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Suspect +/ Possible Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Older Gens' started by John Wallrein, Apr 3, 2013.

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  1. John Wallrein

    John Wallrein I am the walrein

    [​IMG] Serebii Suspect Discussion[​IMG]


    This thread is here for members of the Serebii community to discuss either current Pokemon being suspect tested by Smogon or Pokemon that you or others may feel deserved to be tested. This is NOT a thread to just spam with "Ban suchandsuch because its too strong" or "it sweeps my team." We need meaningful discussion backed with relevant information. This means for every post in which you either agree or disagree with a certain Pokemon being mentioned you need to back your opinion with information to support your argument.

    Claiming a Pokemon does not perform well in Ubers, therefore should not be banned is NOT an acceptable argument, as a Pokemons performance in Ubers has no merit on its being banished to there or not.


    Now for specific Pokemon Discussion!


    [​IMG]
    Kyurem-B
     
  2. OceanicLanturn

    OceanicLanturn Non non non!

    I suggest the discussion of suspect tests for other tiers beside OU, to make it more interesting.

    Anyways, on the topic of Landorus-I. I think it's just ridiculous. I mean, Landorus-I can sweep teams, yes. I RP then proceed to kill stuff. However, I personally find it suffering the four move syndrome. There's always one pokemon that takes no **** for Landy's move. If you run HP Ice/Earth Power/Focus Blast/filler, you have to choose between Psychic, Sub or RP. If you go for psychic, you get crippled by status and you can get revenge killed. Sub? You can get easily revenge killed and Rotom-W takes nothing from you. If you go for RP, you get crippled by mons that you can't OHKO with Toxic/whatever and Rotom-W still takes nothing from you.

    Personally, it deserves to be OU. It may be a strong force, but the glaring x4 ice weakness and the presence of Mamo & faster mons in the tier, and Rotom-W, gives it a reason to stay OU.
     
  3. Ultimate Champion

    Ultimate Champion 瞞天過海

    Smogon has suspect tested the lifting of both the OHKO Clause and the Evasion Clause in the Übers tier in the past. Currently, they are suspect testing the lifting of the Moody Clause in that tier, and in the future they will suspect test the lifting of the Sleep Clause and then the Species Clause. However... I strongly believe that there needs to be a sixth Übers suspect test: one that tests the banning of by far the most versatile, overpowered and overcentralizing Pokémon, as well as by far the deadliest sweeper in any metagame ever since Snorlax in GSC OU... the God and Creator of the Pokémon world: The Alpha Pokémon, Arceus.
     
  4. UbersSuck20

    UbersSuck20 #FreeGenesect

    Landorus-I has no answer to Ice Shard, which means Weavile rapes him. He also suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome and can't take too many hits.

    Of course he gets some real strengths too, like 125 / 115 offenses that Gliscor and Landorus-T could only dream of emulating, as well as trolly base 101 speed and a great ability. And he's a better Choice user than the other two genies. But I think Landorus-I is fine in OU. He isn't Tornadus-T or Deoxys-D.
     
  5. T-Bolt

    T-Bolt Electrifying.

    Sure Mamoswine can take it out with an ice shard. But can Mamoswine switch in to Landorus? On the other hand, Landorus can simply switch out and let another pokemon that resists ice moves take the ice shard.

    Well, Rotom-w is a good counter to most Landorus sets, but many of the pokemon banned from OU have had counters in OU as well.

    In short Landorus is a really versatile sweeper, it can run both physical and special sets, which means it can have specific counters that are vastly different based on the set it uses.

    It's also got quite a few resistances, giving it a large number of opportunities to switch in, and sweep with it's powerful offensive stats.

    I can't really think of any counters either (apart from Rotom-W). In response to UbersSuck20, Weavile is hardly seen in OU, and can only counter Landorus if its holding a Focus Sash. Is Ferrothorn a good one? I guess I'll have to check.

    So IMO it should be banned.
     
