Suspects

[Zachmac]

I don't find weather that bad, I use it occasionally but I tend to try to be different than others. I dislike how filled Ou is with steel types. I feel like some of them don't deserve to be Ou. I mean, if you pack a fire type move on your team, your next to guaranteed a ko even with rain up >.<

Oh, OU shouldn't have any fighting types either. I mean, pack a psychic/flying move, and you're guaranteed a KO.

Really, I disagree. You aren't really guaranteed a KO. If you send an Infernape on a Skarmory, wouldn't it just swap out? I found myself using Zoroark just to keep them from doing that. Besides, they are all useful. Skarmory has reliable recovery, spikes, and a phazing move. Ferrothorn gets up stealth rock and spikes rather well, leech seed to sap away health from bulkier pokemon, and STAB power whip to smack water types. Forretress has stealth rock, spikes, toxic spikes, and rapid spin. Scizor has technician and STAB bullet punch, along with base 130 attack, STAB u-turn and bug bite, the latter effected by technician. Heatran is completely immune to fire anyway.

 

[jesusfreak94]

I think Dusknoir should go into UU. Nothing can come in to take a Will-o-Wisp, if he has low HP he can use Pain Split to heal, and then beat you with Earthquake and Payback. I use this set in OU and it works great.

Any Fire type, plus a handful of other things, can switch into Will-O-Wisp very easily. Plenty of other Pokemon don't mind it either. Pain Split is also hardly a reliable recovery move. On top of that, if you invest heavily into defense, Earthquake and Payback aren't going to be doing too much damage anyways. UU is a lot more powerful than it was last Gen, and Dusclops pretty much does everything Dusknoir does but better.

 

[Eaglehawk]

Gorebyss in my opinion should be either RU or UU, especially because of the SmashPass set that it often runs nowadays.

Gorebyss is already walled badly by Lanturn and Quagsire. Paralysis makes it useless.

Honestly, there is a reason Cloyster is still OU. He has enough Defense to survive a hit and Smash. After a Shell Smash, it outspeeds Scarfed OU and Icicle Spear + Rock Blast gives it decent coverage with the added bonus of sub-breaking. Even at that, it sits in the lower portion of OU.

Gorebyss' defenses are next to nothing, especially after Shell Smash, which means priority kills it, even resisted ones.

 

[Zachmac]

^But it's one of the only three pokemon to have both shell smash and baton pass, the others being Smeargle and Huntail.

Meh, I'm not 100% sure how good those things actually are...

 

[Dragonicwari]

Oh, OU shouldn't have any fighting types either. I mean, pack a psychic/flying move, and you're guaranteed a KO.

Really, I disagree. You aren't really guaranteed a KO. If you send an Infernape on a Skarmory, wouldn't it just swap out? I found myself using Zoroark just to keep them from doing that. Besides, they are all useful. Skarmory has reliable recovery, spikes, and a phazing move. Ferrothorn gets up stealth rock and spikes rather well, leech seed to sap away health from bulkier pokemon, and STAB power whip to smack water types. Forretress has stealth rock, spikes, toxic spikes, and rapid spin. Scizor has technician and STAB bullet punch, along with base 130 attack, STAB u-turn and bug bite, the latter effected by technician. Heatran is completely immune to fire anyway.

1) I didn't not say their should not be any steel types, what I was trying to say was, some of them seem kinda redundant. Forretress is exactly like ferrothorn except it spins while ferrothorn gets seeds.

2) 9/50 of the pokemon in the Ou tier are steel type, that's nearly 20% of the pokemon their

3) Skarmory might stay in to brave bird thinking it's a physical variant.

4) My point was that steel types seem to shape the Ou, if their were less good steel types would their be as many steel types? Maybe, but their might be less. I think more types would be running around Ou that are otherwise walled by steel types

 

[Eaglehawk]

1) I didn't not say their should not be any steel types, what I was trying to say was, some of them seem kinda redundant. Forretress is exactly like ferrothorn except it spins while ferrothorn gets seeds.

