• Hi all. We have had reports of member's signatures being edited to include malicious content. You can rest assured this wasn't done by staff and we can find no indication that the forums themselves have been compromised.

    However, remember to keep your passwords secure. If you use similar logins on multiple sites, people and even bots may be able to access your account.

    We always recommend using unique passwords and enable two-factor authentication if possible. Make sure you are secure.
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Synergy Punishment. [Battle Subway]

aquasuicune

Well-Known Member
You should be afraid of Thundurus. There are four of them in the Battle Subway:
922 | Thundurus | Bold | Chesto Berry | Thunderbolt | Protect | Toxic | Rest | HP/SpD
942 | Thundurus | Timid | Choice Band | Thunderbolt | Dark Pulse | Focus Blast | Grass Knot | Spd/SpA
962 | Thundurus | Jolly | Sitrus Berry | Wild Charge | U-turn | Crunch | Sky Drop | Atk/Spd
982 | Thundurus | Timid | Magnet | Discharge | Focus Blast | Volt Switch | Taunt | Spd/SpA

Calcs run using the Psypokes damage calculator and data from Smogon's research thread.
Your Starmie cannot even 2HKO Thundurus 1, who will always OHKO you back if it uses thunderbolt.
The situation against Thundurus 2 is even worse, as it will outspeed you and OHKO you even more handily with Thunderbolt, and do upwards of 80% damage with Grass Knot.
Thundurus 3 will easily OHKO with Wild Charge, 2HKO you with Crunch, and will even manage 60-66% with U-turn, while Starmie is still unable to OHKO it back.
Thundurus 4 will also outspeed and OHKO you will Discharge.

The situation is even more bleak for Masquerain, and I am too lazy to run the calcs for Lucario.


Anyway, this is just to illustrate that Thundurus poses a huge threat to this team. However, by the Thundurus appears, I think you could consider this team to be quite successful, as he won't come out until very late in your streak. Nevertheless, be aware.

Edit for completion: aaannyway, Lucario could even manage pretty well with a black belt, which will manage to boost both Aura Sphere and Vacuum wave without restricting your versatility as a choice item would. A Lum Berry should not be put out of consideration though, in case those Pranksters manage to land a hit. You'll probably want to spend your time killing them rather than resting.
 
Last edited:

peacemaker987

Custom User Title
If Yoom runs the sweeping spread w/Timid & Wise Glasses an Ice Beam would be doing around 93.5-110.29% on the first Thundurus(The bulkiest of the four.) Also, Starmie would be outpacing the other three due to a higher base speed; thus solving the problem at the cost of a bit of unnecessary bulk.

Tbh, with perfect IVs you'd only need 252Sp.A / 232Spe / 26Hp to outrun and KO any of the aforementioned Thunduri... idk, Thunduruses?
 
Last edited:

aquasuicune

Well-Known Member
So it turns out I'm stupid... When calculating Starmie's ideal level 50 stats, I forgot to actually add in IV's, so the stats are all super low. Nevertheless, Thundurus's electric moves will still OHKO all versions of Starmie, and all but the first will outspeed it as well. Starmie is now able to 2HKO the first Thundurus.
However, according to my calcuations, Starmie only manages to do 110.29% average to the other three and not the first, so I'm wondering where the discrepancy between my calculations and peacemaker's lies.

At any rate, a timid SpA/Speed Starmie with a life orb and Ice Beam takes care of the Thundurus problem most of the time, though I see Thundurus 1 still being a problem. However, no Battle Subway team can be perfect, and I think you've created an excellent one.
 

peacemaker987

Custom User Title
Oh whoops, wrong one ^^"

After a few calcs I found that Psyshock would do more damage shot-for-shot, and with LO it'll be around 78.32% for an easy revenge kill against the first one.
 
Last edited:

aquasuicune

Well-Known Member
I guess that works as a revenge kill, but I see Starmie leading in this team. Yoomtah has not specified otherwise.
 

randomn00b

Arcane Trainer
First, I wanna say I'm dissappointed about the randomn00b's and vandslaux's rates. You're supposed to give suggestions/improvements to solve problems, not to just state the problems.

@ Arbiter, I have to say I'm not going to switch Venomoth into a rock attack.

Everyone's right about the problem with Rock attacks.

Thanks Sceptilo, for stating the problem with Chansey.

I think the best way to solve both problems is to replace Cryogonal with Starmie.

Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EV's: 252 Spe / 252 SpAtk / 4 HP, Timid
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock

This still benefits the Quiver Dances while it's able to take down special walls with Psyshock. It's the impossible, made possible. T_T

But I see that there is still a kind off a weakness for Rock types here, so I'm going to replace Heatran with Lucario. Update will follow soon!

While I'm still busy, I'm going to replace Venomoth with Masquerain... :\ It has better coverage with Lucario and Starmie, and more opportunities to switch in.

