewtwo_soul]

Multiquoting your post is taking way too much time, so i'll get down to it.



Why do you disagree with this?

That's not the part I disagreed with.

The part I'm disagreeing with is the Foxshine "If they're so skillful they should dodge it." Which implies they don't have skill if they are unable to dodge it which factually Fox Shine is quite easy for even decent Fox players. (Not that Fox is easy to get good with to begin with)

Saying that if a person doesn't playall parts of a game they aren't the best which is plain ignorant. They are obviously one of the best players.

That guy that tops OU and doesn't touch LC/UU/etc. He is still one of the best players. Regardless if he hasn't touched the others.


The worst offense though is that you believe "Playing with items" is how the game was intended to be played. Now, although Sakurai did say he never intended Melee to be competitive to the way it was, the fact he retained the option of turning them off means that he did not believe it was "intended" to only be played with items.

See what I'm saying on this?

Pokemon have exactly four moves. Thus it is intended to be played with each Pokemon having up to four moves. It is an option. You, and everyone's choice.

When you act like the way you play is the correct way, it is wrong.

Competitive is not the sure-fire "correct way to play it." However with the intention of balance, without items is how it is mainly played because that's how competitive is intended to be played, not the overall game.

That's all I'm trying to say but you keep missing it.

 

[Mewtwo_soul]

Kinda relevant question:

Why do people prohibit items in Smash Bros. but using them in Mario Kart is okay? Is it cause most Mario Kart games won't let you turn off items? If that were the case, what if Smash Bros. forced items to be on?

Mario Kart isn't taken as seriously competitive is the difference. Very few racers are. Blue is also in the same category but not considered competitive. Most racers still have tournies, but they do not get point in said grouping.

Project Gotham Racing is one of the few examples of competitive viable racer.

If it didn't have an option SSB wouldn't be competitively viable, and to the opinion of many fighting game fans from other series it's still a joke. (I hate those kinds of people)

 

[Jb]

That's not the part I disagreed with.

Then everything else you say is irrelevant because, my first(well 2nd) post said.

I love how poeople say their the best at this Series but then when you play them, they alway go to Battlefeild and Final Destination, I mean, sure they are good there, but untill they can play good on all the levels with the Items on and win, they should stfu.

I myself don't consider you being good just because you won using toureny rules, well maybe thats too much, they are good, better then me, way better then me, but better than me at tourney rules.

You follow?

Someone who has won a bunch of standard(Not sure what you call them) tourneys, AND can win tourneys with Items and Unbalenced Stages, is what i'd consider a "Best player in the world".

Now like I said, tourneys players aren't the best, they ARE good, better than me, but not the best when playing the game with items and all stages.


I've laddered the UU ladder at #3 once and at #5 once, am I one of the best? No, maybe in that Teir, for that Week, then yes, but because of the multitude of people playing, I no longer am.

 

[Mewtwo_soul]

Then everything else you say is irrelevant because, my first(well 2nd) post said.

Which again you had a bad point on. >.>

I myself don't consider you being good just because you won using toureny rules, well maybe thats too much, they are good, better then me, way better then me, but better than me at tourney rules.

Anyone who plays the tourneys and becomes known as best in the world isn't just going to lose to you just by not playing tourney rules. They prefer tourney rules in actual tournaments because in reality if you aren't as good as them, it actually gives you more of a chance to stand against them.


One pro showed a video one time playing Melee with all items on, he started to KO a guy by edgeguarding with the umbrella which is the WORST item in Melee. He netted 3 Stock within a little over a minute.

Someone who has won a bunch of standard(Not sure what you call them) tourneys, AND can win tourneys with Items and Unbalenced Stages, is what i'd consider a "Best player in the world".

"Offiicial" or just a huge amount of tourneys. The problem is most competitive games do not run "unbalanced stages" and regardless of competitive as mentioned "the best players" will do good regardless of game, how they are played, when they are played, by who they are played. Which is me repeating myself multiple times now. Which is how you missed my point earlier on the said subject and argued against what I said.

Now like I said, tourneys players aren't the best, they ARE good, better than me, but not the best when playing the game with items and all stages.