  6. John Wallrein

    John Wallrein I am the walrein

    No one uses Weavile though, Mamoswine would be a better example, however neither can switch into Landorus, they can only hope to come in and revenge it after one of there teammates has been killed. He does suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome yes, but that also makes him unpredictable for the defending team. You really can't be positive of the move he's running in the fourth slot until its too late quite often. If he's running U-turn in the last slot, the Celebi you're packing specifically to beat Sheer Force Landorus is now toast. If he's running Rock Polish he's able to sweep and your Scarf'd revenge killer won't beat him. There are other moves he is able to run in that last slot as well that help to make Landorus-I a very unpredictable Pokemon. There are a minimal amount of safe switch ins as he can 1-2HKO a large portion of the metagame, and with his coverage moves Pokemon that you might believe could stop him are now grouped into those who are KO'd.

    Actually SpD Rotom-W is 2HKO'd after Stealth Rock's with Focus Blast, and Standard Ferrothorn is 1HKO'd by Focus Blast 62.5% of the time.
     
  7. Soperman

    Soperman The One and Only

    How does Psychic help against Rotom-W? If anything, it's even more useless, as FB still has the Sp. Def lowering side-effect and more power. I'd think Rotom-W still walls it.
    However, the fact that one pokemon walls is kind of only half an excuse not to get it sent into Ubers. If it can only be countered by one pokemon, then it means the pokemon is too strong and should be sent into Ubers. Lots of pokemon struggle against this beast, and the fact that maybe two off of the top of my head (Jellicent being the other one) can wall it doesn't bode well for it.
     
  8. John Wallrein

    John Wallrein I am the walrein

    As I stated spD Rotom-W is 2HKO'd 100% of the time with Focus Blast. If your running a choiced set then you still run a large risk as 4 HP / 0 spD neutral natured Rotom-W will take (80.99% - 95.45%) from a Focus Blast, meaning it has a 54% chance to get 1HKO'd after Rocks, not ideal. Therefore I don't believe Rotom-W can be called a "counter."


    Your average SpD Jellicent as taken from Smogon at 252 HP / 220 SpD +SpD Nature will take (41.58% - 49.01%) from an Earth Power, meaning 12.5% Chance at a 2HKO after SR + Leftovers recovery, so you better make sure your Jellicent hasn't taken prior damage if you want to use him to beat Landorus.
     
  9. AnakBaé

    AnakBaé Well-Known Member

    Beware, long post is coming.

    [​IMG]

    Nothing can really take a Sheer Power & LO boosted attacks from Lando. The combination of not-too-shabby 115 base Sp.Atk, added with its above average 101 base speed, access to Rock Polish, elite Ground type STAB, and the amazing boost from Sheer Force ability is just ridiculous! This guy is probably the better version of the UU monster, Nidoking, because Landorus is obviously faster and packs more power, compared to Nido's lame 85 base special attack stat. Unlike Nido, Lando is a bit suffered from the relatively shallow Special movepools, BUT the combination of Earth Power, Focus Blast, and HP ice is more than enough to completely annihilate almost the entire OU mons.
    Here is the calcs of Lando's power against its most common switches/checks:

    • 252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 169-200 (55.96 - 66.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
      Notes: Only noons use Hp ice against Latios during early game stage. HP ice is meant to be used during lategame stage where every Latios are hardly weakened. Since most Lando are usually used with sand, sand wears latios down overtime, which will increase the chance of 2hko or 0hko everytime you prolong the game, and dont forget stealth rock support, T-tar easily is one of the best partner with lando, since it traps latios/latias with ease.


