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Talonflame Discussion Thread

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by McDanger, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. naudna

    naudna Well-Known Member

    How about a golem with sturdy, rock poilsh, and weakness policy? Got swept by one on wifi.
     
  2. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Any form of priority works that strategy over. Being weak to Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave does it no favors. Things like Fake out and entry hazards can break its sturdy as well. And most common Scarf users still outspeed it after a Rock Polish.
     
  3. Roughneck JB

    Roughneck JB Well-Known Member

    For that to work at all, you would seriously need Sucker Punch, which Golem won't get until PokeBank, otherwise any priority attack user (ironically, including Talonflame), could end your 1 HP sweep at any moment
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  4. Amagidyne

    Amagidyne Sunny Dreams

    You guys are acting like needing to waste a moveset and a Pokemon slot on a Rapid Spinner/ Defogger is no biggie. It IS definitely an issue, regardless of whether everyone here is use to adding Starmie/ Tentacruel or whatever to their teams.

    Defog is still a rarity, the only worthwhile Defog user (one that does not take SE damage from switch) in Gen 6 is ummmm no one? Gen 5 has Shiftry (pushing it) and Scizor.

    While Gen 4 has Mew/Flygon/Empoleon from TM.

    At any rate, adding a rapid spin user forces you to compensate for it in other areas. >.>
     
  5. Roughneck JB

    Roughneck JB Well-Known Member

    While it's true that not many Defog users take neutral damage from SR, that's no reason not to class them as worthwhile. Mandibuzz is probably the best we can get right now, but at least she's bulky enough to come in on most neutral hits, use Defog, and Roost off the damage. With her also being a good check to many Ghosts (Aegislash in particular), and the buff to Foul Play, I'd certainly consider her...

    Flygon won't be a bad one when the time comes, either, and surely Skarmory learned it in HG/SS, too?
     
  6. McDanger

    McDanger Well-Known Member

    The problem with rapid spinners vs defog is rapid spin can be stopped, especially with how common ghosts are now thanks to the steel nerf, and how good aegislash is. Aegislash can beat most spinners 1 v 1, only notable one that it can't is excadrill, and possible analytic starmie. This makes defog generally superior as it can't be blocked outside of taunt, and its fairly easy to fit defogger on to a team, namely mandibuzz and scizor (mega scizor generally) due to their effectiveness in the meta, as well as mentioned above, skarmory is decent, while flygon has that now as a niche as well as being the one of the only defoggers to resist stealth rocks, and the only one to resist stealth rocks to also be immune to spikes. While defog does lead to 4 move slot syndrome, to an extent, its generally good enough that its not a big deal to add it in place of a move, flygon is still a good scout with u turn, earthquake, and draco meteor, while mandibuzz loses on whirlwind/toxic/u turn depending on what you need for your team. I feel that the only spinner that really deserves a mention is excadrill due to its resistances, and ability to pressure spin blockers namely, as i said, aegislash with earthquake, while gengar doesn't want to come in in fear of rock slide, while mega gengar is vulnerable to earthquake. However, defog is basically guarantied, which generally makes it superior to rapid spin on the teams that need it, while rapid spin is better if only 1 pokemon on the team needs support.
     
  7. Escalion

    Escalion Well-Known Member

    I don't think either Rapid Spin nor Defog is better than the other. It pretty much depends on what your team needs really. I for one would NEVER use Defog. I always use multiple hazards on my team, so having a Defog user would be a total waste of the effort I put into setting up my own hazards, so I will always go for a spinner. But if your team doesn't use/need that much hazards, or is weak to them, than the reliability of Defog to get hazards of the field is a huge advantage.

    But back to Talonflame, suicide set is the best imho. It really is working wonders for me, guaranteed to get a mon or 2 down.

    Talonflame @ Life Orb
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Flare Blitz
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance

    Awesome revenge killer, more consistent damage than the Acro set, and priority roost to heal off any damage.
    And as the calcs above show, it's a monster after a Swords Dance boost.
     