That isn't what I said. Playing in a tourney doesn't make you good. You can play a tournament without any further competitive metagame knowledge, however those with that knowledge will do good.

Better way to make my statement: If you play someone who thinks because they play by competitive rules makes them amazing "Competitive wannabes" will still lose. They jump the bandwagon, but like I pointed out in my post, I wasn't addressing them, I was addressing those who do know what they are doing.

I've laddered the UU ladder at #3 once and at #5 once, am I one of the best? No, maybe in that Teir, for that Week, then yes, but because of the multitude of people playing, I no longer am.

That's not the same thing at all. During the start of a metagame anyone can shoot up to #1. I was #1 on Pac Man Championship Edition DX when it first came out. However, I didn't have staying power. [But seeing as I'm still in the top .7%, that's still great, whih is a point I'm also saying: I may no longer be one of the best. However, I'm still one of the intermediate players and an expert at it due to such.]

Later on though, the #1 spot becomes more focused and those who are at #1 continue to dominate at and around that spot placing due to being one of the best.
Those people are truly one of the best players, this is due to the fact by then the metagame has been established, there won't be many changes.

However, arguing placings on PO or SO/etc. Isn't really the same thing as Fighters which place tournaments that get them fame for a reason.

Even then the top players of a competitive game are still "the best" players because they will beat basically everyone regardless unless someone puts enough time in to rank with them which doesn't happen often. (Ken SSBM) However, it's also silly to go "what if" someone comes along? If they haven't then those people are still ranked as the best until proven otherwise.

That's been my point stemming sine my first quote of your posts, which was widely ignored or misunderstood.


Note: When I stated "Won't lose to you"

Keep in mind, I didn't mean "you" directly, take it more of as meaning a standard player or someone who isn't as skillfull as them.

 

[Reznor]

Mario Kart isn't taken as seriously competitive is the difference. Very few racers are. Blue is also in the same category but not considered competitive. Most racers still have tournies, but they do not get point in said grouping.

Project Gotham Racing is one of the few examples of competitive viable racer.

If it didn't have an option SSB wouldn't be competitively viable, and to the opinion of many fighting game fans from other series it's still a joke. (I hate those kinds of people)

i beg to differ there... i usually go to roughly 13 gaming tournaments a year (not including tournaments at anime conventions).. mario kart has a crazy tournament scene.. theres been several tournaments i been to where it took as long to get through the 1st round roster of mario kart as it did for Brawl... which at normal turnout for these tournaments is 3 hours.. anyone thats been to ohayocon can confirm.

as far as brawl.. competetive play skills and general playing there isn't much difference.. most people see items as cheap kills, which granted some are.. just because i play in MLG doesn't mean i claim to be best by far.. yeah i have a lot of rep at tournaments but its due to overall skill.. i can play with or without items, makes no difference to me.. (personal favorite is bob-ombs) but as for people picking battlefield and final destination, reasonnbeing there is its an even field, no low celing, the bottom is recoverable (love doing this with luigi) the only hindering thing here is floaters have a better recovery advantage, but for people like myself that can rocket jump with diddy, thats not an issue.. specific stages are direct counterpicks for some characters.. example, olimar is very hindered on his own stage.. true skill is when stage and items arent a factor.. i personally enjoy an onslaught of cracker launcher rounds aimed at me.. but regardless, being able to play well on a counterpick stage is skill in itself

 

[XDbonsly]

Like I said, you might be the best in the world at Tourney Rules , but not the best in the game in general.

Here's the thing:

We ban items/stages because of the broken strategies that are done with them. Top level competitive players know these strategies and can abuse them even better than normal players because they've had immense practice with the game.

The pros win tournies because they're amazing players. While then couldn't win AS consistently with stupid items and stages (due to randomness in items and huge match-up bias in counterpicking stages, NOBODY ON EARTH could win consistently with free-for-all rules. It's impossible, at some point a Bob-Omb is going to land in front of your smash and cost you the match), they would still win. The people playing with items aren't the ones insanely practicing like the pros are, and while the former can use these to their advantage, the latter can heavily, heavily, heavily abuse them.

Mew2King is arguably the best Brawl player in the world by tourney rules.
Mew2King is arguably the best Brawl player in the world with items and all stages.

