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Talonflame Discussion Thread

Discussion in '6th Gen' started by McDanger, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'

    Damn, this thing only has ONE point higher in atk then Dugtrio and it's still so much of a threat.

    That's pretty amazing, but it does have 120 STABS, but it also has NO coverage outside of it basically.

    It's a weird threat. Mixed simply isn't viable is it?
     
  2. Talonflame is really powerful though. I use Heatran for it and HP Rock them out of the sky. Talonflame is significantly easier to handle in Pokebank with all the available Pokemon who can check it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2013
  3. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    I noticed that Hidden Power (Rock) is a lot more useful on Heatran now, even in Ubers. I'm not sure whether or not it generally outweighs Hidden Power (Ice), but it's definitely worth using now instead of being one of the forgotten Hidden Power types.
     
  4. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    people already have heatran in this game???
    where do you find it because I never knew
     
  5. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Ho-Oh seems to have become a bit more dangerous in Ubers now, especially since it sets up on Mega Scizor with ease. Plus with the Defog buff, Stealth Rock is not quite as damning as it once was, so fire and bug types have a chance to thrive a bit more than in generations past. And throw in Fairy types to ensure dragons can't just spam Outrage with impunity, and you've got a Metagame that gives HP Rock a chance to shine over the more traditional HP Ice.

    Amazing how things like this work out.
     
  6. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    No, he's talking about Pokebank OU, which is like OU except with everything released.

    Most competitive players play using simulators online these days (me being one of them).
     
  7. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    got it... anyway... talonflame is on my new battle box team and it owns with brave bird, overheat, tailwind, and fly
     
  8. CircuitAngel

    CircuitAngel Well-Known Member

    Fly is a pretty terrible move from a competitive standpoint. I would switch that out for Quick Attack, also since Overheat runs off SpA you are running a Mixed Talonflame, you may get more mileage out of Flare Blitz and focusing on Attack.
     
  9. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    that's the whole idea bro! overheat to catch trainers off guard when they try to send in scizor or ferrothorn!!
    and since I don't have any other SpA moves, the recoil wont hurt at all!!!
     
  10. CircuitAngel

    CircuitAngel Well-Known Member

    Here's the issue. Talonflame works best when focused. Overheat is an interesting option on him, and the idea has some novelty; but in the long run, Flare Blitz is a better return on your investment when running with Bravebird. Yes Flare Blitz hurts you, but it prevents an EV split. Scizor and Ferrothorn are not things that Talonflame is particularly worried about, as Flare Blitz is still x4, is getting the boost from your (presumably) Adamant nature, and (presumably) Attack EV investment.

    Futher, while one Overheat, in some niche situations, may be better than one Flare Blitz; you are going to force yourself out against some opponents faster. For example, if you Overheat Scizor, your opponent now has a much easier time switching in anything that resists Flying.
     
  11. CircuitAngel

    CircuitAngel Well-Known Member

    While recoil moves do come with their downsides, the fact is they are reliably powerful over and over. Talonflame can also run with Roost to offset that damage. Overheat just causes too many issues for me personally. It is not about Kamikaze style to me, it is about consistency. Flare Blitz will have consistent performance if Talonflame stays in, Overheat will not.
     
  12. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    I saw a decent mixed set about a week ago that was mainly used as an anti-lead on PS. Overheat, Roost, HP Ground, and Brave Bird, if I remember correctly. Somebody apparently somewhat well-known from Smogon was testing it or something.
     
  13. Aura Flare Riolu

    Aura Flare Riolu Cutest Riolu around!

    It's a shame it doesn't get Hurricane or Air Slash (Or even Air Cutter for that matter) because a Special Set could have been viable.
     
  14. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    Ok, think about this... against a common steel type like steelix, which would do more damage an uninvested overheat? or an invested flare blitz?
     
  15. McDanger

    McDanger Well-Known Member

    lol at steelix being common, thing is most steels switch out at the sight of talonflame in favor of something that can handle it such as Rotom wash and tyranitar, who take less from overheat then flare blitz. Overall circuit is right, tho most of the time the opponent wont sac a steel on talonflame, if any other fire move was a good idea on talonflame it would be will o wisp to cripple tyranitar and annoy rotom wash
     
  16. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Implying Steelix is commonly used.

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Yeah, no.

    Common steel types include Scizor, Genesect, Ferrothorn, Aegislash (big time), (Mega) Lucario, Heatran, Excadrill, and (Mega) Aggron. The only one you might have a case about would be Mega Aggron, but that's only because of the extreme difference between its Defense and Special Defense. Most other things are absolutely outdamaged by a fully invested Flare Blitz, especially in the case of Choice Band and SD sets.

    And that's assuming they stay in on Talonflame in the first place. Most steel types not named Heatran know to GTFO when Talonflame is in the battle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  17. ghost_dog97

    ghost_dog97 the sweeper

    instead of laughing sarcastically, why don't you answer the stupid question
    plus im talking about bulky steel types like (on your list) scizor, ferrothorn, aegislash, heatran, and aggron
     
  18. Heatran has immunity to either Fire attack. Mega Aggron takes about the same due to the SAtk drop and the fact that flare blitz can be boosted. The others die either way, and Flare Blitz hits other things harder. Flare Blitz > Overheat as sole fire move, or fire move in general
     
  19. Eon Master

    Eon Master Born from the Flames

    He did. So did mcdanger. Most Steel-types will be hit harder by fully invested Flare Blitz than an uninvested Overheat. The question itself is irrelevant because nobody with actual intelligence is going to keep a Steel-type in against Talonflame unless they don't have a choice. At that point, they're probably too screwed for it to matter whether you use Overheat or not.

    Seriously. Don't just get annoyed when other people mock you for not knowing things. Listen to the rest of what they say, and don't even bother rising to the taunts. It's usually done in jest or just not directed at you, and they'll usually answer your question anyway.
     
  20. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Heatran isn't going to be included, given neither Flare Blitz nor Overheat affects it at all.

    Let's assume a Life Orb for a fair chance, and without an SD boost, since Choice Band or being at +2 guarantees Flare Blitz will outdamage.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 816-967 (237.2 - 281.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Scizor: 624-738 (181.3 - 214.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    ...Both are a 1HKO, although Flare Blitz overkills the standard Scizor so hard that it's not even funny. That's enough to 1HKO even if rain or reflect is up.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 48+ Def Ferrothorn: 567-671 (161 - 190.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 421-499 (119.6 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Still a 1HKO on standard Ferrothorn either way. Flare Blitz still outdamages though.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 289-343 (89.1 - 105.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 198-237 (61.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Speaks for itself. Univested Overheat can't 1HKO Shield Forme, but Flare Blitz can. Not even gonna bother with Sword Forme since I think we all know it'll be 1HKO'd in that form regardless.

    Mega Aggron is the exception.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Aggron: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Aggron: 237-281 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    In this case Overheat does outdamage, but it's still a 2HKO either way.

    The question becomes whether or not it's worth it to carry the move specifically to outdamage Mega Aggron when it's still a 2HKO either way. And the answer to that question would be no, it's not really worth it when there's much more viable moves to carry. Roost, Swords Dance, U-Turn, even Will-o-Wisp would be better.
     

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