  8. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    how about teaching talonflame overheat while the rest of its moves do physical damage... its really unexpected and could ohko a scizor and ferrothorn without the recoil
     
  9. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    0 SpA (custom) Overheat vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 302-356 (92.35 - 108.86%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    (302, 306, 308, 312, 314, 320, 324, 326, 330, 332, 338, 342, 344, 348, 350, 356)

    Hmm. Not a horrible idea to be honest. I'm not sure how easy it would be for him to find a moveslot for it though, since most threats are hit much harder by Flare Blitz anyways (+2 Flare Blitz also OHKO's Skarmory)
     
  10. McDanger

    McDanger Well-Known Member

    Talonflame does have a mildly usable sp attack, but i`ld use a LO with it, something like

    Talonflame@life orb
    Naughty
    252 attack/4 sp attack/ 252 speed
    gale wing
    -brave bird
    -overheat / fire blast
    -roost/swords dance/return/hp ice
    -roost/swords dance/return/hp ice

    Tho overall i feel it could be inferior to a physical set
     
  11. Eaglehawk

    Eaglehawk Banned

    I wouldn't run HP Ice. With its new power nerf, it isn't as good of a coverage option on lower base stat Pokemon.

    Are you sure it doesn't get anything outside of Hidden Power or Special Fire moves?
     
  12. It gets Hyper Beam, probably Air Cutter and ****, yeah this thing doesn't have much special movepool.

    Not like it needs much else. +2 Brave Bird murders even stuff like Gliscor that HP Ice would actually be useful for.
     
  13. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Yeah, Sash Talonflame is a bit... pointless. It's not really a good lead (where it's guaranteed not to take SR damage, thus assuring Sash isn't broken just by switching in), being more suited towards being kept until lategame when everything is weakened and it can begin to systematically pick off weakened foes with its priority Brave Bird/Acrobatics. And with both Brave Bird and Flare Blitz relying on recoil, Sash is counterintuitive. Not using its strongest STABs because of Sash is a bit silly as well.

    Sky Attack is never viable. Power Herb means you literally get one attack where it doesn't have to charge up. That is not a good idea, ever, since you want to be able to spam its STAB, not only use it once and then never again. And Life Orb outdamages Sharp Beak while also powering up Flare Blitz.
     
  14. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    ...They're really not. You still see people trying to replicate Red's team, doing novelty monotype teams, doing generic in-game teams... Rated Matches are very accessible to anyone and doesn't really filter your opponents at all. The difference between Rated and Random is very miniscule.

    In any event, all in favor of moving on with this conversation due to the fact that the agreement of how viable Sash Talonflame is tends to be almost unanimous? Forcing you to forgo Brave Bird and Flare Blitz is a gimmicky strategy at best since they're such high-powered moves, and even Acrobatics sets have better alternatives that don't require you to be nearly obliterated to work.
     
  15. Agreed.

    As for viable Talonflame sets outside of the SD one, I have discovered CB Talonflame to be an amazing revenger. I'd post BB calcs, but I'm too lazy.
     
  16. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    I... sash talonflame is very helpful on your team and very annoying against you if you don't have a rotomW
     
  17. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    I could see that being viable not only as a Revenge Killer but also as a late-game cleaner. Once you get rid of the Steel and Rock types (or at least weaken them), there's not much to stop you from just spamming high-powered priority Brave Birds. Though given the nature of CB sets requiring a lot of switches, Defog/Spinner support would be mandatory, since Stealth Rock is always a threat, and you wouldn't be able to Roost.
     
  18. I've been using CB Talonflame a lot recently. And to say the VERY LEAST, it's amazing.
     
  19. McDanger

    McDanger Well-Known Member

    Seeing as I just needed to delete a page of post cause they were all off topic and useless to the discussion, i guess i need to make a statment. STAY ON TOPIC, arguments go to VMs
    Ghost dog: dont get worked up, scarcasm is common on the forums, but imposters right, as i said before, wifi, rated or not, is inferior experience wise to the simulators. Its a point of fact, more people use the simulators, and are generally more informed people, especially higher up on the ladder, its the best way to get experience and try different stuff.

    Back on topic, about mixed talonflame, its a set aimed to be a gimmack, much like dd latios, to get around threats such as genesect and scizor without the recoil of flare blitz, which i could see being useful as talonflame has crap longevity, while hp ice allows talonflame to beat threats such as dragonite and, namely zygard without brave bird/acrobatics as they fail to OHKO and leaves talonflame open to be revenged.
     
  20. Rapid Spin support is not hard to supply in the form of Mega Blastoise. For that matter, Talostoise is an amazing core and the two supplement each other very well. Throw in a Trevenant or something there and you have yourself a solid FWG core to build your team around.
     

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