2) 9/50 of the pokemon in the Ou tier are steel type, that's nearly 20% of the pokemon their

3) Skarmory might stay in to brave bird thinking it's a physical variant.

4) My point was that steel types seem to shape the Ou, if their were less good steel types would their be as many steel types? Maybe, but their might be less. I think more types would be running around Ou that are otherwise walled by steel types

I think it's more dragons. If there are a lot of Dragons, there will be a lot of steels, as Steel is the only type that resists Dragon.

 

[zerofield]

I don't find weather that bad, I use it occasionally but I tend to try to be different than others. I dislike how filled Ou is with steel types. I feel like some of them don't deserve to be Ou. I mean, if you pack a fire type move on your team, your next to guaranteed a ko even with rain up >.<

If everyone thought like you, we wouldn't have a metagame. or good teams running around. or voltturn. or any tactic that ends up with tons of usage because it's GOOD. OU is filled with steels for a reason and that's because most steels are very powerful. also, about pokemon not deserving to be OU? usage makes them OU. if they weren't good enough to be used a lot, they wouldn't be OU. however, they are.

by your logic, anything with a weakness to a relatively common type shouldn't be used. and as for fire moves always KOing under rain, ferrothorn lives some fire attacks outside of rain. scizor can actually take an hp fire from a celebi and not go down (albeit rarely). and under rain, bulky steels don't really care about your 2x damage. they can just sit there and take it. or, um, switch to one of those water-type pokemon that rain will always be carrying and scald/hydropump/surf your fire-type to death.

1) I didn't not say their should not be any steel types, what I was trying to say was, some of them seem kinda redundant. Forretress is exactly like ferrothorn except it spins while ferrothorn gets seeds.

2) 9/50 of the pokemon in the Ou tier are steel type, that's nearly 20% of the pokemon their

3) Skarmory might stay in to brave bird thinking it's a physical variant.

4) My point was that steel types seem to shape the Ou, if their were less good steel types would their be as many steel types? Maybe, but their might be less. I think more types would be running around Ou that are otherwise walled by steel types

1) forry plays a completely different role to ferrothorn, being able to spin away hazards while ferro can actually stall/wall things.

2) steels are GOOD.

3) no skarm would ever stay in vs infernape, physical or not.

4) again, steels are good. however, you see quite a few dragons around OU, and steel resists dragon. steels aren't making certain types worse, it's just that most steels are good enough to have the usage to be OU.

EDIT: 400th post yay

 

[Zachmac]

1) I didn't not say their should not be any steel types, what I was trying to say was, some of them seem kinda redundant. Forretress is exactly like ferrothorn except it spins while ferrothorn gets seeds.

2) 9/50 of the pokemon in the Ou tier are steel type, that's nearly 20% of the pokemon their

3) Skarmory might stay in to brave bird thinking it's a physical variant.

4) My point was that steel types seem to shape the Ou, if their were less good steel types would their be as many steel types? Maybe, but their might be less. I think more types would be running around Ou that are otherwise walled by steel types

1) Actually, Ferrothorn and Forretress have different roles. How many ferrothorns carry more then one hazard? I usually just see stealth rock or spikes, but never both, and it can't use leech seed with both either. I've seen and even used a Forretress with nothing but SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin and no actual attacking moves.

2) Okay, but that's because there are a lot of good steel types. They find themselves with lots of resistances, and steel is just about the only type you can expect to take a Dragon's outrage. I don't think having 20% of the OU metagame beings steels types matters too much anyway. I mean, it doesn't have a negative effect or anything.

3) Hahahahaha, you're hilarious. That is a joke, right?

No skarmory in there right mind would even stay in on an Infernape they know is physical. Even with that defense, STAB flare blitz will still be a lot of damage.