      252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
      Notes: Blissey/chansey is one of Lando's counter? Wrong. You will never know what does a Landorus pack in his moveslot. Physical Lando is still common, so switching in your blissey to face a lando without proper research & investigations of opposing lando moveset is a bad idea and will possibly cost you your best special wall in your team. I've seen this multiple times and it's quite hard to tell what kind of landorus it is until it reveals its color during the lategame stage.
    • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.86 - 55.44%) -- 16.41% chance to 2HKO (Guaranteed 2hko after SR)

    • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- 98.12% chance to 3HKO

    • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 309-367 (87.78 - 104.26%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 230-270 (59.89 - 70.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    • 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 81-96 (18.24 - 21.62%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock CRESSELIA IS THE BEST SPECIAL LANDORUS COUNTER, PANTS DOWN.

    • 252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 133-159 (32.92 - 39.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    • 0- Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 291-343 (72.02 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Now, about how to revenge kill the brown genie. It takes quite a bit of an effort to kill a lando, especially after it "polishes" itself and hit the blazing 602 speed (modest) so here is the best partners to get lando bites the dust:

    • Mamoswine: is the easiest answer to kill a landorus (no sub), BUT you have to sacrifice something before unleashing the ice mammoth, which is somewhat reliable yet risky.

    • Weavile: Read mamoswine above, change the "Mamoswine" to Weavile, and the "Ice mammoth" to ice weasel.

    • Scizor:
      252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 177-208 (55.48 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
      Notes: Thanks to sheer force, it doesnt take recoil from life orb, so, make sure that the lando has 65% HP or below or your scizor will get demolished.

    • Extremespeed users
      Banded/DD-nite is probably your best bet to kill a Lando, but make sure that the opposing Lando is sitting below 60% HP:
      252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extremespeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: ExtremeSpeed: 50.15 - 59.24%

    Conclusion:
    Landorus is a big threat and okay to be banned.
     
  10. SylveonLover

    SylveonLover Banned

    In my opinion Lando-I has the spot it deserves in OU. As mentioned above this post (No Idea why it hasn't been mentioned) Cresselia brushes off everything from Lando-I and can use it as set up bait. Also, it can use Ice Beam for a certain 2HKO. doing 81.25% to 96.25% HP damage in one hit. Note that that is 0 Sp.A Cress vs. 4 HP/0 SpD. Cresselia just murders Special Lando. While Cresselia is rare, it still remains one of the best Special Landorus-I Counters.


    Lando-I: Stay in OU
    Bidoof: Will shoot to Ubers when Moody clause is unbanned (no joke)
     
  11. Sparkbeat

    Sparkbeat FLASH! AAAHHHAAA!

    1 - No one uses Cres and Lando is often paired with Tyranitar or Scizor, who both either force cress out or trap her.
    2. May Smogon and PO never again unleash the unholy bastard that is known as Moody Bidoof

    imo, Landorus should be banned. Like Genesect, it takes a bit to know what set it is. And if they save him for Late Game, then its too late to prepare yourself for what set it is since they've probably set up a Lando sweep. Sure Landorus has more checks than Genesect, but those checks are narrowed down to Priority users, and at that only 1 can OHKO. Rotom-W is 2HKO's by Focus Miss, Latias will either suck a u-turn or get hit by an HP Ice, which will give away its set and effect the Landorus players decsions, Jellicent I believe is 2HKO'd by Earth Power with rocks down, Gastrodon and the Blobs get stomped by physical sets or Lando's teammates. So, being able to OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame with only 1 (3 if you count Weavile [lol] or Ice Shard Cloyster [lol]) is too strong to have in this metagame. And this is mainly focusing on the special set. The fact that it has a legit Physical presence as well is just icing on the cake. This guy reminds me way to much of Genesect :$
     
  12. SylveonLover

    SylveonLover Banned

    1. I use Cress *shotx1000000*
    2.x\ I agree 100 % XD

    True, but once its set is given away it can be stopped, just like Gene.
     
  13. T-Bolt

    T-Bolt Electrifying.

    People usually learn what set Landorus is using the hard way. You wouldn't want to lose a pokemon just to learn what the set is.

    And yes, Genesect could be stopped once you learnt what set it used. It went to Ubers anyway.

    The same thing's going to happen to Landorus as well. Its usage may be relatively low, but it's still a very dangerous Pokemon.
     