Now can we get past this? I hate to see that all this thread is trying to prove that we can handle ourselves after years of being banned from Smash threads, and now everyone's arguing again. For the sake of everyone, let's stop. :/

P.S. Don't expect me to respond to any counterarguments. I rarely ever go on Serebii, and I just stumbled upon this thread in one of my visits. Yelling at me more is pointless. Just go on and talk about the fun things, like Melee or something.

 

[woot21]

I never said it was a hack, you did, but I'll be a nice guy and just remove that part from my post so you can stop hating. Using purist to define a hardcode Melee player that goes by tournament rules is incorrect, as purist means they would prefer everything about the games, including the items. Professional smash players generally don't prefer items and they're "purists" of the game.

You're going into the game's data and changing values, that is either a hack or mod. Simple as that.

Now for the argument that has been raging the past few pages... When I play with my friends (IRL), we vary how we play (levels, items, number of players, character restrictions, etc.) and those of us who win most of the time under non-tourney rules win consistently, regardless of items, etc. That being said I have the most fun with the game playing it with items, 4 players, etc. Note that emphasized game, because that's what it is a game that is meant to be fun.

All sports are highly competitive games, and all have luck involved, to a pretty high degree too. That factor is the refs/umps. Shouldn't that factor be removed then, going be SSB tourney logic? And how do you do that? Machines take the place of the people.

One last thing, DI isn't air dodging after a hit, it's how you move the control stick when you first get launched.

woot21 out dawgs

 

[Reznor]

Here's the thing:

We ban items/stages because of the broken strategies that are done with them. Top level competitive players know these strategies and can abuse them even better than normal players because they've had immense practice with the game.

The pros win tournies because they're amazing players. While then couldn't win AS consistently with stupid items and stages (due to randomness in items and huge match-up bias in counterpicking stages, NOBODY ON EARTH could win consistently with free-for-all rules. It's impossible, at some point a Bob-Omb is going to land in front of your smash and cost you the match), they would still win. The people playing with items aren't the ones insanely practicing like the pros are, and while the former can use these to their advantage, the latter can heavily, heavily, heavily abuse them.

Mew2King is arguably the best Brawl player in the world by tourney rules.
Mew2King is arguably the best Brawl player in the world with items and all stages.

Now can we get past this? I hate to see that all this thread is trying to prove that we can handle ourselves after years of being banned from Smash threads, and now everyone's arguing again. For the sake of everyone, let's stop. :/

P.S. Don't expect me to respond to any counterarguments. I rarely ever go on Serebii, and I just stumbled upon this thread in one of my visits. Yelling at me more is pointless. Just go on and talk about the fun things, like Melee or something.

i played mew2king last time i was in dallas for the MLG circuit, and i agree that he's arguably the best player at the game, items and stages being a factor or not. i usually play against Kel or his GF Kassandra (or Kassy) and they both main meta knight. i'm able to stay on par with kirby or diddy. other than that, this thread has gotten into another rage fest like the previous ones.. bout as bad as the actual tournaments i go to... there's just not some heavily obese guy bowling through the croud screaming "THIS GAME IS BULLSH*T!!" because he got smacked in the head with a waddle dee at the beginning of sudden death..

 

[Mewtwo_soul]

i beg to differ there... i usually go to roughly 13 gaming tournaments a year (not including tournaments at anime conventions).. mario kart has a crazy tournament scene.. theres been several tournaments i been to where it took as long to get through the 1st round roster of mario kart as it did for Brawl... which at normal turnout for these tournaments is 3 hours.. anyone thats been to ohayocon can confirm.

as far as brawl.. competetive play skills and general playing there isn't much difference.. most people see items as cheap kills, which granted some are.. just because i play in MLG doesn't mean i claim to be best by far.. yeah i have a lot of rep at tournaments but its due to overall skill.. i can play with or without items, makes no difference to me.. (personal favorite is bob-ombs) but as for people picking battlefield and final destination, reasonnbeing there is its an even field, no low celing, the bottom is recoverable (love doing this with luigi) the only hindering thing here is floaters have a better recovery advantage, but for people like myself that can rocket jump with diddy, thats not an issue.. specific stages are direct counterpicks for some characters.. example, olimar is very hindered on his own stage.. true skill is when stage and items arent a factor.. i personally enjoy an onslaught of cracker launcher rounds aimed at me.. but regardless, being able to play well on a counterpick stage is skill in itself

Ugh. Tournaments=/=competitive.