4) Let's see, in OU we've got water(multiple), fire(a few) and grass(Celebi, Virizion, Breloom). Check. Electric? That's 4. Psychic. 5. Dark. 6. Fighting. 7. Flying. 8. Ground. 9. Dragon. 10. Ghost. 11. Poison. 12. Heck, we even have a couple bugs. 13. Ice. Just mamoswine, but ice is a terrible typing even without steel. 14. Normal. 15. Rock. 16. Add steel, and we have 17 out of 17 types in OU. I don't see how OU lacks variety in types, then.

 

[Dragonicwari]

If everyone thought like you, we wouldn't have a metagame. or good teams running around. or voltturn. or any tactic that ends up with tons of usage because it's GOOD. OU is filled with steels for a reason and that's because most steels are very powerful. also, about pokemon not deserving to be OU? usage makes them OU. if they weren't good enough to be used a lot, they wouldn't be OU. however, they are.

by your logic, anything with a weakness to a relatively common type shouldn't be used. and as for fire moves always KOing under rain, ferrothorn lives some fire attacks outside of rain. scizor can actually take an hp fire from a celebi and not go down (albeit rarely). and under rain, bulky steels don't really care about your 2x damage. they can just sit there and take it. or, um, switch to one of those water-type pokemon that rain will always be carrying and scald/hydropump/surf your fire-type to death.

1) forry plays a completely different role to ferrothorn, being able to spin away hazards while ferro can actually stall/wall things.

2) steels are GOOD.

3) no skarm would ever stay in vs infernape, physical or not.

4) again, steels are good. however, you see quite a few dragons around OU, and steel resists dragon. steels aren't making certain types worse, it's just that most steels are good enough to have the usage to be OU.

EDIT: 400th post yay

You have some good points here, yes a fire type won't last against a water type (normally, speed and moveset can change that outcome though). Yeah I get that steels are good, However I still feel as though they outclass each other. No forretress has ever lasted long enough to get more than 2 layers of entry hazards up against me, while ferrothorns will actually last and do something. That's why I think it's outclassed by ferrothorn, though their are reasons to use forretress over ferrothorn (lack of fighting weakness, spinning) I still feel as though it's largely outclassed. I'm just going to get to the list because I dont want to repeat myself to much (I know it's going to happen)

1) already stated this in the above paragraph, yes they do separate things, but in personal experience one seems to outclass the other.

2) I'm not trying to say they aren't, I just don't feel as though they are as good as people think they are.

3) People have tried that against me, they might not have been the best, but they thought it was a good idea

4) steels have the only resistance to dragon, and that's why I feel their are so many running around Ou. And now their are steels in Ou to combat steels
congrats on the post, now onto zachmac...

1) Actually, Ferrothorn and Forretress have different roles. How many ferrothorns carry more then one hazard? I usually just see stealth rock or spikes, but never both, and it can't use leech seed with both either. I've seen and even used a Forretress with nothing but SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin and no actual attacking moves.

2) Okay, but that's because there are a lot of good steel types. They find themselves with lots of resistances, and steel is just about the only type you can expect to take a Dragon's outrage. I don't think having 20% of the OU metagame beings steels types matters too much anyway. I mean, it doesn't have a negative effect or anything.

3) Hahahahaha, you're hilarious. That is a joke, right?

No skarmory in there right mind would even stay in on an Infernape they know is physical. Even with that defense, STAB flare blitz will still be a lot of damage.

4) Let's see, in OU we've got water(multiple), fire(a few) and grass(Celebi, Virizion, Breloom). Check. Electric? That's 4. Psychic. 5. Dark. 6. Fighting. 7. Flying. 8. Ground. 9. Dragon. 10. Ghost. 11. Poison. 12. Heck, we even have a couple bugs. 13. Ice. Just mamoswine, but ice is a terrible typing even without steel. 14. Normal. 15. Rock. 16. Add steel, and we have 17 out of 17 types in OU. I don't see how OU lacks variety in types, then.