  14. John Wallrein

    John Wallrein I am the walrein

    The problem with your argument though is that your basically suggesting that every team should use a Cresselia so that they have an answer to Sheer Force Landorus. This obviously is not a legitimate expectation.

    So far Cresselia has been the only Pokemon mentioned to counter Landorus-I, and as Sparkbeat noted, Cresselia is trapped and killed by extremely common Landorus-I teammates such as Tyranitar. Thus if a Pokemon can only have one real "hard" counter, that counter can be eliminated fairly easily and then you proceed to sweep throught the opposing team because no other Pokemon can take its hits.
     
  15. AnakBaé

    AnakBaé Well-Known Member

    Not really, scarf Genesect was the most common set for Gene, everyone know that. Maybe 80% (not a reliable source) of Genesects on PO/PS are scarfed with obvious moveset (U-turn, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, T-bolt) but its still feared and banned for it's ability to put a high amount of pressure on team building.

    If someone uses Cresselia just to counter Lando, then something is obviously overcentralizing the metagame. Like Cont Trail/Spark said, T-tar, one of Lando's best buddy kills Cresselia anyway, so, not much hope for Cress to saves the day. In Lando case, taking hits from it is a bad idea, while Scarf or priority users is your best bet to kill it.
     
  16. UbersSuck20

    UbersSuck20 #FreeGenesect

    Weavile doesn't need Focus Sash to defeat Landorus. It's a revenge killer, which means it can come in after one of its teammates fainted. If Landorus has a Rock Polish under its belt, then Weavile can rape it with Ice Shard.
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 348-421 (109.09 - 131.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If no Rock Polish, then you can play a Pursuit game with Lando or go for the kill with Ice Punch.
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def retreating Landorus: 175-208 (54.85 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I've mentioned Weavile and not Mamo because the latter's only answer to Landorus is Ice Shard. Landorus is faster than Mamo and it can simply switch out before Mamo can respond, going to something like Scizor.

    As for Ferrothorn...
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 309-367 (87.78 - 104.26%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
     
  17. Mr. Timn

    Mr. Timn with an "n"!

    i think landorus is kinda broken, but i always use this on my offensive teams so it's not a big problem.

    cresselia, light clay
    timid, 252 hp, 252 speed, 4 spatk
    levitate
    -ice beam
    -lightscreen
    -reflect
    -healing wish

    this set is great because it can set up screens for offense and beat landorus too. it can heal one of my sweepers with healing wish too, and it beats some dragons with ice beam. but just because you can run a cool cresselia set doesnt mean that landorus isnt really broken so too bad since cresselia is actually really awesome.
     
  18. UbersSuck20

    UbersSuck20 #FreeGenesect

    Cresselia is not a counter to Landorus-I. +2 Stone Edge 2HKOes dual screens Cresselia after Stealth Rock damage. Yeah, Landorus-I can run Swords Dance too.
     
  19. Mr. Timn

    Mr. Timn with an "n"!

    but ice beam ohkos after stealth rock so cresselia still beats landorus if it comes in while landorus uses its swords dance or as a revenge killer. also nobody complains about physical landorus with brokenness just special landorus and i have better ways of beating physical landorus. also i checked the ou moveset stats and there are two other problems with what you just said. one, only about a third of landorus even run physical sand force sets anymore, and two, swords dance doesnt even show up on the moveset stats because so few people use it. see for yourself. http://paste.ubuntu.com/5667513/

    so my cresselia set still beats the dangerous landorus sets that are common enough to worry about.
     
  20. UbersSuck20

    UbersSuck20 #FreeGenesect

    But Sand Force Landorus is still viable. Also, Smogon has a Swords Dance set for Lando-I.

    Not all dual screens Cresselia run Ice Beam. Some choose to go on Psychic or Thunder Wave. Oh yeah, and if Cress uses Thunder Wave, then she's setup fodder.
     
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