Many games have tournaments, even MKD/MK VS. DC has had tournaments in the fighting game genre, even Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, even Burnout at one point. They are not "good" competitive games. I lik those same games, I like Mario Kart (have it in my GCN right now), they aren't good competitively and items is the reason. That's why no racing game tournament goer will ever look at it in the same light as Project Gotham Racing which isn't as fun imho but that doesn't matter (what I think is subjective).

On the other part: Ken in SSBM tournaments a few years back faced PD (Marth Vs. Falco) on Kirby's Dreamland (the one with the Tree) Falco had the advantage and Marth was at a clear disadvantage. Ken still lost. Due to the random variables on the stage (The wind blowing and how the layout is)... Now he didn't do as good against PD as he did compared to any other map where they faced. (Even FD where Falco has the clear projectile oriented advantage)...

This just goes to show, just because an item didn't cause someone to lose when you were playing doesn't mean it can't happen or that it won't or that a person is less skilled due to how their preformance is with items on/random variables...


The whole banning on most major tournaments is due to a potential factor.

It's like Pokemon, Mewtwo can be easily handled with the right Pokemon the problem is, even with counters if you don't have those "potential counters" you lose. Your whole team will be sweeped. Same as most every other uber, and Wobbu... Dear lord, anyone remember when it was first considered worth banning? The tournament that ended in Wobbu Vs. Wobbu leading to a stall to the death?


Anyway that's what I'm trying to say.

 

[Nibbles4Ever]

I haven't played Brawl in so long but it was my first wii game I ever got, besides Okami which I dn't have anymore.

 

[Deoxys911]

Ah, yes... So it returns! Let's get to business, shall we?

What was your most recent Smash Bros. experience?

Nothing particularly special. My friend and I played it on my last birthday, but it was really nothing special. A more interesting experience was earlier last year, when I once again played the original, and discovered something about myself that I seriously doubt anyone else di-

I realized that I suck with pretty much all the characters.

Nevermind.

 

[Magiclapras]

I have Brawl, my top 2 is Meta Knight followed by Lucario. Other characters I find good are Zelda, Ice Climbers, Lucas, Marth, both Links, Peach...

I say that you aren't considered an expert until you can avoid Tabuu's Off-Waves. Which SOMEHOW I managed to do twice lately. I say I just got lucky...

 

[Nightmare Gengar]

Why does SSB cause so much arguing?

But anyways, I'm horrible at these games. xD If I was playing with some of the people in this thread, I'd last seconds. If I'm lucky. But my favorite character's Toon Link :3

 

[Skiks]

Because people can't handle the fact that people like to play differently.

 

[Mankanshoku Mako]

I say that you aren't considered an expert until you can avoid Tabuu's Off-Waves. Which SOMEHOW I managed to do twice lately. I say I just got lucky...

I must be god at this game then because I can avoid that nearly without fail. I infact find that to be the most easily avoidable attack that boss can use.

 

[woot21]

@D911: Your return to a SSB thread is just two quotes long? What's wrong with you man?

Anyways I recently played Brawl the other day with 3 lvl 9 CPUs and items on high and I realized I am out of practice. I won only 3 of the 10 games I played. I wasn't used to the speed or anything. Though two of those wins came in the final two games. So I was starting to get back in the swing of things.

woot21 out dawgs

 

[Zazie]

I like Meelee and Brawl, but can't handle the originalo mostly due to the terrible N64 controller. I prefer to play casually with items and like to play Time and really enjoy playing in team matchs, using the CPU tp keep it at 4 players and random stages. I find that typical games on the more serious end (usually the semi-serious ones) are a little too turtley (if people are familiar with the term). Don't really play too often, its more of an occasional party game for me.

My best character is Young/Toon Link, who I can play fairly well with. I oftentimes play other characters even if I am sometimes at a serious disadvantage.

 

[fhqwhgads]

This thread sucks, it's all tourneyfags, I'm leaving.