1) I'll repeat myself here; I find ferrothorn much better for my previously stated reasons, it lives for a while and can get hazard up

2) I feel as though it's to focused on steels is all, but your right, it could be because of the dragons. And psychics. I wonder what a dragonless metagame would look like...

3) as stated before, some people try, maybe out of desperation, but I don't know (I haven't ran infernape in a while)

4) my complaint is the sheer amount of steels, I'd like to see more of the other types, but that probably won't happen

I'm feeling like people don't think I know how tiering works. So I'm just going to double check; Ou, uu, ru, and nu depend on usage, and uber, bl and bl2 depend on just outclassing stuff, am I right or wrong here?

Forgot to quote eaglehawk: yes you might be right, it might just be the dragons, I think I used that argument somewhere on this post, it's a good one

 

[Zachmac]

I'm feeling like people don't think I know how tiering works. So I'm just going to double check; Ou, uu, ru, and nu depend on usage, and uber, bl and bl2 depend on just outclassing stuff, am I right or wrong here?

Sort of right. Uber/BL/BL2 are not about outclassing, but are about being broken and unhealthy for the metagame. OU/UU/RU and NU are based off usage, but they, in a way, are about outclassing other pokemon. People will use the best pokemon for each job, right? That would make their usage go up, so they'd be in a higher tier.

4) my complaint is the sheer amount of steels, I'd like to see more of the other types, but that probably won't happen

Meh. I don't see how that really matters much, but I think we get enough of each type.

 

[Dragonicwari]

@ zachmac, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the 4th, and possibly every other part. You do have some points I agree with, I won't deny that, but their are others that either I'm not getting, or I just disagree on.

 

[jesusfreak94]

Just saying, there are also nine Water and Fighting types in OU as well. Heck, Fighting types seem to be more centralizing than Steel right now.

And for the record, Ferrothorn most certainly does not outclass Forretress. Forretress spins, sets up Toxic Spikes, escapes Magnezone with Volt Switch, has a failsafe against powerful Fire attacks with Sturdy, is neutral to Fighting, and has a different set of resistances. It's also more physically bulky while not having the same special bulk. They're just so...different. Heck, Dragonite and Salamence are more alike than these two.

 

[Dragonicwari]

Just saying, there are also nine Water and Fighting types in OU as well. Heck, Fighting types seem to be more centralizing than Steel right now.

And for the record, Ferrothorn most certainly does not outclass Forretress. Forretress spins, sets up Toxic Spikes, escapes Magnezone with Volt Switch, has a failsafe against powerful Fire attacks with Sturdy, is neutral to Fighting, and has a different set of resistances. It's also more physically bulky while not having the same special bulk. They're just so...different. Heck, Dragonite and Salamence are more alike than these two.

Do you think that fighting types would be as centralizing as they are now without steel types? I think they would be slightly less used, I am not saying that their sole use is to take on steels, far from that.

It's a personal preference for me I guess, im not even going to bother with that fight, I've just never been as happy with a forretress as I have with ferrothorn.

I think I should note, that when I posted the original post about how many steels their were, either the new Ou list had not been published, or I had not looked at it. (if it was the latter it's because I wasn't suddenly playing an uber environment) The Ou list is larger now than last time I checked, and the last time I had checked, every pokemon that was in the Ou tier (bar 17 pokemon) were steel type or had a type advantage over steel types. Considering their is 3 types that are strong against the steel type, that means 4 types had easily made over 50% of the Ou metagame

 

[Zachmac]

Do you think that fighting types would be as centralizing as they are now without steel types?

Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, Forretress, Scizor. 5/9 aren't weak to fighting. Just saying.

Fighting isn't so popular because of steel, it's just a great offensive type with little that resist it. Just flying, bug and psychic, while flying/bug are stealth rock weak.

 

[jesusfreak94]

All of OU bar 16 Pokemon are Rock or have a type advantage over Rock.

 

[Zachmac]

Oh, I'd also like to add this.