I apologize for the brevity of my suggestions. I was in a rush but still wanted to point out a major flaw in the team. I'm well aware of the rules.

I will say that the new version of the team is much, much stabler. There's still an electric weakness, though. I would probably remove Rest on Lucario for Vacuum Wave
 

YOOMTAH

Let's dance~
^ Apologies accepted. :) I've seen you a few months here now, so I was kinda suprised to see a rate like that haha. It was still well seen though.

So, I'll give Starmie a spread of 252 SpAtk / 232 Spe / 24 HP, so it outspeeds every Thundurus. And if it can't KO it, hack I'll give it Choice Specs.

But, to be sure, does Thundurus 1 KO me with 252 HP EVs?
 

aquasuicune

Well-Known Member
Thundurus is going to OHKO you with an electric move with only HP investment.

However, I feel that Choice Specs may be too limiting within the Battle Subway, as your Starmie's greatest selling point is its versatility. With the exception of the first one, you're going to either OHKO all of them, or get very very close, at which point Lucario will have no problem revenge killing with Vacuum Wave. Remember that although Thundurus is a huge threat, there are only four of them out of nearly 1000 pokemon to be found in the subway. Zapdos is a similar problem, as he's just as strong and even more bulky. An interesting note is that even though Zapdos 1 and 4 will just Thunderbolt you, Zapdos 3 has to rely on Thunder+Rain Dance or Light Screen. Zapdos 2 is interesting in that its electric attack is Charge Beam, and I believe Starmie can not only survive one, but 2HKO in return.
 

YOOMTAH

Let's dance~
Haha I know, nerdrage makes people do stupid things.

Believe me, Zapdos 3 does not rely on Rain Dance. It'll strike you anyway.
 

aquasuicune

Well-Known Member
Of course not, but if the RNG is feeling generous, Thunder may miss for you.
 

Twilightphoenix

Elite Trainer
go with psychic on lucario since its weak to fighting type moves,and fighting types are not exactly slow to start with, and there are several priority fighting type attacks that can cause you trouble (vacume wave, mach punch) however they have realitivly low base power(40) so lucario should be able to survive one hit from one of these atks,unless its a critical hit, which will give you a chance to counter with psychic. put simply fighting type moves are not that effective against other fighting types, dark type moves deal neautral damage and if they have a high special def (like lucario) with a barrier they can more than likly survive one of these atks (yes i know lucario is weak to fighting type moves im just useing his spdef stat as an example) even if you pass on a quiver dance(unlikly that you will get 2 in as the bs is brutal espicaly the super line) how ever since psychic is super effective combine that with lucario's insane spatk stat and a quiver dance boost it should be a one hit k.o. no matter what, the exception is if they are holding a focus item in which case you need to be very lucky;this is highly unlike though most opponits will not put a focus item on a fighting type sweeper.
 

YOOMTAH

Let's dance~
I'm really not sure about Lucario. Either way I'm giving it Vacuum Wave, but I don't know what item to give him.
 

bug pro

Pearl on Phone
Ok, you convinced me there, but then I have one question: what item should I give Lucario?

The strategy has no set order. Starmie dishes out Pokémon, until things get dangerous and it switches out. Which makes me consider making Starmie bulky, because I kinda want it to be able to survive some random thunderbolts. I'll update that. Either way, Starmie is a very potential reciever of Quiver Dance.

I'm not too afraid of Thundurus, since his attacks don't get priority, and Starmie outspeeds and KO's it.
Never heard about wise glasses? —_—
 

YOOMTAH

Let's dance~
Never heard about wise glasses? —_—

Ofcourse I did, why would you even need to ask?

I want to use Lucario to it's best, so I'm considering more things then just powering up his SpAtk.

Unless you can convince me, which you can't if you don't have ANY arguments nor a more gentle way to give them, I'm not giving Lucario Wise Glasses.
 

Twilightphoenix

Elite Trainer
you could try an expert belt,powers up super effective moves,or you could give him a black belt to boost his fighting type moves(makeing vacume wave even more deadly),or a shell bell to restor hp after inflicting damage (but its not all that useful)
these are the only items i can think of that would be useful other than wise glasses
 

peacemaker987

Custom User Title
^He wouldn't be getting that many SE hits with only Fight/Dark, and tbh, Chesto Berry would be Yoom's best choice if Rest is here to stay. Tbh there aren't that many options outside of Wise Glasses. Air Balloon is a good way to avoid a common weakness during a setup (possibly Nasty Plot) or maby even King's Rock if there will be priority abuse.. meh.
 

Twilightphoenix

Elite Trainer
razor claw or scope lens would help with critical hits but your best bet would be the wise glasses or black belt if you get rid of rest considering that the rest chesto berry combonation only works once so if your in a tight spot and you have to use rest multipul times you can pretty much kiss lucario good bye.
 
Top