The Ou list is larger now than last time I checked, and the last time I had checked, every pokemon that was in the Ou tier (bar 17 pokemon) were steel type or had a type advantage over steel types. Considering their is 3 types that are strong against the steel type, that means 4 types had easily made over 50% of the Ou metagame

Venasuar, Vaporeon, Tornadus, Tentacruel, Starmie, Salamence, Rotom-W, Reuniclus, Politeod, Latios, Latias, Jolteon, Jellicent, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Gyarados, Gengar, Espeon, Dragonite, Cloyster, Blissy and Alakazam. But let's take a closer look. Gastrodon s ground type, but that's not OU just because it's super effective against steel. In fact, it's known to be countered by Ferrothorn. Gastrodon is OU purely for it's ability to counter special attackers and rain teams. Donphan is there for rapid spin support and stealth rock, not for super effective hits on steel types. Dugtrio is there for a revenge killer and a trapper for the common T-tar and Ninetails. Gliscor only has two weaknesses, and both are mostly special while it's a physical wall anyway. It also has a key fighting resist. Landorus is for it's ability, along with great offensive coverage, good enough movepool, and some pretty good stats, and it also makes a good scarfer. Mamoswine is for it's amazing STAB coverage and stealth rocks, making it a good lead. Mienshao is there for it's stats, ability, and u-turn, making it a good hit and runner. Ninetails is there for instant sun, not for steel types. Conkeldurr can tank hits and hit back hard. There's more, I'm just not feeling like listing them.

Yeah, while hitting steel types hard factors into them being OU, less steel types probably won't affect a lot of the fighting/fire/ground pokemon. Especially ground.

 

[Dragonicwari]

@ Jesusfreak, rock types have a few more weaknesses. Water, grass, steel, ground, and fighting are just what come to my mind, so you are including almost every pokemon I was talking about (excluding fire types) and added a few more. Also, their is only 1 rock type that's ou, so I'd rather see more of them getting action, but I honestly dont see that happening any time soon.

@zachmac's first post: and this is why we have the Internet, to learn what we forgot at somepoint of our lives.

@zachmac's second post: as I said, it's larger now, so their should be more that aren't all strong against steel types. Ill admit fighting is a good offensive type, and I doubt a pokemon would ever become Ou because it could hit steel types hard (ok maybe magnazone) but they are obviously going to have other uses (unless you really hate steel types)

 

[Ninja Dewott]

^But it's one of the only three pokemon to have both shell smash and baton pass, the others being Smeargle and Huntail.

Meh, I'm not 100% sure how good those things actually are...

I'm pretty sure SmashPassing is illegal in NU anyway.

And, in all honesty, Gorebyss isn't hard to counter. For example, it's walled by Quagsire, Regice and (should anyone ever use it) Mantine. It's also outsped and OHKO'd by many scarfers, such as Rotom-S

 

[Primal Crusader V]

I'm starting to feel that Samurott is making it's way from UU to OU. I've seen that thing everywhere now, and it's starting to get on my nerves. Though I have to admit, it has a great movepool and a unique set-which is why it's making it's way to OU.

And indeed, it does feel as if Quagsire is making it's way up the Tiers. Man, and Haxorus should be uber due to it's above-average (emphasizing above[\B]) attack stats, sporting a bit of bulk,too. And I'd like to see Gigalith in, at the least, UU. Slow, but highly supportive after the use of Trick Room.

 

[overlordmewtwo]

^ I agree with Quagsire and Gigalith, but Samurott? No. I disagree on this one.

If you play lower tiers frequently, I see why Samurott would be seen, but if you're seeing it in higher tiers, either you're facing a newbie to the competitive environment (usually the case) or someone who's really good with Pokemon normally never seen. Samurott's moveset is terrible. It has barely enough to put a moveset together on both attacking ends of the spectrum. It also lacks the moves to be a proper wall.

EDIT: Just checked the Smogon tiers and Samurott is an NU. I don't know why you're seeing it in OU other than the reasons I said above.